Benji I another conundrum player. If he can't do punt returns, how do we use his speed effectively. I know he's made some big catches for us, but when Gordon comes back, there is "no contest" on which guy is the better option. He isn't a great route runner, and both Hawkins and Austin are more reliable and disciplined. A highly explosive weapon, but in who's hands does he go off in? Ours or our opponent's? What do we do with him? We have no punt return game at all, and he is proving to be a liability there, so what do we do on both the Benji and the punt returner / catcher situation? Not getting big returns hurts, but turning over the ball on punts Kills. Some posters have suggested Gilbert or Gabriel. I would be very reluctant to put Gilbert back there. I believe he is a highly valuable asset on D, and don't want to lose his contributions three for the hope of a big return of two. Gabrriel on the other hand, I could get behind. I like this kid, but honestly, he's a carbon copy (duplicat for those who aren't as old as I am) of Hawkins, and once Gordon comes back, a luxury not a necessity at WR, not unlike
Only problem Ken is that Cameron is in his contract year, he becomes a free agent at year end..The Browns have to make a decision rather quickly on him. His injuries are certainly starting to worry me...
OK TD, I found our "debate"...it was back on "2014 JYD Mock Draft" thread... The only thing I ever said about Mack was on his film I saw flaws that needed to be coached up and YES, I said he is no where near ready for the next level yet...but here is the final synopsis of that "debate".. So, WHAT I SAID was...I did not want Mack at #4, there were others I was higher on at that pick...However, if we were picking between the lower end of the top ten to 15 range "I would be ecstatic to get ANY of them honestly" That ANY included, Mack, Clowney, Ebron, Dennard AND YES, Justin Gilbert, whom the Browns drafted.... Sounds to me like I was pretty well set on what I felt...Barr was a better LB to begin as a rookie...and he is, SO FAR...and I felt Mack was better suited to be drafted between the lower end of the top ten to 15 range...which is yet to be determined. I could end up wrong in that assessment, but so far I am right in my assessment of 1st year players in Watkins (who is around 11-12 at his position in the NFL) and Matthews (starting and contributing to his team), Barr (who is top 10 at his position in the NFL), whom I said was another possible player.. and then we go to Mike Evans who is a big contributor to the Buccs, but his QB play has been terrible and Bridgewater who is going through rookie issues... and I have been wrong on Manziel (more so because Hoyer is playing well enough to let the rookie learn) and Robinson who can't even break into the starting lineup.. Now to the ones who I said had high potential, but not immediate impact players... Clowney, hasn't seen the field much Dennard, Has been a situational player, but has contributed Gilbert, we have all seen his early struggles and subsequent growth first hand AND... Mack...this is debatable, he had a nice game against the Browns, which we all saw. But he is still ranked #44 at his position, which is good, but by all means not "IMPACT" material. So, however you want to put it TD...I stand by my comments to date... At the very least it has given us something to talk about this week, lol!! *DRINK*
I would rather talk about another statement in this thread, if you don't mind... *YES* :[ I think I have already proven who "won" this "debate"... *SHADES*
lol! How did you do that? I found one in the second unofficial collaborative mock that was funny, but I didn't know how to get it over to this thread. It was basically you coming at me with angry little emoticons after I selected Mack at #4. lol! I really don't know what Barr has to do with anything....You found the discussion I was talking about and I think that validates what I said.... You said "no where near ready" and "2 to 3 year project"....that's exactly what I was calling out. And again, I only did it because our QB called him one of the best players they have gone against all year, and mentioned that our entire locker room echoed that. lol!...It just struck me as funny.
Good morning Irish. Didn't look at the contract element. My bad. I guess it works itself out: if he's going to be part time, he goes / if he proves capable of overcoming injuries and contributing we have a decision to make. I'm on the fence, but could be convinced either way. It's just that concussions seem to haunt some players, and I will admit I question his toughness at times. Probably not fair, but here you have it.
if i understand this right, you're wondering how to quote a post from another thread here. if so: go ahead and click the quote button in the other thread for the post u want to quote. now, highlight the whole thing it added to the reply box and copy it. don't submit it - come to this thread, click the reply button, and then paste what u copied into the reply. then continue your reply as u normally would.
I agree Ken, Concussions have me scared..Once you have an issue (and I consider 3 an issue), you may be better off moving on. 2015 Draft has talent at the position and we have draft picks...we should be able to replace him in the 3rd-5th rounds with someone like Devin Funchess who is a clone of Cameron.
lol! yeah that's the one....In my defense, I was on record claiming that there were 3 blue chippers (Clowney, Watkins and Mack) that I would not pass on....So when Mack was still there at #4, I had to pull the trigger..
Jordan Cameron (concussion) did not practice Wednesday. Cameron remains in the league's concussion protocol, and is extremely doubtful to play Week 9 against the Bucs. The Browns then play on Thursday night in Week 10, leaving Cameron's status for the next two games in jeopardy. His 2012 and 2013 seasons were both ended by concussions, and coach Mike Pettine expressed some concern Wednesday. We'd consider Cameron week-to-week. Jim Dray and Gary Barnidge will fill in at tight end.
Irish, I try to give credit where its due...Barr is a stud. No doubt, you had him pegged higher for good reason. That play he made last week against Tampa was big time! ....But you turned this into the debate about Barr vs. Mack. I wasn't talking about that at all...I was talking about remarks like "Mack is NOWHERE near ready for the next level", and you know it...You then did a masterful job of turning it into something else...lol!
Just calling a spade a spade...that is what the whole conversation was about in the thread last spring. There were a few (wasn't just you) calling for Mack to be the #4 overall pick. My whole argument was, not only isn't Mack a #4 ranking, he isn't even the best OLB out of the class, that would be Anthony Barr, then the debate ensued and I watched tape on both and because of the tape, I reached my conclusions. When I am called out, I defend my statements to the best of my ability and either I am right (in this case) or I admit I am wrong... This was a defensible statement: What was ACTUALLY said was Anthony Barr is a better OLB and I feel he will make an immediate impact...and... Mack was nowhere near ready (which is the only arguable remark of the entire debate from last spring) and a 2-3 year project to reach his potential... So, I guess the question is, do you stand on Mack's merits as now to being the top of his potential? Which is ZERO sacks? What exactly do you constitute being an impact LB in this league? Because right now, the Browns have THREE LBers that are outperforming Mack overall, not just sacks. They are Paul Kruger (ranked 7 overall), Karlos Dansby (ranked 11 overall) and Jabaal Sheard (ranked 27 overall)...IF we had drafted Mack, he very well may not have seen any more playing time than our own Justin Gilbert...Food for thought... For the record, Mack isn't even 2nd in line to Barr from last Spring's class... 1st Anthony Barr (ranked 1 overall) 2nd C.J. Mosely (ranked 3 overall) 3rd Avery Williamson (ranked 20 overall) 4th Khalil Mack (ranked 44 overall) (edit They only go up to 45 in the rankings, but we have a playmaker of our own from that class in Christian Kirksey, who probably isn't far behind Mack in these rankings...
What do they have to do with his accuracy? Little. As long as they are in the right place at the right time, and they make the catch, they have performed their responsibilities. They may have something to do with his confidence, I don't know I'm not in the guys head. I'm not excusing the guy, and I absolutely believe that we can get a better QB. In no shape or form do I believe that QB to be currently on our roster, though. I do not wish to revisit my opinion on Manzeil. If, and when he becomes the starter I will support him fervently, as I have supported every starter we have until it is clear he needs to go. My point was mostly that we are not doing enough to develop what we have in Cleveland. Honestly, I am frustrated with the revolving door that we have at pretty much every position from groundskeeper to President. I know that we all want a Lombardi. That is about as big an understatement as I can make. Let's be real though..... we have not won a championship in like..... a bajillion years.... what's the hurry? How about we pump the brakes a little bit, and actually see if we can develop anything beyond stumbling upon Joe Thomas. If you all truly think that Manzeil is the guy, then lets develop him. Lets give him a real honest to God shot. That is time to learn the playbook, which coincidentally means we need to keep a coach and his staff around for longer than one season. Build with a vision that is founded on his skill set, which coincidentally means we need to keep a front office around long enough to see their picks through to fruition along with the coach and his staff so that the scheme does not constantly change. Why are we still so bad after 15 years back in the league? Why is it that no top tier coaching candidate will come to Cleveland? Why is it that we have had 21 starting QBs? I don't know off the top of my head how many HC, OC, DC, STC, GM, Pres, or associated personnel have rolled through our facility, and I honestly do not want to know. Ever. Seriously. I know, and I have said before that Hoyer is not the long term answer. I do think that he is a very adequate placeholder that could win us some games. If he had Dilfer's defense, heck he might even be able to not lose us a Superbowl. The fact is is that he is our starter, and instead of assuming he is a bum, and ditching him or degrading him because of what he does wrong, let's look at cheering him, and looking at fixing what he does wrong. That goes along with consistent and experienced coaching and players, and keeping him on the field. The dude has 10 starts. Ten. That's it, and he's already on his second coaching staff and an almost completely different cast of supporting players. It just seems sometimes that we're trying to build a house, but we build the roof before we frame the house, and fire the dry wall crew for not hanging the drywall despite the fact that we have no studs. Oh..... and we forgot to poor the foundations...... I'm done rambling. It's getting hard to care
D Dog, of course you are absolutely right about the ever changing front office, coaching staff, QB, etc..... and it's impact on the teams we have suffered through. That said I will defend Slam's decision to do it all again this year. #1 the Front office of Banner and Lombardi was not his choice. They were largely thrust upon him. Chud was left hanging when he went with Hoyer, who once hurt was left twisting in the wind, with no front office support or action to help. He then lost the team who could clearly see the FO wasn't interested in winning in the present. and we win but one game the rest of the way. #2 One thing the FO did well in their dismissal of the 2013 season was to accumulate picks, and set up this draft as a possible game changer. Coupled with that the team's talent level was already on the rise, and if you are Slam, and think you don't have the guys you want in place, why would you let them draft? #3 While we were wringing our hands over how long they took in choosing a new HC, they did talk with a lot of people, and that too I believe was something Slam needed to do. I gotta believe he learned from each interview, and from being involved in the process. While Pettine cannot be deemed a successful, top tier coach, he did have the cojones to hire people who may be smarter than he is. Surrounding yourself with people who are as good or better than you without feeling threatened is a big positive IMO. #4 Finally. I believe Slam is a smart man, and certainly has noted the record that constant change portends, and is committed to constancy now that he has hired "his" guys. I woiuld expect to see all the major players back, with the possible loss of Shanahan to a HC spot. Now there may be some movement in the lesser ranks, but I believe he understands the value of consistency, and while you can point to last year and "yea right", I don't think that was a reflection of philosophy, but a quick, decisive correction of a rookie mistake. His. I think he was acknowledging he was wrong in letting himself be talked into the front office he had, and wasn't going to let that go on any longer. Now he may be wrong in some of his choices, and have to make corrections again, but I believe he did not do that out of frustration, but after accepting his own mistake, and acted to correct it immediately, something I think he champions as a philosophy: if you see a problem act on it now together. Maybe my orange googles are showing, but that's how I read it. I don't know if Pettine is the right guy, or if Hoyer is the right guy, but I like the philosophy of "do it now", win now. I believe he is creating a team. I believe he has done the work to the facility as a message to his team, that "we" (including the front office, the fans, the players, the coaches) are a team. Amen
lol! You keep ignoring everything I have said from the beginning, and then turning this entire thing into something else. All these comparisons are classic deflection tactics....If you choose to give no credence at all to the spoken opinions of the Cleveland Browns starting QB, then that's up to you....Because that's all I'm going on. lol! Seriously! I don't care about Mack or the crappy Raiders, or how he stacks up against your statistical analysis, or whatever player ya want to throw out there. I'm not following this guy's career with a magnifying glass....I know what I saw last Sunday though. A pretty good rookie LB for Oakland... Certainly not a guy I would categorize as a long term project that's years away from making an impact in this league...but hey, maybe that's just me.... Again...just to reiterate....not comparing KM to anybody....just taking a quote from Hoyer and having some fun. well....trying to. *WALL*
