when did i say franchise worthy Irish? In fact Im pretty sure I said that I love that the Browns are taking the "wait and see" approach... btw; YOU are the only person that I know of that is taking issues with Brian Hoyer's accuracy....He's getting high marks across the board everywhere else...
I guess you guys all missed my point about that first deep pass to Cameron last Sunday....I mentioned that it clearly wasn't perfect....the beauty of it (to me at least) was that we didn't have to watch another Browns QB miss a wide open WR...We made a huge play! It got us rolling! you guys crack me up... I give Hoyer credit for making sure...yes, he put too much air under it to score a TD....But it was still a phuqing 42 yard gain! Geezus....i can't believe the critics that act like we've had Dan Marino around here for the last decade...
I believed that you would disagree with that based on your previous post that Manziel isn't going any where...That is a forgone conclusion but if your stance on it is what you just posted (italicized above) I agree. *DRINK* Do I believe Hoyer is a franchise QB? No. That's what complicates the situation. Can a team win without a franchise QB? Yes, Trent Dilfer is the proof in that equation, but a team should always look to acquire one. That's why even though I disagreed with the drafting of Manziel and felt there were better options on the table I still don't knock this regime for at least trying to upgrade the position. I'm just of the mindset that because you have a potential staring QB on the roster that you used a late first round pick on, a player that could not beat out a journeyman QB coming off of a severe injury in camp, a player with a history off the field like John's you should not pass on another chance to try and improve on the position again (with urgency) if the opportunity presents itself. There is a real possibility that opportunity will exist this draft and (like you and I agree on if John is not living up to expectations) the Browns should go after a potential franchise QB regardless of if the deal gets done with Hoyer or not.
Compliment me all you want, I appreciate it. You're the fella that wants to bench a QB that's leading a team winning games because he won't sign what you deem a fair market deal, you believe it would be in the teams best interest to move on to John and see what you've got. Never mind the repercussions I posted earlier. *ROFL* Honestly, do you believe the BS you type or is your only reason for being here to act like an ass?
Irish,Hoyer isn't perfecr, neither is Brady, Manning, Marino, etc..... I think that is where the disconnect lies. Watch any full game by any QB and he inevitably misses a few and gets the benefit of some good WR play to hlep his cause. What Lym posted speaks too that point. You come at it looking for flaws, so naturally you find them. On the flip side, you have stated the need for a top 5 QB, and, well there can only be 5 of those, so it translates into you believe Manziel can be one, or that we would continue to draft QBs until we get that one. That is a stretch. If Manziel is "that guy" then how is it the coaches don't see it. Now I will grant two possibilities: #1 Johnny isn't a practice QB, or #2 the coaches are seeing it, but until and unless Hoyer falls off, they won't interrupt the cohesion, success, and teamwork Hoyer has engendered. In case 1, Johnny is working uphill big time, cause his "live opportinities" are going to be limited. In case 2 it will take a Hoyer injury or at least 2 poor games (losses) to make a move. Hoyer cannot learn to have a skill set he doesn't have, but Manziel can learn the leadership, discipline, and football intelligence Hoyer possess'. That is Johnny's opportunity, and if he takes full advantage of that, his skill set could become the difference maker Johnny supporters believe in so much. Either way, the Browns know they have a Big decision ahead, and IMO are wisely maintaining a wait and see position, which may indicate that, like you they are unconvinced in Hoyer's long term viability too. Doesn't matter just yet, but as the year rolls on, that question takes on greater urgency.. I expect they believe that what they see from both QBs, will clarify the path forward, but if not............... By the way, "the system is the inpetus" argument is nonsense. Not that it dosen't factor in, but seriously, without Hoyer setting everyone up correctly and executing the fakes, look offs, etc...... those plays wouldn't be as effective. And he "has" gotten better each game, so he'll never have Marino's cannon, don't care. The man plays within himself, and it sure looks like he makes those around him better, and he wins. The truth IMO, is they absolutely had to start him at the season's opeining, mainly for those reasons. He got the system in place and the players in position becasue 'he" knew the system. Now it's becoming a different story. Now Johnny could come in and mostly just do his job, because the other guys now know what they have to do. We have seen a lot of attrition in the ranks due to injury, and that remains a possibility, so be ready Johnny. Learn from the back up, and when your number is called do your best Hoyer impersonation adding in your own unoque skills and Browns fans will embrace you too.
Of course he is...The perennial doormat Browns are 3-2 and Hoyer is leading the charge.. I have enjoyed every single second of every single win. I am not dumping on the Browns and/or Hoyer...I just don't get why I am getting dumped on for my observations. To Lyman about me putting Manziel into every post...it's simply not true. I am ecstatic when this team wins, and I give my observations about Hoyer and the defense as to how I think they could improve. The fact that I have to respond to 5 different posters off a single post is why it seems like I am constantly posting about this subject. I get berated and I damn well will defend what I posted. That is all...Hell I would have fully expected everyone to move on by now, yet we have had more posts in the past two days arguing with me, than on game day when they were posting the beat down. You guys tell me what is more important to this message board. I am the eternal optimist on these boards and as soon as I have a negative opinion on a single subject the boards blow up at me...
I really don't think Johnny has anything to worry about except for his weekly preparation. You gotta be strong at the back-up QB in this league, and I think the Browns are. I have no doubt that when they do call on #2, he will make big plays happen in typical Johnny football fashion...Ken really nailed it on his last post. This team is learning how to win. They are young and strong but they needed the guidance of a pro like Hoyer....Most everybody, including myself expected Johnny to take over at the bye week. Yet, there's Hoyer, making big plays and moving the offense effectively. It's an ideal situation for the Browns...No need to throw the rookie in. Does anybody really think that Johnny could have started this season and thrown just 1 interception through 5 games? I don't think so...That doesn't seem realistic for ANY rookie QB.
I'm not on the attack Irish....It's just interesting conversation to me. You and I go WAY back with our disagreements bro, but there has always been mutual respect. Your observations are greatly appreciated by me, i can tell ya that. Sorry if I was too fired up last night...could have been the Gray Goose...
I am not expecting any QB to be perfect, however, a well above competent one is accurate on the majority of his passes. In most cases with a better QB, his incompletion ratio is affected more so by drops than consistently misfiring the rock. Now, I will/have said quite consistently, some of Hoyer's incompletions come from him throwing the ball away as he goes through a fast progression. He doesn't hold on to the ball...less sacks (great), but also less chances at first downs due to defensive breakdown (not so great). I do watch each game for a third game specifically looking for what can be improved. I do it nearly every week. So, I do find flaws. Like you said, everyone has flaws, that is to be expected. But if you all take the time to re-watch every game 2 or 3 times, you would also see what I see and that is a QB that has a specific way of doing things and while I whole heartily think he is probably the best QB to be a backup in the NFL simply because he isn't going to lose you games. At the same time, because of his habits, when those end of game moments come when all this team needs is a first down, he MUST throw those habits out the window and find a way to get that first down. In two situations this year, he failed to do it. The only time he really shines is when they go into hurry up and his quick reads really work to perfection when in that mode. He simply is not a slow tempo, control the clock QB, he fails almost as consistently as he is a genius in the up tempo. Problem is, we can't go up tempo for 30 minutes a game, injuries and turnovers will take over if they do that on a weekly basis. I don't know the coaches don't see him progressing towards that end. Just this week Pettine slipped in one of his pressers and spoke quite frankly, and I quote ?For Johnny, I think it?s the best thing for his career,? he told King. ?He can see how a pro prepares and executes an NFL game plan. Nobody?s given up on Johnny. He has made great strides. This is a win-win, because now he can learn the game and not be forced into it before he?s ready." "Nothing?s changed for us with him (Manziel). We?re hopeful he?s going to be our quarterback one day. We just don?t know the day." He also stated in the same presser, that the Browns are not opposed to negotiating with Hoyer, ?I?m sure we?ll revisit the situation during the year and hope to get something done,? he said. ?It?s not like we?re not open to negotiations.? Both of these statements will be seen from different points of view, one side sees it as the coaches don't see it in Manziel, the other side sees it that they are using this opportunity of a soft schedule and an extremely adaquate Hoyer to make sure Manziel is completely prepared before he takes the field (barring injury). As for contracts, one side will see it that they will find a way to get a contract done, while another side will see it that they aren't in any hurry to do anything and that it shows they don't see him as a future franchise guy. My hope is that with each passing week, Hoyer develops a better acumen with the field and receivers and that accuracy DOES improve, it just hasn't happened yet. As for Manziel, he's already shown the leadership at A&M and the Browns players have already made comments publicly in the preseason about his huddle presence and how his high demands. I don't doubt that aspect of it. My biggest worry with Manziel is his ability to comprehend the entire playbook to the point that he knows every single position. That is one of Hoyer's great assets, his innate ability to learn the playbook from every positions point of view. I agree 100% with you that the wait and see approach is the best way to take this. If Manziel doesn't learn that playbook by year's end, well, most likely he will never be able to adapt each year to a new one either and at that point Hoyer would be a great asset to keep. I agree almost entirely with this point, however, the system makes this running game hum. That running game is what has given Hoyer WIDE FREAKING OPEN receivers to throw to down field. So they definitely feed off of each other. Hoyer certainly has helped this young receiving corp MUCH MORE than I believe Manziel could have if they would have started him from day 1. I also think Hoyer was the greatest teacher for Manziel this season and worth the money to keep him around if he comes off the start me or nothing ideal (if in fact that is the case). Manziel is under contract for another 4 years after this one, so paying Hoyer $10M per year for say 3 years, or even 2 years, to either start one more year or mentor and backup Manziel if he becomes ready would be invaluable to this team. I just sense Hoyer isn't even looking to consider that situation.
Wait a darn minute! I've been blasting him on his crap accuracy for a while now! I demand not to be over-looked. :-/ There have been 41 QBs start more than two games this season and throw more than 40 passes. Hoyer ranks 31st out of 41 (bottom 25% of all QBs).[/*] There have been 26 QBs start five or more games this season (comparable with Hoyer). Hoyer ranks 24th out of 26th in accuracy. He's only ahead of Nick Foles and Geno Smith. That's bottom 8% of all comparable NFL QBs.[/*] And for the first time in years, the Browns are tops in the NFL with the fewest dropped passes. So Hoyer's getting more help from his receivers than any NFL quarterback, but completing fewer of them than almost any other NFL quarterback. Methinks that say "accuracy problems". And for those people who dismiss stats quickly because they're devastating to their case, please give it the "eye-test" as Irish says and notice the number of under-thrown footballs or balls thrown behind receivers. It's staggering.
The Morning Kickoff ? First rounds, revisited: Remember these words from Jimmy Haslam at his introductory press conference as new Browns owner on Aug. 3, 2012? ?? and to be honest, your first round draft pick has to not just make the team, not just start, he?s has to be All-Pro. That?s reality, so the key is those draft pick decisions ?? A quick look at the most recent Browns? first-round draft picks: 2014 * Cornerback Justin Gilbert: Struggling as a backup at the defense?s most challenging position. * Quarterback Johnny Manziel: Soaking up whatever he can as the backup to Brian Hoyer. 2013 * Linebacker Barkevious Mingo: Eleventh on the defense with 12 tackles in four games played, he has morphed into a ?coverage? linebacker rather than a ?rush? linebacker. 2012 * Running back Trent Richardson: Traded to Indianapolis last year. * Quarterback Brandon Weeden: Backing up Tony Romo in Dallas after being released in March. 2011 * Defensive tackle Phil Taylor: Seventeenth on the defense with seven tackles in four games played, he will miss several more weeks after having surgery on a knee. 2010 * Cornerback Joe Haden: Off to a slow start, fourth with 25 tackles and tied with two others for second with three passes defensed. 2009 * Center Alex Mack: Was playing outstanding in the new zone blocking scheme, but he?ll be out for the season after surgery scheduled on Thursday. Haden is coming off his first Pro Bowl season and Mack his second. But as the Browns seem poised for an extended run at changing their losing culture, it is amazing that the impact from their last eight first-round draft choices has been minimal, if not non-existent. So far, that is. Bortles v. Manziel revisited: Sunday in Jacksonville marks the Browns? first look at Blake Bortles, one of the quarterbacks they passed over in the 2014 draft. Technically, the Browns didn?t pass over Bortles, who was a two-year starter at Central Florida. Bortles was taken third overall by Jacksonville, a notch ahead of the Browns? position at No. 4 in the first round. But coach Mike Pettine confirmed on Wednesday that Bortles would not have been the Browns? selection at No. 4 if he were available. ?There wasn?t any quarterback in the discussion for us at four, but we certainly had a first-round grade on him,? Pettine said. The Browns traded down from No. 4 with Buffalo and eventually took Gilbert at No. 8. Pettine confirmed again Wednesday that had the Browns stayed at No. 4, they would have taken the highest player on their board, receiver Sammy Watkins. Bortles has taken over for Jacksonville after relieving veteran Chad Henne in a 44-17 loss to the Colts in Game 3. In 3 ? games, including the last three starts, Bortles is completing 67.8 percent of his passes with four touchdowns and seven interceptions. He is his team?s second-leading rusher with 106 yards on 16 keepers. Pettine said that the Browns were surprised when Jacksonville took Bortles No. 3. He thought the Jaguars might trade down and select him later in the round. ?He was a kid who was high on our board,? Pettine said. ?He possesses an NFL skill set. We didn?t know a lot about him from a personal standpoint until we went down there and worked him out. (We) had a great visit with him ? got to spend a little time, got to get to know him. Then the workout was outstanding. He was a guy who based on that visit, his stock with us rose. ?The success that he?s having does not come as any surprise. He can make all the throws. People call him ?Baby Ben? because of the resemblance to (Steelers QB Ben) Roethlisberger. You can see some of that. He has the ability to extend a play. He?s scrambled for some key first downs. That?s certainly something that we?ll have to be on point with.? I contended at the time, and still do, that the Jaguars erred in not making Manziel their pick at quarterback. I felt that Jaguars coach Gus Bradley ? formerly the defensive coordinator with Seattle ? would appreciate the problems Manziel?s unique skill set would pose to opposing defenses. ?I think that?s an accurate statement, that it wasn?t that we didn?t like him,? Bradley said on Wednesday. ?I really enjoyed my visit with Johnny. I really enjoyed getting to know him and watching him on tape ? so many things that are hard on a defense ? extending the play and just his creativity, all those things. ?I just think where we were at we just really liked Blake Bortles. It came back to Blake. We really liked what he was all about. He was our first choice, but it wasn?t that we did not like Johnny.? Welcome to the NFL: I thought rookie running back Terrance West did a nice job admitting that his demotion behind No. 2 back Isaiah Crowell was what really caused his bad practice week and his further demotion to inactive status against Pittsburgh. ?I?m a team guy, but at the same time I?m a ball hog,? West said. ?If I could tell the coach to give me the ball every play, I would. That?s the competitor in me. I just like to compete. ?Sometimes I let (the demotion) get the best of me. Like I said, I wish I could get the ball every play. This is the NFL. This not college no more. It hit me. I had to sit down and really think about it. It?s another level. It?s a business. A lot of people get paid a lot of money to do things. ?My time will come. When my number?s called, I?m just gonna answer.? I think we can all cut West a break. At Towson University in 2013, he was handed the ball 413 times in 16 games and set FCS-school records with 2,509 yards and 41 rushing touchdowns. He was used to being The Man. Here, he is a promising player, but just the third-best running back. That can be tough to deal with. ?I mean, I?m a rookie,? West said. ?I?ve got to learn from the little things. By the time next year comes, it won?t happen again. I?m glad it started early.?
Winning games...their 3-2 not 5-0...they were 3-2 at the same point last yr....if u have any knowledge of sports it happens all the time...teams move on and try and get compensation for a guy who wont sign a long term deal....Hoyer probly doesnt net much in a trade option so u either trade him or ride out the season and he walks
lol, give me some more insight into your sports knowledge. It's become the favorite part of my day. Tell me more about how benching Hoyer is the move to make right now.
WOW!!!!!! Show me 1 time I said bench Hoyer right now....all I said was offer him a fair deal if he refuses the deal then I wuld need 2 move forward as an organization and see what Manziel can do...Hoyer is no longer considered part of the future at the moment he refuses Haslem, Farmer or whoever comes up w the #'s on the deal. Im not worried bout the locker room like u keep bringing up cause what if Manziel goes 3-0 when he gets the nod...yes he culd also go 0-3, but the players wuld know ahead of time that Hoyer wants more $ and we gave him fair market value
