That is doomsday rubbish... This team has been able to re-sign in house free agents in the past, despite their ineptitude in the front office for 19 years...I have no idea why everyone would all of a sudden assume they will be unable to do so moving forward. In fact, they would have had one re-signed THIS year if he had simply signed the contract instead of moving out to see his value... Again, I am going on assumption, but with a system in place, I would also believe analytically speaking, they would be able to identify a players worth in advance of them hitting free agency and those extension talks will take place the year before their contract has ended, which makes more sense than the way Farmer was doing things by waiting until the contract runs out to begin negotiations. It is really naive to think these Harvard educated men will simply roll the dice and assume players will either sign their contract or enter free agency, without ever negotiating with them prior to the contract running out in future dealings. They lose all leverage once that happens and analytics will surely tell them signing a year early saves millions of $$. You are also assuming every man that has a contract will be wanting to pick up and move their family to another city.... All of this is very unrealistic. You are also assuming every spot on this roster is currently a hole...With proper coaching, we actually shouldn't assume anything at this point. Currently, unless they make a lot of trades to negatively affect the # of picks, the Browns have the following: 2016 10 draft picks 2017 7 draft picks and a high probability of 4 compensatory picks ((3)-4th and a 5th, which will also become commodities in the 2017 draft being allowable trade picks) 2018 7 draft picks Which already has us at 28 draft picks, not 21 over the next 3 drafts There are 22 starting players, not all of which need replacing... Again, I will use the term doomsday way of thinking, that if drafted properly, this team cannot be built to compete within 3 years...IF they manage to identify a QB. With out the QB, this is all a moot argument, as nothing will work regardless.
Because for the past several years Cleveland has been a place to come, receive a massive payday and do two things on game day: jack and shit. Add on top of that the fact that every regime that's been through here has never lasted through their own rookies' contracts and had the chance to re-sign them. That situation could be avoided by negotiating with players before they enter the final month of their contract. It was a poor decision made by an inept and over-whelmed first-time GM (Farmer). That will become difficult going forward since 2016 free agency saw so much money flying around. Any agent worth his billing would be wise to advise their clients to hit free agency and get more money for their services than any home-town contract would be. In the case of Schwartz, he (and his agent) dramatically over-valued his worth, projecting LT dollars, and were let down when they had to take a lesser deal in Kansas City. At the same time, he's going to a playoff-caliber team with a stable QB situation, elite defense, and upward-pointing offense, so maybe the $500,000 a year is a little easier to swallow. I think they still have yet to flush out their analytics so they cannot apply the "true value" to anyone, yet. Combine that with a massive house cleaning and they're basically just banking on No. 1 overall next season. Mack, Benjamin, and Gipson all got more money than Cleveland would offer. All of them moved to warmer weather citites. All of them moved to franchises that were more stable, more successful, and had more potential than the Browns. I find it highly unrealistic that anyone would want to sign in Cleveland unless they were paying more than any other bidder. I get what you're saying, since I think Pettine's staff was a joke to most of the other head coaches and staffs around the League, but a 3-13 team just lost six of its best players (seven if you include Bademosi as an ace on special teams). Somewhat subjective, but... Talented Players LT - Joe Thomas LG - Joel Bitonio TE - Gary Barnidge CB - Joe Haden *WR - Josh Gordon Servicable Starters RG - John Grego ROLB - Paul Kruger RE - John Hughes III/Desmond Bryant MLB - Demario Davis Replacements Needed SS - Donte Whitner (cut) WR - Travis Benjamin (lost UDFA) RT - Mitch Schwartz (lost UDFA) FS - Tashaun Gipson (lost UDFA) CB - Tramon Williams HB - Isaiah Crowell QB - Josh McCown LE - Randy Starks (cut)/Xavier Cooper FB - Malcolm Johnson Jury Still Out DT - Danny Shelton LOLB - Nate Orchard MLB - Chris Kirksey (entering final year of rookie deal) C - Cam Erving That's at least nine spots that need to be completely replaced and the current in-house prospects are either completely unproven or completely unable. On that, we definitely agree.
Well, so far you have spent approx. 10 of those 28 picks to field an O-Line and provide backups. Now, consider this; You have two D-linemen under contract through 2018 (Shelton & Cooper) and one (Hughes) through 2019. D. Bryant is only good through 2017. Everyone else is done after this year. Linebackers? Only Nate Orchard is good through 2018. D,Davis, C. Kirksey, Kruger and Carder are gone after 2017. Mingo, Tuggle and Solomon are done after this year. Looks like you will need 10 more to restock the D-line and LB corps. And we haven't even addressed the putrid QB talent, the Defensive secondary, Running backs (4 out of 5 are done after THIS year) or Wide Receiver. And, OBTW, of the specialists (P, K & LS) on special teams, 2 out of 3 are gone after this year. You want to call this doomsday rubbish . . . I call it facts.
Actually it was 3 if you read the post...Not sure where you are coming up with 10 picks...I also stated clearly, I assume they can spend minimum money on backups through free agency.. They WILL BE FORCED to spend some money in free agency. They can't merely have rookies through their contracts and only replace the roster with other rookies...it is fiscally impossible. Just like you taking my 3 draft picks in 3 drafts and calling it 10? That kind of facts? Building through the draft does not mean abandoning free agency completely. That is the doomsday talk, I am referring to. In fact we can add backup talent through the cap casualty market and not incur compensatory issues. So getting maximum compensatory picks during the first couple of years is desireable in this environment, yet you are still getting veteran backups. Ala, guard Alvin Bailey, who we signed 3 year contract this off season.
Actually, it was four. Don't know where I came up with the number 10. My bad. But you're assuming that the rookies drafted first (2016) will get re-signed before the existing players drop off. I don't share that particular enthusiasm based on what I've seen so far.
I believe what we have seen so far is a new management team getting their bearings. Do you all actually think they have re-signed their last internal free agent?
Its the whole point of how their going bout doing things....when they do over pay just a little for a guy they will b stuck and other players will point that out on any negotiating talks...if they really liked Schwartz, playing hardball tactics will never win cause there are 31 other teams out there that can make an offer
If they really liked Schwartz, he would be in a Browns uniform. Ugh, It wasn't about a single free agent win or loss. Schwartz was never going to be the catalyst to a playoff team. They are no where near that caliber of a team. Schwartz can be replaced. that is the whole point. It set precedence. Now when the team goes to an agent with an offer the year before the player hits free agency, the agent will have in the back of their mind, that offer won't be there after the season is over, we need to sign it now or risk losing it. That's how you get home team value, not because a player wants to stay SO BADLY that they go to the team and state they will play for them for $2M a year less than somewhere else. As this team comes together, consistency will be desired and they will begin re-signing their own young players. This is football, not baseball. Hue Jackson will want familiarity. Right now, there is no familiarity because it is all new schemes. It amazes me, everyone screams on here about getting consistency, yet the very first practice hasn't happened yet and many are already talking about how bad this regime is. It takes time to evaluate an entire team. There might be some small mistakes made the first few months of a regime change...I would rather lose a Mitchell Schwartz than sign someone out of haste and be stuck with him for 3-4 years because you can't afford to get out of his contract. Not saying we would be stuck with Schwartz, but some of the other free agents that walked may have been because of evaluations. Time will tell...I can guarantee we haven't seen the whole regime history in the 3 months they have been together.
15 games played, 1 start. 9 tackles, 1 assist. Nope. Pasztor: 27 starts, 13 sacks allowed, 8 penalties. NOPE Bowie: 8 starts, 5.5 sacks allowed, 2 penalties NOPE I thought we agreed we were not excited about Moore's signing? Yea, he's on he roster, but he's a stop-gap who will underwhelm come regular season. But still bad and in need of replacement. Bad and in need of replacement. Robert Griffin III is the for sure replacement, but there's a LOT of questionmarks surrounding him. No, just the worst-rated FB in the NFL last season and a blocking-style fullback that contributed to one of the worst run offenses in the NFL. Just because they're on the roster doesn't mean we don't need to badly upgrade the position.
Where did that come from? Your personal computer? NFL Draft Scout projected 4th round ESPN projected 4th round Walter projected 4th round Finally...Drafted 4th round... He is a run stopper, in the mold of Donte Whitner. No one is expecting this SS to go out and get 15 passes defensed and 6 INTs, what he will do is play within the box and can cover the TE or RB over the middle while snuffing the run.
The rest are need fillers...I am not saying they will be potential pro bowlers. I know there are a lot of fans out there the expect the Browns to miraculously put pro bowlers at every position, but it's time for a reality check. Will Pazstor be as effective as Schwartz at RT? Probably not, but Schwartz was rated as the 2nd best RT in the NFL last year...Pazstor played pretty damn good as a reserve starter in place of Bitonio though...Those 13 sacks, when did they occur? His first season, or recently? Players grow, what I saw from him ON THE FIELD last year, was that he is a player capable of playing in this league. What I don't know is if he can be as effective in the RT position, or if he is only a guard at this level...End is, we don't know that he can't play RT which was my point. I'm not overly excited about Rahim Moore either, but if he can stay healthy for 16 games, he may contribute as much as the free agent that every one is pissed off left for his payday. He is a stop gap, waiting for a replacement. But at least we don't have $7M a year wrapped up in a guy that can't stay healthy. Tramon Williams was a pretty nice CB until our illustrious coaching staff got hold of him last year. My hope is that this coaching staff will get him back on track. Isaiah Crowell, while I don't think he is an every down back, I certainly think he can/will be a productive committee RB. You must realize this kid got over 700 yards in a pass happy offense in 2015..what did you expect out of him? I don't know where all the hate is coming from, for Crow. Malcolm Johnson's role was on the bench last year. I don't think they utilized him AT ALL, except on pass plays. I can't say he is a good run blocker, because I've never seen him run block..is that on him, or the coach that pulled him on running plays? I would definitely say he could be replaced...but how hard could it be to replace a FB in a league that doesn't use FBs? This is a rather low grade need really, isn't it?
Irish, we need 2 stop w the defensive coaches on every defensive player....thats an old excuse that when the play starts either the talent takes over in 1 on 1 situations or it doesnt....u may not have been a fan of O'Neill but he was already hired in the NFL as a DC....Williams was AWFUL and not a heady player....he had 2 rank as one of the worst DBs in the league
The "reality check" is that 50+ percent of our roster wouldn't start for another NFL team. We're a building franchise that has four solid players to build around and a few unproven rookies... outside of that? Hot garbage. I don't expect Pro Bowlers at every position and I also don't expect more than two wins next season. Agree to disagree on Pasztor. An undrafted player who lost his job in Jacksonville to another undrafted player doesn't reassure me. Is the part in bold not what I said? Tramon Williams was another aged player who came to Cleveland for a payday and who's play went to crap shortly thereafter. He single-handedly cost us two wins last season on special teams alone. The only reason he wasn't cut probably has to do with dead money in his contract. Besides reports that he is/was lazy, couldn't beat out a guy we traded for a seventh round pick, and averaged 3.8 yards per carry? 706 yards, to be exact. Good enough for 25th overall in the NFL. Everyone below him was either a back-up (Crowell is credited with nine starts last season) or a quarterback. Only Melvin Gordon and Alfred Blue were worse starting RB options, averaging 3.5 and 3.8 yards a carry, respectively. Gordon was benched and Blue has been replaced with Lamar Miller. Not really... Hue's offenses typically utilize a fullback. He's one of the few coaches left that do.
That has got to be a first..no one goes to NFL.com for draft info..not even the ones who don't know any better.
Been trying to keep up with both sides of this conversation. There are good points on both sides of the fence, and some middle ground. Irish ever the optimist. Thanks for doing your part to lift our spirits and try to see the light at the end of the tunnel. *YAHOO* SAS ever the pessimist. Thanks for keeping us somewhat grounded. *THUMBSUP* I have been scratching my head over many of the players being released and those that are being signed. I understand that this is the start of a new era in Brownsville, yet I still am not sure I can get my thoughts wrapped around the direction that the new regime is headed. IMHO they?ve stomped on a few toes and have not made a very promising initial impression. *REF* I know it?s early and Rome wasn?t built in a day but? *WALL* Time will tell I suppose. While true Irish I think I?d put the list this way in order of importance? 1) Coaching. First there needs to be some stability at the HC position. I?m sure we can all agree that changing coaching staffs like you change underwear does not lead to winning consistently. It takes time for players to learn new schemes and playbooks. Next the team needs a HC who players want to play for. Getting players to ?buy in? to the game plans and schemes the HC wants to run will help get the most out of the players. One who knows how to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of the players and put the players he has in a position to maximize those strengths and minimize the weaknesses. This would go a long way toward being able to retain talent already drafted at a fair price. IMHO there will always be those that leave VIA FA for their big pay day. Hopefully though more often than not the team will be able to retain ?key? pieces to the puzzle. 2) Talent acquisition. drafting ability Not only recognizing young talent and drafting well, but being able to acquire players that fit the coaching schemes in place through free agency. 3) QB Arguably the final piece to the puzzle. We have all witnessed teams win the big one with a less than stellar QB. We also know that in order to keep going back with consistency you have to have that franchise guy.
