some were questioning Gordons effort last Sunday ?. did he go all out on some of his routes ? for a guy that has missed games the last seasons due to his own screw ups he needs to show he can get it done and be a team player .
I second that one, Bluez. Playoffs would be great and I'm still hoping we compete to the end, but it has been a nice change so far. Don't want to settle for 0.500 but wouldn't be too disappointed, comparing it to the last few years, if that how it pans out. *DRINK*
Cleveland Browns should stick with Brian Hoyer By Pat McManamon | ESPN.com BEREA, Ohio -- In trying to determine which direction the Cleveland Browns should go with their quarterback, two numbers come to mind. The first is 69, the second is 7. The first number is the combined number of defeats the Browns had the previous six seasons (11.5 per season). The seven? The number of wins the Browns have at this moment, one fewer than San Diego, Dallas, Cincinnati and Indianapolis. Put yourself in August, after all these losing seasons. Then have someone whisper that the Browns would be 7-5 heading into December and playing four meaningful games with a playoff spot at stake. Then be told that the quarterback had started all 12 games and won seven of them. Folks would have been lined up to Chillicothe to sign up. Then ponder benching a guy when the team is two games above .500. Go. Figure. Mike Pettine started a whole lot of chatter when he went to Johnny Manziel in the loss in Buffalo. The move made sense. The offense had 8 total yards the third quarter, and Brian Hoyer had thrown two interceptions. One might not have been his fault, but he still threw them. Try Manziel. See what happens. No problem. But do not make a permanent switch. The Browns still have a chance to reach the playoffs, and teams that are in this position deserve to see it through. One could say Manziel can help the team win. But logic dictates he'd already have been playing if that were the case. Want to develop Manziel, assess him, see what the team has in him? Do it once the playoffs are out of the picture. Try going to Joe Thomas, who has played all these snaps in a row, and tell him the last four games are about assessing a draft pick. Ask Karlos Dansby, who is working like mad to come back from a knee injury, how he feels about that. Or Donte Whitner. Or Jordan Cameron, who is fighting back from a concussion. The most depressed players in the NFL are those who know their team has given up on a season to develop someone or something for the next season. They don't go through the pain, the struggles and the hours for next year -- because they don't know if they will even be around next year. Careers are too tenuous, joints and bodies too fragile. There are valid arguments to make when criticizing Hoyer or boosting Manziel. You can argue that Hoyer's recent play has been poor and that he's thrown too many interceptions. But he's also the guy who threw 189 consecutive passes without a pick. The schedule has been easy? So be it. No team in the league petitions to change the games because of the other team's record. There are arguments that Manziel could bring an element to the offense that Hoyer does not have. He can run and he can scramble. But can he drop back, read a defense and make a throw when the other team is out to tear off his facemask? Nobody knows. Boost him, praise him, call for him. But realize that nobody eats their own the way Cleveland sports fans and teams do. Hoyer's story should be one of the NFL's best. A hometown guy who spent three years as Tom Brady's backup and who has made a comeback following ACL surgery. He was an NFL vagabond until he finally found a place at home. He has led the greatest road comeback in NFL history. He beat the Steelers and Bengals and has won seven games. While heartwarming stories do not win games, Hoyer has been playing every week knowing that some don't want him to be the starter. He's held it off, until recently, when the numbers have been lacking. But flip the switch and put Manziel in the spot where Hoyer's name is and Manziel would be the subject of every sad-music, tear-jerking Hallmark feature known to humankind. The bottom line is this: The Browns are 7-5. Hoyer got them there. He can play better. If the Browns have proven anything the past 15 years, it's how difficult it is to bring a rookie into the starting lineup. They almost always struggle. Manziel might be the exception -- and it would be lovely if he were -- but odds are he'll have a hard time. Since he's been coach, Pettine has had success instilling competition with a player who is not playing well. Now he's putting the heat on Hoyer, who had a long leash when the season began. Pettine can go ahead and shorten the leash. He can use both guys if he feels it will help the team win (unless you buy a coach giving away strategy by saying he won't use both). Four games remain, with Cincinnati and Baltimore being two of the AFC North teams left on the schedule. While the playoffs are a long shot, crazy things happen. The Browns need to play the starter until it's played out. They should evaluate Manziel only when the playoffs are out of the picture. Tell Hoyer it's time to respond. But make it clear he has the opportunity.
Was going to post the opposing article on ESPN about why to start Manziel, but you need to have The Insider in order to read it.
Bluez, I get it. 8 and 8 is a drastic improvement over the past 6 seasons, but I am not ready to surrender the "win now" mindset. Once the season is over and I can look back, I will surely appreciate the best Browns season in a long time. See the team as having the talent to be a contender, not one looking to fill 10 holes in the draft and free agency. All positive stuff, and I appreciate it, even now. But I want the ride to continue. I want the final game with Baltimore to mean someone is in and someone is out. A tall order, but do we expect all these teams at 7 and 5 will run the table. I doubt it. Some may, but until we drop another game we are playoff contenders. I like that, and I want that for another 3 weeks. That makes Indy this week a must win. Big time stakes, to find out if we are a Big time team. Maybe not, but I am enjoying the illusion.
The Morning Kickoff ? The Decision: If the Browns were 5-7 or worse, as is usually the case in the last 16 years, the decision on their starting quarterback for the final four games would be an easy one. You would start the rookie first-round pick, Johnny Manziel, and give him the much-needed game experience to judge whether he is the future franchise quarterback. After all, Brian Hoyer?s contract is running out and you?ve seen enough in 12 starts to gauge whether to make him an offer or let him leave in free agency. If they were 5-7, no doubt the Browns would let Hoyer walk. They probably will, anyway. But at 7-5, and embroiled in their first playoff chase since the 2007 season, the circumstances are different and the stakes are higher. The locker room and the fan base are starving for playoff football. This decision has to be about this season. Next year can wait. On Monday, coach Mike Pettine reduced it to this week only ? Sunday?s game against the Indianapolis Colts. He insisted that the decision he and his staff and GM Ray Farmer arrive at will be about which quarterback gives the Browns the best chance to beat the Colts. I think if the Browns make the switch from Hoyer to Manziel, it would be a move for the duration of the season. But if they stay with Hoyer, it doesn?t mean they can?t go to Manziel in Game 14, 15 or 16. Obviously, it?s the most important decision of Pettine?s first season as Browns coach. Let?s look at the pros and cons. The case for Hoyer * He is the only one of 20 Browns starting quarterbacks since 1999 with a winning record. The Browns are 10-5 with Hoyer starting, 9-5 if you subtract the game in which he got knocked out in the first quarter with a 10-0 deficit. Either way, ?That?s not bad,? Hoyer said in an understatement on Monday. * He has led the team from the start, has instilled in it the confidence and the will to win. He has earned everyone?s respect for his work ethic, dedication, professionalism and selflessness. He deserves the opportunity to complete the job. * He is resilient and mentally tough ? characteristics you want in the quarterback position during a playoff chase. * His back is pressed against the wall, and he has produced in that situation before. The case against Hoyer * His play has steadily regressed the past three games against non-powers Houston, Atlanta and Buffalo. He is throwing ?dumb? interceptions and taking ill-advised sacks ? decisions that go against the grain of a cerebral quarterback. * In his last three games, he has completed barely 50 percent of his passes (61 of 120) and has one touchdown v. six interceptions for a rating of 55.69. * In his last seven games, he has squandered a league-high 17 defensive turnovers and produced from them only three touchdowns and 36 total points. * It appears the weight of a stressful season is crashing down on him. The recovery from ACL surgery. Starting for his hometown team. Staving off Manziel in training camp. The prospect of his first big payday with a new contract. The loss of Pro Bowl offensive teammates Alex Mack, Josh Gordon and Jordan Cameron. Trying to assimilate Gordon into the mix after a 10-game suspension. All of that, plus the daily grind of taking over a team for the first time in his career has taken a toll. The case for Manziel * He has bided his time, said the right things, supposedly done the right things in meetings and in practice. * He brings a palpable energy to the team and the home crowd. His mobility is an element that Hoyer doesn?t have, and must be accounted for by defenses. Making plays with his legs should open up running lanes for the backs. * He thrives in the limelight. In college, he rose to the occasion on the biggest stage. * The team simply has to see him perform to make some critical offseason decisions. The case against Manziel * He doesn?t know what he doesn?t know. NFL defenses, when they gameplan him, will confuse him with sophisticated coverages and pass rush schemes, force him into running, and then squash him like a bug on a windshield. * He has not earned the starting job through hard work on the practice field and in film study. His off-the-field escapades should not be rewarded with a starting promotion. * He is not mature enough to carry the weight of a playoff chase on his shoulders. What to do: Many people in the Browns? headquarters building believe that Pettine has put off passing the torch to Manziel long enough. Some of them believe that Manziel would have posted a similar number of wins as Hoyer, so the Browns might as well get on with the future and turn the team over to him. Pettine has been Hoyer?s No. 1 supporter. His faith and trust in Hoyer originated when Pettine was Buffalo?s defensive coordinator preparing for the Browns game in 2013 Week 5 ? Hoyer?s third start. But Pettine has to put aside any personal sentiments now. His locker room senses an opportunity frittering away, and some players believe Manziel, at this point, can do better. Pettine is obviously perturbed by the fact his defense is playing better than at any time all season ? better than a 7-5 team. The failure to maximize defensive turnovers coupled with Hoyer?s recent spate of offensive turnovers have eroded Pettine?s support of Hoyer. I believe Pettine will make the change to Manziel. If that happens, I couldn?t argue against it. But if Pettine pulls a surprise and stays with Hoyer, I would admire his conviction and faith in a player who has worked harder than anyone in the Browns? locker room. And if Pettine stayed with Hoyer, I think his players would respond. It?s strange, but I have the sense that this monumental decision, whichever way it goes, will galvanize the team, not splinter it. The way the defense is playing, I don?t think this Browns season is finished quite yet.
Its no illusion, Ken. But we can still lose to the Colts and have a shot at the AFCN title. If the Colts game is indeed a loss, then the next three are must win games. We no longer control our own destiny (and haven't for about two weeks now) but, with some realistic help, we can still win the AFCN or, have a shot at a Wild Card berth.
The OL was awful in blocking for the run. I am not saying that we need to put West out to pasture by any means, nor am I down on the kid. I simply said that I was interested in what Winston could do. Running back is not like QB by any stretch. With the exception of a few truly special backs, the RB position is probably the easiest position to "plug and play". I am still VERY excited about what WestCrow bring to the table, but there is no harm in looking at another back. Also, consider that with RB, the lifespan in the NFL is ridiculously short. Even by NFL standards. I think we would be remiss if we did not kick the tires in a game situation.
I've spent the better part of the past two days mulling over the ramifications of a QB switch to Manziel. One: There is no way in hell that Hoyer returns next year either as the starter or as the backup. Two: What if "Johnny Football" isn't all he is cracked up to be? Unfortunately, that won't be known until around week 6 or 7 next year. By then, the NFL will have 10 games of film on him. That seems to be the number of games it takes for the league to figure out a phenom and then lay waste to him. So now what do you do? o You no longer have a QB on your roster that has won over 60% of the games he started in (56% if you discount last year's Buffalo game). o If Manziel flames out (or gets injured - a very real possibility), your season now rests on the shoulders of Conner Shaw or some other veteran retread or, worse yet, a mid round draft pick. I'm all for success. But I want sustained success - not the BS success we had in 2007. Patriot-esque success. IMO, Pettine should continue on with Hoyer this year. Coach him up, encourage him, do whatever it takes to get the old Hoyer back for these final 4 games. If he continues to suck, then do what he did at Buffalo and yank his ass.
Best sentiment I've seen posted. Thanks Lyman. That is exactly what this team needs. Hopefully this is the first year in a long tenure for the new staff (coaches and front office) to give us exactly that. Not sure how this QB dilemma plays out, but I would like to see Manziel get the start yet still think Hoyer has earned enough respect (and enough wins/success) to be given another shot to show that this is only a slump or that he makes a very good backup. Unfortunately, the Browns don't have the luxury of time with Hoyer's contract running out. I just pray they don't shoot themselves in the foot by jumping the gun and tossing away Hoyer, finding out that (god forbid) Manziel can't cut it, and they now have to blow multiple draft picks to move up and draft another unknown commodity at QB. I guess I'm leaning towards the pessimistic view of all this based on our less than mediocre history of the last 15 years. All I can do is pray this all works out for the best while in the short term I shake my head and silently think to myself "Good Lord!!!! Here we go again!" I need for this perpetual cycle of crap football to end.
I don't see what the big deal is in regards to the starting Cleveland QB. Niether of these guys are established "franchise" QB's. If one struggles and goes 3 and out like 7 times in a row, and obviously isn't moving the offense, then it's time to see what the other guy can do. How hard is that? F their fragile little ego's....If those guys are THAT fragile, then this team doesn't have a QB anyway.... I don't want to hear about how Brian Hoyer has gotten us to 7-5 ....Some games he has flat out "stunk on ice", and he has absolutely deserved criticism and or benching. I'm not sure if ANY team has EVER had circumstances like they have in Cleveland. Hoyer is not signed beyond this season and we have this hot shot rookie first rounder that everybody is curious about...So people are going to be critical of the Browns no matter what they do...Pettine needs to just block out all the noise, and truly do what he keeps saying he's going to do. Play the guy that he thinks gives the Browns the best chance to win. They aren't out of it, but it sure feels like they are on the ropes.... To me, it should be Johnny....Hoyer has done okay, but that's about it. I think he is a really good back-up QB in this league, and he's capable of beating anybody. But he's not a franchise guy and we need to see what we got. Earlier in the season he had one major thing going for him in that he wasn't turning the ball over. The last few games have been a different story for Brian though, and the Browns just can't leave a guy in there that is barely completing 50% of his passes and has now started getting really careless with the football....They just can't. let the people in the media talk all they want about our recent past and our QB "carousel"....None of that really matters. It's all new in Cleveland, and nobody up in Berea has anything to do with all that crappy history. It's just noise, and the entire organization needs to block it out, focus on the opportunity in front of them, and make good decisions....
It seems opinions on the Browns QB situation is like arse holes and everybody has one. But it does seem like it's 50/50 nation wide about whether to start Hoyer or Manziel. I find myself agreeing with a lot that was stated before my comments here. So I may as well start at the top. No one knew what the Browns had coming into this year. NOT EVEN US!! We did know that Hoyer played some games and we won with him. We knew coming into this year our offense had no running back, no Gordon, no future QB & a weak right side of our line. So enters Hawkins, Austin, Bitonio, Tate, West, Manziel & Crowell. All positions addressed. Future QB, RB, WR and O-line. I believe someone put up Hoyers stats above there. That shows he is an inconsistent QB. We all watched the games. Earlier in the year our running game surprised I think everyone. The running game as we all know opens up the passing so Hoyer wasn't asked to throw the ball to much. Fewer throwing attempts fewer picks. Then the Jags game. They put 8 men in the box to stop the run. Our passing attack couldn't beat them with 8 men in the box! We have all seen Hoyers stats the last 4 games. When he misses a wide receiver he misses by 3-5 feet. We have seen the last 4 weeks why it took Hoyer until he was 29 years old and with a 4 win team to become a starting QB. He is a 6/7 year vet. not a 21 year old rookie here fellas. He knows the defenses, he knows the speed of the game and schemes. Brian Hoyer had his chance to fulfill his childhood dream and become the QB of his Cleveland Browns and take us to the promise land and you know what he did?...... Threw an interception! I have read on here and on other websites that the Browns are winning right now despite Brian Hoyer. Looking at his stats you can't argue that fact. Just like last Sunday. The defense gave up 3, freaking 3 points the 1st half. They did their job. The offense didn't do theirs. Hoyer looked terrible. This game to me was a must win game for the Browns. Houston and Buffalo have us now in the wildcard. Hoyer is what he will always be. He's not Gannon or Trent Green. He is a journeyman QB that caught lighting in a bottle at the right time of his life. Yes he gave us a 10-5 record but I think thats a little misleading. Again I watch the games too. We go to Buffalo in a must win situation and was getting beat down! Petitte said that they have been pondering the Manziel move the last couple of games. I really think they felt they had nothing to lose in this situation. Either you wait and see if Hoyer keeps wining or heeerreesss Johnny! Low and behold Hoyer shot himself in the foot. With Hoyer being a free agent you have to see what JM has before you make the decision to sign Hoyer and for how much. Enters Johnny! With the game out of hand and Hoyer doing nothing it was time for Manziel! Pettite said himself they needed a spark. Hoyers play has been bad for about 3/4 weeks now. Look at the interceptions! Manziel came in drove 80 yards for a TD (SPARK LIT) and looked good doing it. His athletic ability, accuracy and most of all ARM STRENGTH were all as advertised! Considering it was his much anticipated debut he didn't look over whelmed! Matter of fact to me he looked faster than the game. The offenses tempo was much quicker with him in there. People who dont like JM dont like him because he is cocky. Not because of his play. We just saw his 1st NFL real action! Result......TOUCHDOWN!!!!!! 80 yard drive! He has MOXY!!!! He is going to tell you he will beat you then do it! I like that. I will really like that if he continues to grow and drives the football down the field. I guess what I'm saying is..... ITS JOHNNY FOOTBALL TIME! Hoyer as my dad says just petered out! He is not going to get any better. He is what he is. A good backup QB! For that reason I hope he stays. After all I'm a Cleveland Kid too! But this Cleveland Kid calls them like he see's them and NOW IS THE TIME FOR JOHNNY MANZIEL!
It's Johnny time, I guess. And thats OK with me, but I gotta say it: I expect Hoyer to end up in the game. While you recount the positives in Johnny's game Sunday, I would argue he did look like he was overly fast, as in panicky at times. I think that is what he will give us, some good plays that Hoyer couldn't make and some WTF plays that we will be lucky to survive. That is the nature of a rookie QB, so it' s no knock on Johnny, just the odds on expectation for a guy starting his first game (s). My disagreement on this really stems from the standpoint of "finding out what we have in Johnny". Shouldn't be a part of the equation, not with a playoff berth on the line. Either way he goes, the leash should be short, so whoever is the QB and the team as a whole understands we are out to "Win Today". Do your job or sit down.
Four days ago, running back Ray Rice became eligible to sign with any team. Since then, he hasn?t gotten a sniff. On Tuesday, five running backs had tryouts with NFL teams. None were Ray Rice. Per a league source, the Browns worked out Shaun Draughn, the Colts kicked tires on Mikel Leshoure, the Giants worked out Dion Lewis and Chris Ogbonnaya (they signed Ogbonnaya), and Washington gave a tryout to Terrance Cobb. No specific team has been linked to Rice, despite reports that a handful of teams are interested.
If I am Pettine I am starting Hoyer against the Colts . the message has been sent . if he falters doesent move the offense then you pull the trigger and you don't look back . IMHO Hoyer deserves one more start . if Hoyer does start I am sure the leash will be very short . I am good with that .
I see what you are both saying here. But I also know you both realize that if we lose this game and Cinncy wins we ARE pretty much out of it. That tie they have will come back to haunt us. I don't expect us to beat Indy. I wont be disappointed if we do but now INDY,CINNCY and BALTIMORE are must win games. MUST WIN! I think we could beat the Panthers. Indy will win that division. So now we must win the Cinncy, Balt. and Carolina game. I just dont have the confidence in Hoyer to do that! 3/4 games we have to win. Hoyer has proved to me, through his play, he cant handle it. That shows through his interceptions. If we do only win 8 games this year we will be 8-8. Man I will be chitting in high cotton. But at least now we can see the high problem area's. What positions need the most help and where to add some depth. GO BROWNS!!!!!!!!!!!
I think that goes right back to Lyman's Patriot-esque success comment. The Pats always have had depth due to good mid round draft picks and good UDFA signings. Most of all though, a HOF QB who has been healthy the majority of the time. So, yes we need to find Manziel's ceiling (at some point soon) but we need to keep drafting well and continue to pick up low priced UDFA's who contribute. Those mid round picks that pan out and the UDFA's free up a lot of money to spread around and lock plenty of a teams better players into long term contracts. Kind of like what the Indians did back in the 90's. But unlike baseball, it's just less likely in football that all your guys pan out. And most of all, the front office has to hit on a higher percentage of draft picks with guys who are plug-and-play.
I've been away for the last day and have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts on my phone... Now, my two cents...(or possibly 99 cents) Brian Hoyer: I think we all agree the colors of Brian Hoyer are being seen weekly. The kid is a very bright, can read a defense, carry out an offensive scheme, everything you want out of a QB...now the part that you DON'T want in an every day starting QB, his arm is below average. What I feel is the difference in Brian Hoyer as a starter is the fact all he can do is run the system. Every other piece needs to be working to be successful. Even in the wins, Hoyer has underperformed in the majority of games. Take wins aside and only look at the actual performance of Hoyer and you would guess the Browns were more like 3-12 than 10-5 over his tenure. Lucky for him, there have been approximately 15 INTs dropped by the opposition and there were many games where the rest of the team, be it the running game and/or the defense were playing above their limits. The opposing defense has caught on to Hoyer's arm...It seems that they have a guy always playing the receiver, and another hovering in the area, knowing Hoyer can't throw the ball 10 yards out of bounds. When he misses, they have a guy 5 yards from the receiver knowing there is a good chance the ball will still be catchable for a pick and that has been the case (6 INTs in 3 games, 8 in last 5 games). It is a chance a defense takes to move a DB in the area instead of attacking attended receiver. In the past they attacked the receiver and the ball was nowhere near a DB to be picked, now...well we have seen the results. Manziel: WE DON'T KNOW.... What we do know is we are in the hunt for a playoff despite losing 2 of our last 3. Despite hoyer being one of the worst QBs in the NFL over the last 6 games. Despite having the other 3 teams in the AFC North 2 games above .500. We are in the playoff hunt and every other team we are competing with have just as a hard a road as we do... What do we know? Hoyer... He is what he is, and watching his game, we imho go 2-2 at best over the last 4 games. 9-7 will NOT get us in the playoffs. We will absolutely need to be 10-6 for consideration and with the tiebreakers, I think we need to win out. We are at the absolute bottom for tiebreakers right now and looking at all other teams, it will be hard to win a tie breaker against almost all other teams. So, when I take the entire outlook into consideration, the only outcome I see as "Going For It" is to start Johnny Manziel and pray he is what I PERSONALLY have thought he is all along. If he isn't we lose, but right now, I think we do anyway with Hoyer as the starter. The defenses know what he is and have adjusted, we need a QB they are not capable of adjusting to, because that QB will adjust continually to throw them off...Hoyer is incapable of being that player. It's Manziel time, now or never. If he brings what I hope he can, I think we can run the table and get in the playoffs, if not...let's face the music, he IS the 2015 starting QB of this team. We need to get a head start on giving him experience now. Brian Hoyer will NOT be the starting QB in 2015, so the experiment is over. I love the man, but not the player for my every day starter, it is that painfully simple. If winning NOW is what this team preaches then Johnny Manziel gives us the best chance to do that and must be the guy! If preparing for next year is what we are resigned to? Well that means Manziel as well.... I just can't logically see a reason to stick with Hoyer.
