Els, the bit about the Browns just settling for whatever coach will come here is just not true....When Cleveland hired Butch Davis it was a major get. He was red hot at Miami, and that was as big a name as any team could have snagged, and we just went in and bought him....Romeo Crennell was another big name hire coming off multiple SB wins as DC in New England. He was at the top of most short lists.....Eric Mangini (another Bellichick boy) was also a pretty good hire. Certainly not the bottom of the barrel. We've had some terrible calls too...Chris Palmer and Pat Shurmur come to mind,but it's not the coaching hires that have been the real issue here. It's the lack of a real QB, and everybody knows it...Look at this year's playoff teams. Look at who is left alive...Russel Wilson, Aaron Rodgers, Andrew Luck and Tom Brady. Not too shabby. By the way, Cleveland could have drafted three of those guys, but they passed. They passed multiple times on Wilson and Brady.... It's not the coaching hires. It's the unbelievably horrific job this team does at drafting, and in particular their inability too identify and develope a good QB...Notice I said "good" not great...They can't even find us a mediocre QB. It's sad..
Dawg I agree totally with what you are saying here. Since it's return this has been one of the worse drafting teams in NFL history. Last year I felt that continued and it showed on the field or I should say showed up on the bench. No matter who the GM is they get it wrong. How can these NFL front office people be so wrong. Their job is to find TALENT! All year long they can study and watch college players. I look at the last 2 years draft. We have 4 1st rd picks! Right now Farmer should at least be 1 for 2. I under stand JM sitting the pine this year. I wanted him to. But drafting Gilbert instead of a WR, Watkins/Evans, is a major F-up in my book. When I sit here and think we could of added Watkins/Evans, Carr and Bitonio I get sick! Dawg look at last years pre draft threads by me. I wanted Robinson if gone I wanted Watkins and Carr. I would of out drafted Farmer last year. Top 2 rds. 3 picks and 2 starters and a backup QB who can play. Instead we have a guy who looks like a bust(Gilbert), a drunk QB (bad backup) and 1 starter. yes we got an extra 1st rd pick this year but does Farmer really know what to do with it? Off his history here he doesn't. We need QB, RT/RG,TE, WR, DE, DT, ILB and OLB on this team. If Farmer blows this 1st rd and drafts to more bench players he should be fired! Then I want the job. Teams don't get 2 1st rd picks 2 years in a row. We should at least add 2 quality starters out of 4 in 2 years of drafting twice in the second round. They blow this nice stretch of 1st rd picks then this is a sorry ass organization who should move to L.A.
I've never felt the way I do now in regards to the Browns. It almost feels hopeless....We really seemed to have turned the corner a bit this season, but the way it all fell apart was both typical and embarrassing. Talk about "the wheels falling off", nobody does it like the Cleveland Browns. If it was ANY other franchise I'd be pointing and laughing, but this is not funny.. Down the stretch we had coaches that just wanted to leave, QB's that couldn't play, a primadonna WR (with all pro potential) that can't stop embarrassing the franchise with his selfishness and immaturity, and two current 1st rd draft picks that actually decided at the end that PRACTICE wasn't even important enough to bother showing up to... So here we are, still in the basement of the AFCN, and sitting once again with two first round draft picks at our disposal...The question is; How the hell do we trust Ray Farmer again? I mean, other than Bitonio, his draft looks like a huge fail. He actually did better with the UDFA's than he did with the draft itself...Not sure I've ever seen that. His UDFA pick ups contributed more than his draft picks. lol! That's unbelievable considering how many high picks he had to work with, but no denying that Crowell, Gabriel and the CB from Pitt all outperformed the vast majority of our drafted guys.....I don't know about Farmer. Maybe we should just let him handle the UDFA's. He does seem to have a knack there..
I feel all the frustrations of both you guys... And I hate being the forever apologist of the Cleveland Browns...but... As for Farmer's evaluation on last year's draft, I personally have to give him a pass FOR NOW... A) It's only been one year. None of us know how these guys are going to pan out. Maturity is a fickle bitch, you never know when it is going to change. Both of the 1st round picks Gilbert and Manziel and the 3rd round pick West are failing due to maturity. The other 3 picks, Bitonio is a stud who will be a perennial Pro Bowler if not All Pro, then you start getting into the point of the draft where you are looking for strong backups and the occasional gem. 3rd round pick Kirksey was every bit the productive backup you look for and has the potential to be a whole lot more than that. 4th round pick Pierre Desir started off slow, but closing out the season, he looked like what we expected from Gilbert. He very well could turn into one of those mid round gems you always hope for...Let's not forget, West had maturity issues, but he was extremely productive when he wasn't in the coach's dog house... If Gilbert matures and becomes what they envisioned, this could easily turn out to be one of the greatest drafts in Browns history. B) Farmer was working under strenuous circumstances. He began the off season under Joe Banner, then took over HIS staff. In doing so, Farmer pretty much did everything himself and went off of reports rather than taking trips to the Senior Bowl, Combine, etc...If he gets any production from Gilbert and Manziel moving forward, it will be a miracle the draft turned out as good as it did. Now, one issue I take with the man...He has stated quite frankly, he feels he can find productive players in the later rounds for skill positions. So, I don't expect him to fix the WR position or TE position in this or any other draft. I feel you get the best players available, no matter the position. I envision a first round April made up of an offensive lineman (or two), and/or a defensive lineman. Only other player(s) possible are QB, S and LB, imho. I think there are a half dozen high level prospects at WR in this year's draft and we are going to pass on them just as we did in 2014. That really burns my arse.. BUT, these other positions are positions of need, so it is hard to argue at this point of the building process..
So he passes on TALENT and we continue to suck? Then he needs fired! Talent! Why can't this team see that? But hey we fire fire coaches and front office people on a yearly basis anyway! Could not having talent have anything to do with that? Garbage! The Browns are like the Indians then Bro! They want to make money not win! Because of no matter how sorry they are they make money and thats GARBAGE! If thats the case then F$%# them! I got the NFL ticket and can watch other games!
******* Sarcasm Warning On******* Apparently the patience gene disappeared sometime during the Gerald Ford administration. *SCRATCH* ******* Sarcasm Warning Off******* Irish is 100% spot on with his last post. Farmer assumed the duties of GM with very little advanced notice prior to the draft. He then went out and got; o A CB - We all had CB on our needs list. Give the kid some time before you lynch him. o A QB - Most of you were frothing at the mouth for JM. And if you believe the reports, JM wasn't Farmer's call. Well, now you're stuck with Johnny. o A OG - Don't hear anyone complaining about Bitonio. o A RB - Irish was about the only I know who even knew about Terrance West. He also picked up a Free Agent RB and then signed a third RB as an UDFA just in case Tate flamed out. Dumb move, eh? Did he hit on every one of his moves? Nope. No GM does . . . anywhere. Maybe I'm the only one on here that thinks he will make us all proud to be a Browns fan after this upcoming off-season. Give him some time to get all his ducks in a row and then tar and feather him if he chits the bed.
Um... Lym, FYI as I know your CRS gets worse as you settle into retirement, but I too was high on T West. http://live4sportnetwork.com/forumlist/viewtopic.php?pid=173260#p173260 I just hope that the Kid gets his poop in a group and puts forth the work ethic it takes to be an NFL player. Stay out of the coaches dog house. The thing that really has me worried is not how Farmer drafted last year, nor whom he picked. Some I liked some not so much. I am more concerned about WHY Shannahan QUIT! That right there tells me that the culture in the building hasn't changed enough to build a championship caliber team. Now I'm not going to believe everything that has been written or published as I don't know what actually is/was going on inside of Browns HQ. But, until Everyone in the Browns orginization gets on the same page and buys into what the "Team" is trying to build, then unfortunately we fans will be left going through the same shtuff year in and year out.
Yep . . . you were indeed. But Irish was more vocal (big surprise!). It very well could be you answered your own question. IF Shanny couldn't get on the same page as the rest of the staff, or couldn't put the TEAM first, then that, in itself, could have been his undoing. The fact that is has been reported that they "mutually agreed to part ways" tells me that there was some disagreement going on.
Look fellas all I'm saying is this is still a 4 win football team in my eyes next year. I'll also admit that Farmer made up for his blown 1st rd picks with Kersley and Crowell! In my eyes they played like top picks, why because they came in started and didn't look over whelmed while doing it. Gilbert did, 2 can Manziel did. Lym I'll agree with you about Manziel. I was 1 of those people that were foaming at the mouth when we drafted him. I didn't think he would be there in the mid 20's of the draft. I also didn't want him with the 4th pick. I have known for a couple years that Schwartz is not a RT in my eyes but he doesn't miss games. Maybe because he rarely blocks anyone,LOL! As a line 1st guy I wanted Robinson last year then move Schwartz to RG. I even mentioned Jake Mathews a couple times. Pedigree! But after Robinson it was Watkins and Evans. TALENT! Then I thought we need a future QB. As I said before I didn't think Manziel would be there at 26 so I thought Carr would be. At this point in the games Lym I would of rather had Gilbert and Carr! You were right on this arse hole. When a 4 win football team has 2 picks in the 1st rd 1 of them has to start, TALENT! J. Mathews, Watkins,Evans and Carr would start here. We could of added 2 starters on a 4 win football team. Instead we add no starters and LETS SEE IF THEY GET IT! That statement right there is why we suck. This 1st rd Farmer needs to hit on both picks! OT, WR, DE or OLB needs to be these picks. We have 2 picks in the top 20 for Gosh sakes! He is an NFL GM! If he can't draft 2 starters, he needs fired because he can't do his job. Haslam, I dont care what anyone says made that Manziel pick so you are right we are stuck with him. But he also has a 1st time head coach and a 1st time GM he can dictate. last draft that was a problem. For Gilbert and Johnny Football......... This is the NFL which stands for NOT FOR LONG if you don't get your heads out of your arses! Farmer still has a lot to prove before he gets brought up in the same sentence as Ravens GM Ozzie Newsome in my eyes!
Agreed Lym, but I am not sure where or exactly what that disconnect was. Was it between Pettine and Shannahan or was that disconnect from higher up the ladder. Some of the Rumors floating around are that there was pressure from above Pettine to play JF, when Pettine and Shannahan knew he was not ready and was barely putting in the minimum effort required. Now I understand that it is the coaches responsibility to get these guys ready to play and teach them what they need to know, but I also believe that it is the players responsibility to study and put in the work required to master the skills needed to play at the NFL level. IMHO I think that the agreement between the players union and NFL is prohibitive to teams taking the extra time and effort to prepare these young players for game day and to be successful at the NFL level. I'm referring to the kind of things that limit practices, minicamps, prohibit coaches and players form communicating during portions of the off season, etc...
I am not sure where or exactly what the disconnect was either, Crex. But from where I'm sitting, it really doesn't matter. If, in fact, Pettine and Shanahan couldn't agree on the direction the Browns should be taking, then I have to assume that they weren't on the same page regarding Manziel. I am willing to concede that perhaps Haslam was pushing some buttons regarding JM's playing time. However, Shanahan didn't report to Haslam, he reported to Pettine. Pettine's still here - Shanahan isn't. Add in the draft day shenanigans by ex-QB Coach Loggains (obviously a Manziel supporter) and Pettine continuing to start Brian Hoyer until such time that (perhaps) Haslam insisted he find out what Manziel had to offer, and I can easily conclude that Shanahan was the only one left after Loggains was fired that was still pushing for JM. Obviously, this is entirely conjecture on my part but that's how I connect the dots and I've been wrong before. Couldn't agree with you more on this part.
I think this is the basic difference in how you and I think about the draft, Els. You want sod (instant gratification) and I want seed. The Browns have every opportunity THIS OFF SEASON to acquire starter grade talent via Free Agency and fix the holes we all know exist. Then follow up in the draft and acquire talented depth (something that has been woefully absent). I firmly believe that the consistently good teams draft players for one to two years down the road to replace the starters they already have. These draftees can sit and learn and hone their skills so that when they are called upon to start - they're ready. If you happen to draft a player that can start and play at the NFL level in year one . . . then that's just gravy. That said, if Farmer blows it in Free Agency and brings in a bunch of has beens or never weres, then I'll be the first one in line with a bucket of hot tar and you can have to easy job of throwing the feathers.
HEY, I resemble that remark!! ;D I've got a big mouth, what can I say? I agree with you Els on needing to win in the first round in 2015...However, I don't think Farmer or anyone, could have guessed how bad Gilbert's work ethic would be. I thought that was one of the "safest" picks he could make last year. I too was wrong... If Farmer chooses the right tackle, then it will be a successful first round. I don't think there is any doubt he will be going OT or DT in the first round, or both...There are plenty to choose from on the offensive side, but only a couple of DTs that will be available and worth a first round selection. I think Farmer plays it safe and does exactly what you propose, gets a starter with each of the first two picks. No boom or bust prospects, just guys that can play the system and contribute. You said it Crex!! At some point you have to hold the kid responsible for not putting in the required effort. Farmer can't get on the field for them. The reason is pretty clear for Gilbert, he hasn't put forth the effort needed to succeed. Manziel...well at this point I have run out of excuses. He needs to turn his personal life around in a hurry if he has any intentions on succeeding in the NFL. The don't give you many chances to succeed, you either do it, or you become a statistic.
I got hot news fellow Buckeyes. My dad is a 41 year union machinist. A guy by the name of Jerry Beck was my dad's supervisor for 20 years. Jerry is from YOUNGSTOWN! Jerry Beck had a son, that sons name is Tim Beck the new offensive coordinator at OSU. For the last couple years Tim has been the OC at NEBRASKA! Tim Becks cousin, Tom, works with my dad at the shop. He told him that right now Cardale Jones is with Ted Ginn Sr and is about to make his decision to come out into the draft or stay at OSU. As a Buckeye fan I don't want him to leave OSU. I don't think he is ready right now but he did blow up #13 Wisconsin, beat #1 Alabama and simply out played the #1 QB and Heisman winner Jake Mariota in the NC. Jones and Ginn will be making the decision here sometime today. Stay tuned.
I personally think it is a great move for the kid.. I don't think he would be the starter in 2015 at tOSU.. He will learn more as a backup in the NFL, than he would as a backup in Columbus. He also will become a higher draft pick through "the process" than he would staying at tOSU and being a backup next season. He has everyone's attention and intrigue right now. I don't usually condone kids leaving school early, I actually loathe it. But his situation is different than most as he has JT Barrett to contend with, and JT is a better prospect to run Urban Meyer's offense. It doesn't show on how Jones is a better pro prospect than Barrett, just that Barrett is a better option for that system. In the long run, Jones is the only one of the 3 that is built for the NFL (See Johnny Manziel *WALL* ) I would love to build the 2015 team through free agency, add two lineman in the first round and use the 2nd rounder on Cardale. He will NOT be ready to play in 2015, or possibly even 2016, so if you are looking for instant gratification, he isn't it..But in the long run, he is built perfectly for a pro offense. To me it is worth the flyer....
See . . . this is where I get confused concerning posts on 01/14/15 regarding who or what position we want in the 1st round of the draft. At THIS POINT IN TIME we don't know which Free Agents will be signed. And because of that, we don't know what positions are still required to fill out the roster. Example: "If Farmer chooses the right tackle, then it will be a successful first round". What if a veteran right tackle is signed in Free Agency? We've all been sniffing around Brian Bulaga as a potential Free Agent Target. If Farmer actually goes out and signs Bulaga (or someone similar), would drafting another RT still make this a successful draft?
Uhm, I totally disagree with the notion that Cardale Jones is a back-up at Ohio St. if he stays....How does anybody know that? He just took over a really good team and made them an unbeatable team. They took it up a notch in that offense when Cardale took over. Can anybody deny that?...Urban Meyer should be in his ear right now telling him that HE is the guy...Let the chips fall where they may from there. Ideally, I like Cardale as the starter, J.T. as the back-up and Braxton as the secret weapon (think Percy Harvin) flanker.....I doubt that happens though. I fear Braxton will transfer out and Cardale will declare for the draft....Hope I'm wrong, but that's what I'm afraid of....If Urban can keep two of the three on board, that would be nice...If he can somehow manage to keep all three, well that would be unreal....
Sorry Lym, bad wording...I didn't mean a "Right Tackle", I meant the correct tackle..Personally I want Danny Sheldon from Washington. I feel Sheldon could come in right away and be the answer at NT...Just as effective as Terrance Knighton or Terrance Cody who are imho the best free agent prospects at that position. They will garner $4-5M per year and be over paid. I am not convinced either would be an upgrade to Rubin, who struggled.
Quite frankly because JT already beat him out once...and succeeded just as much as Cardale. There is no reason he won't return to the starter role when healthy in 2015. The turn in domination for the Buckeyes was the gelling of the offensive line, not the replacement of Cardale Jones. Believe me, I could see Jones winning the job, don't get me wrong, but Barrett has already beat him out once and I could actually see that outcome as the more likely.
