Precisely. That means that if you think they may have a problem filling the 90 man roster this year . . . just wait a year. {edit} The players who are only signed thru 2017 include; Paul Kruger Desmond Bryant Tramon Williams Robert Griffin III Demario Davis Justin Gilbert John Greco Joel Bitonio Tank Carder Andrew Hawkins Marlon Moore Christian Kirksey Pierre Desir E.J. Bibbs Darrius Jennings
Donte Whitner just said in an interview that "The Browns are playing MONEYBALL now." What exactly does that mean? I take from that statement that the Browns are no longer going to be over paying (Kruger, Bowe) players to lose. Same can be said for Gipson,Schwartz, Dansby, Whitner, Mack and Manziel. This team besides a handful of them are EXPENDABLE. Its a 3 win football team. By now the fans and the football world know that the Browns are not a good franchise or team. My only problem with this type of rebuild is it's coming 2 years to late. But better late than never. I fully figure that before this rebuild is over that Joe Thomas will be traded for another pick and Gordon won't be on this roster next year. I'm also figuring on the Browns winning 3/4 games again and positioning themselves next year to draft their new LT which will make Thomas a trade commodity. This type of rebuild will require draft picks.
That's a good point Lym Whoever survives from this list to the 53 man roster is on a one year tryout...they may not make it to their 2017 contract year. This management team is going to be no nonsense..That's how the analytical money ball works, evaluate, re-evaluate, then re-evaluate, rinse-repeat. If you aren't earning your paycheck, whether its a large or small one, you will be on another team. If your skills begin to diminish, you will be replaced. I think they will pay market value for a player that wants to be here and earn that money...ala Mitchell Schwartz, but either take it or go some where you might think the grass is greener, they aren't waiting around for you.
So . . . it's okay for this front office to tell us that they have a two (or more) year plan, but a player gets one year in their "process" to show his worth or he's gone? And seeing as you brought up Mitchell Schwartz . . . this is one of the big differences between you and I. You put an asshole on a pedestal for playing hardball with a guy who was only doing what a prudent businessman would do - find out the factual value of the worth of his skill set. I look at it like this; Mitchell Schwartz was the epitome of the type of player this front office allegedly wants in Cleveland. He came to work every day with the mindset to get better every day, every week, every year . . . and he did just that. He was an outstanding citizen in the community. And, from all lack of reports, never was a locker room problem. He found out that the Browns had, in fact, offered him fair market value and wanted to remain in and play in Cleveland. So when he tells them exactly what they should want to hear . . . ie: I want to play for the Cleveland Browns and your offer was fair - they kick his ass to the curb. As far as this part goes There is no question that Joe Haden hasn't earned his paycheck for almost three years. So how is he still a Brown? I'll tell you why. He carries a $20,100,000 dead money hit that correlates to a $6,700,000 negative cap charge. Why is Justin Gilbert still a Brown? $7,583,433 dead money - $4,083,387 negative cap charge. And THAT, my friend, is how their version of money ball really works.
It may have been medical, but also may be that he didn't fit the style of Defense Horton likes to play. I too don't understand why they let Schwartz get away. *SCRATCH* If I'm the HC I'm would not be happy that now I have to trust these yahoo's to find a replacement RT to protect my shiny new/retread QB as well as replace an all pro center. I'm not so sure I'm all that thrilled about the my way or the Highway approach the FO appears to be taking. I'm also not so sure how long the fan base can wait to see if their approach will actually translate into wins / championships. For now I'll take the wait and see approach as they haven't played any games yet. Lym, got and Idea, How about we just go fishing and check the sports page on Mondays? *DRINK*
Irish, u have been telling me for weeks that players will make more $ than their actual value correct? Well, if thats what u believe, how in the world will the Browns ever compete? Its seems like ur contradicting urself in ur last paragraph
Not sure what you are talking about here... If you are saying free agency, then yes, based on the consistent rise in salary cap that free agent market will continue to sit above the perceived player value..absolutely. How do they compete? By finding players that want to be in Cleveland and will play at another level for this coaching staff. THAT is how the better teams win. Do you really think that one year a player (Joe Haden is a perfect example) is one of the best in the league, then he gets paid and he is no longer that elite talent? The talent is still there, it's the drive that diminishes with the paycheck. Most of these guys are playing for the bid payday...How often does a guy get paid and the very next year, he struggles to look like a valid starter, let alone elite? Bu offering your best players a fair contract (ala Mitchell Schwartz) and having a straight line policy of take it or leave it, in the future, these players will be more apt to take it when it is offered. Schwartz was an example being made to the locker room. The statement was, we will pay you your worth, but if you show us you are just as happy playing somewhere else for a small payday more, then that tells us you are just looking for money and may not be the same player after getting it. It may take a few years for players to start buying in, but if they can get that mindset in this locker room, then we won't have to worry about the good leaders leaving via free agency for a payday. The kind of players that make up championships want to lead their locker room on the field, not by making headlines as the highest paid player at his position. IF his skillset demands that contract, moneyball should be able to identify that contract and pay him his worth. With stipulations that you don't get paid and check out. That is what sets franchises back who pay to play in free agency. Set the tone that we will offer fair contracts, but we want players that want to be HERE, not just collect that paycheck. Players that will continue to play at the highest level because they want to prove that their skills and their TEAM are the best in the league. The best players have always been paid, but the HOF tupe players and the ones that lead teams to multiple Super Bowls don't have to leave their team for a payday, they want to win championships. The environment over the last 19 years will take time to break down and start over. Mitchell Schwartz was one of the building blocks for future negotiations. We will definitely miss his skills that were home grown in Cleveland, but those skills can be replaced...with a hope that the replacement wants to be in Cleveland and will not play games in the future about money.
Irish, the difficulty with achieving what you posted is that players, at the moment, have very little incentive to come to, or stay in, Cleveland. Hue Jackson may be a great hire and one that will rally the fans but unless a player has worked with him directly there is no track record with Hue as a head coach that is going to make players jump at the chance simply because he is the HC. With teams like New England, the established pattern of winning and the presence of a HOF quarterback is enough to get players to take less money to play in Foxboro. If you look at any team that floats around the .500 mark perennially, they are almost always paying top dollar to retain or hire solid free agent talent. For teams that are consistently under .500, sometimes even money is not enough to get good players to come in. The Browns are set for a rebuild through the draft, probably following a pattern similar to the Cubs, but with first round contracts lasting 4 years (team option for the 5th) the window is going to open and shut rapidly. I would expect Cleveland to continue to clean house through next off-season and the only free agents that will be signed are the ones that are willing to take on team friendly contracts, probably due to either their market being cooler than expected or they have very limited options. And for the record, I have no problem with their approach other than the difficult nature of it. They will need to hit on more draft picks than they miss, which is historically difficult for new regimes.
Tim, I agree that players are looking elsewhere before Cleveland and the reason is simple....We haven't been able to identify and secure a franchise caliber QB in 30 years. Losing drains your soul...Nobody wants to lose...Guys will take less money if winning is a higher probability, and that doesn't happen in the NFL unless you've got a good quarterback....plain and simple truth. You are correct. Nobody is drooling over the thought of coming to Cleveland because of Hue Jackson, but he could be integral part in the development of a franchise QB, if our FO ever does find a guy....When that happens, it all changes. It's up the the Browns to find the man, and give guys a reason to want to come and play here...Nobody was clamoring to come to New England before Brady took over...
It isn't quite that cut and dry, but I think there are absolutely examples of how that could happen. Look at Dwayne Bowe...None of us know what led to his utter fail last season, but I don't think there was a single person here that felt he was playing to the top of his ability, otherwise, Pettine would have had no choice but to play him. Should we have kept him around for this coaching staff to be responsible for? Justin Gilbert was so bad his first year, there were many in here that WERE calling for his dismissal. 2 years later, he hasn't proven them wrong... That said, I believe in development and I believe Hue Jackson is on the same wavelength. Improvement and expectations will play a huge part in evaluations. IF a guy is evaluated to be a detriment to the team..then yes, replace him and move on. First of all, I haven't put ANYONE on a pedestal. But, your "asshole" (and I am assuming here you mean Depodesta) has been one of the top revolutionaries of MLB. He has proven himself in another sport, and while it may not convert to the NFL, I for one am going to show him the respect he deserves based on his career. If, you mean Sashi Brown, then maybe he is an asshole...or maybe he is the last wrung of this collaborative effort to clean up this franchise. I am and have always been a Browns apologist...I feel my role is here to even out all of the negative Nelly's of our Factory of Sadness. We all have our place, don't you think? I think I specifically have talked about Schwartz enough, no need to repeat it incessantly on my part. There is no doubt there are contracts that need to be handled differently...Maybe some contract language changes with this regime, maybe it doesn't...But, I don't disagree Haden hasn't played up to his contract the past couple of seasons. There will be instances that you simply can't afford to move on until the time is right...ala Justin Gilbert. Not sure this coaching staff would WANT to move on from Haden...He was one of the top corner during his rookie contract. They may look at the scheme the past two years and believe that value is still in Joe Haden...I have no idea..but paying him $6.7M to go somewhere else and play isn't really a smart move...is it? As for Gilbert, if his skill set is as bad as it seems, I don't doubt that they would cut him and eat that money if he is a detriment to the team atmosphere. They are cleaning house and building their version of the Browns. If you are in that locker room, either get on board, or get the hell out of the way.
I agree 100% I also believe it only takes one ego in that office to upset the milk cart and this thing go rolling off the rails. This regime is set up as a checks and balances team effort. I don't believe there is a single person, except Haslem, with the authority to diminish any of the other's opinion when asked for it. I think this is set up so that they are wiping clean as much of the day to day environment that has been built up over the past 19 years. Stopper or Els, I can't remember who said it first..but they were right, they are cleaning all of the lasting remnants of losing from the walls. The new regime will attempt to set a plan in motion, if everyone buys into that plan, they won't consider it the same old Browns, but the first year building block of the future. You and TD are right, a QB that a team can consistently rally around sure does make the job easier to accomplish and maintain. It is nearly impossible in this league to build something without at least a competent QB leading the team that can stay healthy for 16 games a year. Consistency wins in this league...Keeping the same players builds that consistency. That consistency leads to others wanting that environment to play in as well, so it is sustainable. Getting to that part is the hardest part of building a franchise. In this day and age, the fans DEMAND everything now..If they don't get what they want they demand change. Sometimes change is necessary, sometimes it is merely a building block you must grow. All I can hope for at this point is that the management team is in place to grow into the future. We won't find out in 2016, I am ok with that as long as this city gives them a proper opportunity to get to the end of the plan. I agree, it will take a huge effort to identify the proper players in the draft to make this work. What I do know is, historically, there are very few examples of teams built from free agency. This league is totally different than MLB in the fact that you can't buy a roster. It must be built...so in that respect, the money ball theory SHOULD actually work better in the NFL. So if it was so effective in MLB, I'm not sure why there are so many detractors here...
I think it has to do with the inability of struggling teams to resign the talent that they groom. Even when a true A grade player is drafted, they look to hit the market a lot of times to simply get out of their situation and get paid. If the Browns are making it known that they will only pay what they consider fair market value it might actually help other franchises in negotiations with Cleveland players that are making a decision of whether or not to stay. They could get slightly more money for going to a team that is winning more games.
All true...and I say again....All that goes away once this team finds a "real" QB....I'm talking about a "face of the franchise" guy....They won't struggle to resign the talent that they have groomed if they are winning....It's not a complicated equation. ...but as long as they keep swinging and missing on the QB's, don't expect much to change.....The tires will keep spinning.
This ^^^...Winning solves problems... Now, if they are still winning 3 games a year in 4-5 years when this new roster of players are hitting free agency, then this experiment will be an epic failure and it won't matter, because they will be starting over again with a new regime. One made up of a more typical GM structure. I am banking on the new approach becoming a winning environment, because quite frankly, it is in place, so I am going to support it until it proves wrong. If the winning becomes reality, as TD said, then those issues take care of themselves.
There is going to come a time where the winning needs to take on more than just a number for Cleveland to do this quick switch. There is going to have to be a buzz around it. The media and fans throughout the NFL are going to need to jump on the Lake Erie bandwagon and create a frenzy that gets potential free agents, both homegrown and abroad, jacked up to play for the Browns. Without that extra element I think the process may not have enough time to boil. Being 8-8 may be a realistic target but it will not generate enough hype without some feeling of momentum working with it. Getting to 9-7 would be a huge step but is it possible within 4-5 seasons to rebuild a roster, coaching staff and front office and make that kind of a stride?
Strange timing Given the timing of Donte Whitner?s release by the Browns Saturday, one should give thought to the notion the Browns? new front office has no idea what it is doing. It was nearly a month ago that the new guys allowed four core players to slip away in free agency in one day with three or four more following mere days apart. Okay, questionable judgment at best. Just when it appeared as though the migration away from Berea had stopped, bam, there goes Whitner. This is not meant as a major quarrel to that move, but what took them so long to make it? After all, Whitner is a local guy who was thrilled to return to his hometown and was a positive influence. Even though he was with the Browns for only two seasons, he did not deserve this treatment. Never bad-mouthed the organization. Through his quotes, he almost always looked at the bright side despite playing on a defense that did not deserve such an approach. So why did it take Sashi Brown and Paul DePodesta this long to cut the cord? Why did it take nearly a month to discover that, hey, we don?t really need this guy on the roster? Did they sit around all this time debating his value? Whitner wondered the same thing. ?I just wish they had the common courtesy and would?ve done it weeks ago when free agency was going on,? he said in a series of tweets Saturday. ?. . . #25thHour . . . But I?ll bounce back.? Then this little dagger. ?My plan is in a different place. They?re playing MONEYBALL now!? A distinct reference to DePodesta, whose rise to baseball fame as an executive is tethered to the book and movie of the same name. The timing of this transaction is odd. The explanation is odder. ?It is important for us to thank Donte for all his contributions to the Cleveland Browns over the last two years,? said Brown, the club?s chief spokesman in all matters football related. ?His passion for this city and dedication to his craft is contagious. These are difficult decisions to make, but we felt it was the best decision for the Browns at this time. We wish him the best as he continues his career.? Spoken like a true attorney. Mere words. No reasoning behind the thoughts, at least those that prompted the move and he chose not to share. Was Whitner a bad strong safety? No. He was good enough to earn Pro Bowl honors in his first season with the Browns. One of the best tacklers on the team? Yep. Too old at 30? Not really. He still has at least a couple of good years left. Maybe it was the fact Whitner had trouble in pass coverage. Can?t argue that. But then again, the entire secondary had trouble in pass coverage last season. Why? No pass rush. So let us beat this dead horse one more time. Why now? That?s a question that unfortunately will never be answered. So now the Browns have cut both of their starting safeties, arguably their two best special teamers, two of their best offensive linemen and their two starting inside linebackers. Looks as though it is the Browns? intention to become the youngest team in the National Football League. New coach Hue Jackson argues the Browns are not rebuilding. They are building, he claims. Anyway you shake it out, it is nothing more than a matter of semantics. Building, rebuilding, what difference does it make? The Browns we see next season will, for a the most part, look nothing like the 3-13 team fans were forced to witness last season. The culture is definitely changing. So is that a bad thing? We?ll find out. With this front office, there are definitely no certainties. Right now, it is impossible to figure out what the end game is with these guys. We should know a lot more following the college draft later this month. One thing is certain: The 2016 Browns will be one of the youngest ? and probably one of the least experienced ? teams in the NFL. And that usually portends more doom and gloom. As if fans of the team didn?t already know how that feels. Posted by Rich Passan
There was atime it was like that .of course that was before the rat bastard Modell uprooted us .its been nothing but one screw up after another since 95 .I have the the old Browns at least .I have fond memories . we have lost a generation of fans because of all this and some of the die hard original are getting apathetic . they need to hit on this " concept " sooner rather than later IMHO .
Yes, it is very possible and with a QB it becomes probable... I won't be sold on RGIII or a rookie QB until they hit the field in Hue Jackson's latest rendition of Cleveland Browns offense. BUT, if either elements embrace Jackson's acumen for all things offense, this team could easily turn into a 9 win team sooner than later...not in 2016...but sooner than later.
Most on here keep talking about anywhere from 3 to 5 years for the "plan" to take root. Here's the rub as I see it; If, in fact, winning starts in the trenches (and I'm just talking offense, for now), we just lost 40% of the starting O-line from last season. Of the projected starters that are left, two - Bitonio and Greco - have contracts expire after 2017 and the other 3 - Thomas, Erving & Bailey (Pasztor's is up this year) - are done after 2018. So, in two short years 100% of the O-line (as we know it today) will be gone. There simply are not enough draft picks in the rounds where starters can be found to replace the entire O-Line in only two years.
This sums up my main concern with the ability to utilize these kind of tactics to rebuild the roster, build continuity and win ball games in such a shortened time frame. If they can get Bitonio, Greco, Erving and Thomas to all buy into sticking around it changes complexions completely. But if the struggles that will come over the next 2 seasons make the outlook still shady then the possibility of this kind of turnover becomes the reality.
