If we are doubting women who are coming out about it now (some of them who have become powerful women or at least cultural icons) how much would they have been believed as a teenager or a nobody? That is part of why more women do not come forward. 1) they fear they will not be believed 2) The shame\guilt they feel that it happened shame\guilt is a very crippling emotion many of these women come out of these incidents wrongly thinking they are to blame and it sometimes takes years for them to realize they are not to blame and regain their voice.\ 3) We put them on trial. For whatever reason when a woman comes forward about rape or molestation she is the one that gets put on trial rather than where the focus needs to be. She faces questions like What were you wearing, What time was it, Why where you in that place ect ect. 4) Sometimes they don't come forward from the fear of harm to them or to loved ones. In 2014, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published a large national study providing much needed national data about rape and sexual assault. Some of the findings include: • Nearly 1 in 5 or almost 23 million women in the United States have been raped in their lifetime.1 • Approximately 1 in 71 or 1.9 million men in the United States have been raped in their lifetime.2 • Of those surveyed, 43.9 percent of all women and 23.4 percent of all men experienced some form of sexual violence during their lifetime, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences.3 Over 95,000 rapes were reported in 2016. If that was the reported number the actual number is anywhere from 380,000 to 617,000 depending on which dark figure multiplier you believe (and some say the dark figure multiplier is low).
If a group of women who call themselves "feminists" exclude another group of women who do not agree with abortion and hold themselves to be Christian, Jewish, Hindu , Muslim or any other religion, then they ill define what a feminist is. They ought to try and re-define what they truly are. And speaking about bad definitions, your description of what a Christian woman represents is total crap. And you have no relevance as an arbiter or defining entity of what a woman's rights are as to whether or not a woman is entitled to kill a human being resident in her body. That is a human live tethered to another one, It is two souls not one who can arbitrarily be killed by the selfishness of the other. Perhaps this is where God fucked up when he thought that his "human beings" could understand that "life" begins at conception and that "motherhood" also begins there also. Clearly he didn't get his point across to the murderous liberals in this current world where a pike can be inserted into the birth canal to destroy a human beings scull and a vacuum hose inserted to suck up the remains of a human being only to be thrown into some trash bin or flushed down a dirty toilet.The monsters of the abortion movement who call themselves "feminists" are in effect complicit in the murders of hundreds of innocent children and are evil. Yes, evil. And when I read the assessment of a person who hates the views of Jesus Christ as having some kind of self proclaimed relevance on the issue of what feminism is, I have to puke.
I have a hard time remembering last week compared to what happened to me in grade school or High School. so another issue with past attacks on women or men is the DETAILS about it. How good is there memory? And don't give me - "you would remember being raped." The details before and after it? I mean 30-40 years ago ? No one has that great of a memory to recall EVERY DETAIL. Another reason why waiting, although it's fear, is an big problem.
I wouldn't say you're absolutely wrong but I think if you put yourself in the mind of feminist, I realize that's asking a lot, you'd probably view it differently. Let's just take Muslims for example....is there a religion on Earth that treats women worse than Islam does? Women hold almost no voice in the Muslim world. So how could a person identifying as a true feminist also welcome Islam with open arms? I agree they shouldn't be excluding others based on religion. But the abortion thing....that's a pretty hard sticking point to most feminists I know. I completely disagree. Can you honestly say the bible, Christianity's main book of everything, holds women as equal to men? Can you honestly say that over the course of the church's history....women have been held as equals to men? I'm a person sharing an opinion on a message board....no different than you. A woman's body is hers...I fully believe that. I am 100% against late term abortions for any reason outside of survival. There should be a hard line drawn in the sand. I'm against abortion repeatedly being simply used as birth control for irresponsible people. But at the end of the day....my body belongs to me. I wouldn't want anyone telling me what I can or can't do with it. And I shouldn't be above a woman when it comes to that. Unless you can definitely prove a soul exists, and I'm 100% certain you can't, that argument is moot. I'm honestly not a fan of abortion outside of ending an early unwanted pregnancy that has come as the result of rape, abuse, incest, and any other situation where a woman was impregnated without her consent. I think it's a tool used far too often in situations where a girl simply made a dumb mistake and wasn't responsible. I don't completely agree abortions are morally okay in those situations. But I also don't believe I, or anyone else, has the right to tell that woman what she can and can't do so long as it's done early in the pregnancy. This is a political discussion and not a metaphysical one. God doesn't play a role in this debate because you can't prove his or her existence and god has no bearing on law. If god failed to deliver a message correctly....maybe he/she/it isn't truly the omnipotent deity his followers claim he is. Maybe the bible lied about he/she/its power. I'm sorry you need to puke...I hope you didn't have to pay for the food you regurgitated.
I don't think anyone is defending not coming forward and waiting until years later. I think the point is there are reasons and circumstances that prevent women and men from coming forward and I think you are simply ignoring those reasons. It is totally possible they don't remember it all clearly. It's possibly they have repressed memories,...a very common occurrence in physical or emotional abuse situations. We can't wave these accusations away simply on the grounds that they waited to long to come forward.
I'm not ignoring anything. If something happened to you - come forward. I think it helps your case if you come forward quickly versus 30 yrs later. That's all I'm saying there. Plus the evidence, if any, is fresher too.
No one disagrees with you. I think we would all love if people came forward right away. There happen to be reasons why most people don't, however.
It is inclusive to men only when the perp is another man, that at least is all ive seen, but if you've seen more please share, you know im open-minded. Ask yourself, have you seen many references to men being victims of harassment/abuse from women with regards to the #metoo movement? Is it something you yourself have taken the time to highlight online or elsewhere, without me prompting? With all due respect, i highly doubt the answer to either question is yes. I haven't seen anything in the #metoo movement to suggest it is particularly inclusive of men. In fact in the case of idiots like Tom Hanks(another under-qualified, over-opinionated talking head celebrity), who has stated that all men should basically shut up and let women do all the talking, it not only re-enforces this exclusion, it actually perpetuates the very thing we should be getting away from. The irony of Hanks deciding that basically one half of the entire population was unworthy of contributing to the cause of advancing equality, was not lost on me at all. This is undeniably true of course. But i think the reality is that we're not at a point in the story yet where, frankly, enough people care. While this is understandable, for now..... the hope is we get to that point one day. We kinda have to in fact, otherwise any drive for true equality will have failed ultimately. I mean i guess we could embrace the BS "all men are shits, women are saints" narrative like firehalo, but personally i don't find that very progressive. Yes. Flawed thinking in both instances that hopefully people of both sexes can get away from. I take the point you are making and know you aren't saying it is ok in the case of the female teacher, but when i was sexually assaulted by my female lecturer in my 2nd year at University, there was no patting myself on the back and no looking for high 5's from my buddies. It wasn't ok on any level. It was an unacceptable abuse of power. People were charged with being communist spies under the Espionage Act were they? If so that would be a crime. Furthermore, to catfish's statement about the recalling of information from many years prior.... during the McCarthy hearings weren't suspects asked to recall exact details of events/wherabouts going back 10years or more? Things that you can't reasonably expect a person to answer. And when suspects who couldn't answer the question and invoked the 5th amendment to protect themselves, didn't prosecutors use that very invoking as proof of guilt? There's a famous quote about this that i can't remember. Anyway, catfish's correlation of some of the accusations stemming from #metoo and McCarthyism, has validity imo.
Those were some pretty shocking numbers Jeanquev. I haven't seen those before. Well found, thanks for sharing.
was she hot? I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. in all seriousness, no that is a bad use of power and you're up against a paid employee of the college who they respect so it's your word vs her's. tough call. when I was in college, I wanted to fight a final grade I got. I had the proof it should be an A and the extra credit project that should've guaranteed any B was now going to be an A. I went to my advisor about it. He said "you have a solid case, but you may have had a low B and the final exam and extra credit weren't enough to fight it." I said " I want to fight it." He said "she is the Department Chairperson." "She's been here 15 yrs, you won't win bc your case is not airtight and if you lose, it will not look good that you took the Department Head to a grade case and lost!" So I didn't fight it and took the freaking B. To me all I wanted to know was why didn't I get an A? What was my grade going into the final? What was my final grade? Was it a 88? 89 or 90 etc. How much was the extra credit worth? If I had a low B then tell me. There was no explanation from her. I didn't think asking her was a big deal. We didn't need to go to the Dean of Students and the school board about it but all grade cases asking for a change in grade after they were posted warranted to present your case in front of the Dean and board. To me her Title and authority casted fear over a fellow tenured professor to tell me to not fight her. THAT'S POWER of a different sort !
It's most definitely not okay on any level. Lets clarify something here.....McCarthism by definition is making accusations of treason WITHOUT evidence. That's what McCarthy did. That's separate from the actual folks like Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs that were actually convicted of being spies. The number of people questioned and accused during the mid to late 40's into the 50's versus the number of people who actually committed crimes was staggering. McCarthy went nuts and went after people who had signed up for the American communist party at one time in their life (not a crime), read Communists literature (not a crime), were born in soviet countries (not a crime), and those were just the more credible reasons. I don't see the correlation to this metoo mess.
people being blackballed without proof is the correlation BWW. Anthony Rapp had a clear pinpoint story of the night Spacey attacked him. That's had dates, times and places. That's proof BWW. Dozens of women saying "yeah Weinstein is a dirty old pervert" is not proof. It's just a blanketed statement to jump on the pile already on Weinstein. Give me proof and not statements. People's lives are being ruined by statements vs by revealing truth or proof. Now some like Louis CK admitted he pulled down his pants in front of the 3 women who stated so. That's proof. Saying "Harvey Weinstein raped me," is a powerful statement with no other proofs of facts to back it up ! People got blackballed bf and are being blackballed now. And Oscar Winner Casey Affleck declined to present at this year's Oscar ceremony for a closed incident he was involved in 8 freaking years ago. He handled his business, but others felt he's a part of the problem vs woman, and he didn't want to be a distraction, so he declined. That's bullshit! James Franco felt relieved he WASN'T Nominated this year for Best Actor over the backlash he would face over his accusations like from Ally Sheedy who provided 0 evidence of facts or any story of what happened. just a tweet some crap about him wearing a METOO# pin at the Golden Globes. That's bullshit too. If you're going to expose someone or throw someone under the bus in the public's eye - you better have freaking proof !
Its also more likely to bring down a "nobody actor" (pre-star Spacey) instead of a big star (Oscar-winner Spacey), so I disagree with Cat's reasoning. Cops in the 80s would've loved the chance to bring down a "kiddie-loving homo-pedo". Are you kidding? Rapp had way more to lose bringing his story up when he did. He's still a working actor. On the other hand, If he had ratted out Spacey back when the incident happened, Spacey probably would've been pinched and in prison for "buggery of a minor" and Rapp would've been ostracized as a "whistle-blower", aka troublemaker and most likely would be working a regular job today.
What if someone has 19 different, unrelated accusers, but their stories are all consistent with each others? Is that a pattern? Is that proof?
That is a misleading comment. Who has been blackballed? Weinstein has been accused of a shit ton of bad stuff. He went into hiding and was removed from his roles at Miramax and other companies. That's pretty standard practice in our current society. Kevin Spacey was removed from a Netflix show....and he didn't really deny that he did something wrong. Other people have stepped down, voluntarily, from companies they run...like Russell Simmons. Who's been blackballed? I don't see tons of people running to the mans side to defend him, do you? Isn't that somewhat telling? You do realize proving a lot of these accusations will prove difficult, no? These are people coming forward and detailing their experiences....there hasn't been a lot of police or legal action behind it. I don't see blackballing occuring....I see a social awakening happening. I think it's sad that you attempting to almost defend sexual predatory actions. Or at least devalue them. He didn't have to decline. That was his own doing.....that doesn't equal being blackballed. Take it up with him if you think it's bullshit. So a woman can only come forward if she has actual evidence. I'm sorry....but that's bullshit. What if there is no evidence outside of knowing it happened? Do you think every rape is accompanied with hard evidence? Or every overtly sexual comment? Do you think every time a woman in Hollywood has been put on the casting couch and made to feel like an object rather than a person....that there, to this day, exists hard factual evidence that the incident occured? I'm confused by your stand on this subject, honestly.
I only know one man who has shared the information of a sexual assault of him by a woman. The information was shared in the context of #METOO but his embarrassment and self-condemnation was a pretty accurate mirror for the rest of us women who were sharing stories. I applaud any man who can find the strength and wherewithal to speak their truth like this. It's hard enough for a woman who is surrounded by and supported by huge numbers of other women to share this kind of trauma but for a man to stand alone and share? That takes guts. In his situation (much like yours Ev) the woman was his superior (at work) and he felt powerless to change what happened. His experience dates back about 15 years and he was able to recount to me every single detail of what happened and how he felt at the time. Someone mentioned that they found it hard to believe that people can remember details of assaults from 20 years ago or more and I wanted to say that it is entirely plausible and completely possible. This isn't something that you forget. That's no better than what is happening right now. It's that kind of thinking that has to change. Every person is an individual and their gender should not be a reason for them to be treated differently. That takes a truckload of courage to relate Ev. You make me feel like I should be braver It's so hard, almost impossibly hard to talk about the pain of rape and sexual assault. To have been threatened by promises of repercussions if I spoke up, promises that still jump into my nightmares so many years later. I was 11 years old when I was raped by a colleague of my father, while lying in my bed during a party that my father and mother were hosting. In my bed where I lay surrounded by my dolls. That was the 1st time and there were 2 more that happened as I got older. Random sexual assaults could and did happen several times a year. The last time I was assaulted was June of last year, by a friend of my husband's. You know what he said when my husband confronted him? He had had too much to drink and I looked hot in my short golf skirt. Somehow it was my fault? That's the mindset that keeps this crisis alive and well. And you'd better believe that this is a fucking crisis. There's a good reason why I got my certification in tai chi. No one will EVER touch me against my will again. Ever. [/QUOTE]
I assume that's Weinstein ? I didn't feel like digging up every accusation about him. it's a pattern for sure. in a court of law, it's not.
bww- I'm not going to respond to your 5 reposts in 1 post if you are confused by my stand and actually think I am defending the accused here. the way you make it sound - anyone can cry wolf and be believed to be a victim - proof of evidence or not. you even say some evidence doesn't have to exist. well why don't we toss out the entire legal system if evidence doesn't need to be shown anymore. I've stated all along, I think many of the women are victims, but some are just piling onto the fire. Ally Sheedy posted a snide comment about Franco and then deleted it. That's bullshit. Either state your evidence of what he did or shut the hell up. She slandered him with no evidence. Weinstein now has an email from Ben Affleck that Rose McGowan told him the sex between her and Weinstein was consensual and nothing else. Well that changes her story doesn't it?? You bet it does. Again many are telling the truth Bears. I just think some are piling onto the fire.
