If the Browns start to lose games then the possibility exists that Hoyer hits the pine and Manziel could start. That has not changed since the beginning of the season. But with every win it will be harder to make a change this season and if this regime attaches themselves to John in the off-season and he fails then they might all very well be looking at the unemployment line. Haslam does not have a track record of patience. This is why the Browns will ultimately get some kind of deal done with Hoyer. There is no way on earth that they are going to attach all of their futures to a QB that has every bit as much of a downside to him as there is the upside that some here keep preaching. You and I have had the John discussion before so there is no reason to rehash it, but I cannot see any reason why a second year GM/HC would want to gamble their future in the league on Manziel.
Because they have not even shown interest, let alone eagerness to this point. Until something shows me different form their part and language in press conferences with Hoyer say something different than "I want to be here, but only if I am the starter"..then I only have one thing to assume, he won't be here. The Browns don't really "need" to figure something out with Johnny, unless Hoyer doesn't improve consistently and/or sign a new contract. They have Manziel under contract for another 3-4 years after this season ends. There isn't really any hurry to do anything with Johnny until the Browns start losing and they find a need for something to help in that department. The Browns to this point have the enviable position of being able to groom a rookie QB from the sidelines instead of throwing him to the wolves. That is a great thing!! If Hoyer demands 1) to be named the starter prior to his contract signing or 2) demands "winning" QB money and not "player evaluated" QB money, then he will probably be moving on to a new team in 2015. The decision, imho, will be Hoyer's to make. I don't for one second think Farmer will simply say, we already have another QB and tell Hoyer to take his chances on the free market. When the time calls for it, I believe Farmer will take the evaluations of the coaching staff into account and make Hoyer a reasonable offer. At that point Hoyer will listen to his agent and make his decision. It beckons back to the question I asked earlier... Who believes Hoyer should be paid $15M+ per season? If you say no, then you are not yet convinced he can win a Super Bowl, if you say yes then you feel the Browns should do EVERYTHING in their power to re-sign him...money isn't an issue.
One point at a time: We have a fundamental disagreement here... IF they go on to win these next 3 games and have little need for Hoyer to do much to win them, then that will have little to do with their evaluations later in the season when more adequate means to measure his abilities come calling. If they are 6-2 in three weeks, then go on a 2 game losing streak to the Bengals and Texans with Hoyer not being able to lift the team when needed. Then it comes down to evaluating Manziel's progression. As for the regime, they have already attached themselves to Manziel when they drafted him in the first round. Again, this coaching staff and GM have already attached their futures to Manziel. Each and every man in that draft war room had their opportunity to stand up and say, this isn't a player we should gamble on. On the contrary, they stood up and said the opposite and the GM made a trade to go get him. Their job evaluation is already attached to Manziel, first in the means of pre draft evaluation and second in their ability to get him ready to play professional football. Hoyer is mainly a catalyst in helping them do their jobs more efficiently without making Manziel fend for himself on the fly before he is ready. In the end, this has been the best thing that could possibly have happened for Manziel. He will be better prepared when he does eventually take the field, and we all know it will eventually happen.
I find it laughable that some dink is reporting that Hoyer is demanding the starting job. I don't think Hoyer is demanding anything. Now maybe his agent on the other hand.........or maybe Cole is just continuing to fan the fires to keep people clicking on his web site with pure speculation and not letting the Manziel story die a quiet death, like it should at this point in time. Like that has never happened before....... But regardless, neither side has much to base a big payday on. The Browns would like to see if Hoyer is indeed what he appears to be, which is a capable QB in this system. Do the Browns want to see more improvement where Hoyer can post Top 10 numbers or is what he's doing now enough? Or is Hoyer having his "career year"? Who knows? And Hoyer's agent sure isn't gonna have his client sign on any dotted lines especially if there is the possibility of a playoff appearance in the Browns' future. That'll be worth some coin. At this point it's a no-win situation for either party. I can't see this for being more than a true BS rumor about Hoyer. Manziel hasn't been a headline in weeks and it all started with a "I can't believe the Browns haven't signed Hoyer to a new contract yet."
That's the beauty of it all Irish....If Hoyer kicks butt all year and takes the Browns on a playoff run, then "worse case scenario" from a business sense is that they have to franchise him...I don't think Cleveland lets him just walk out the door.. Anyway, we could speculate from now till doomsday on what they may or may not be thinking in the front office.....For the life of me though, I can't imagine them letting Hoyer walk if he wins the division or goes on a nice run in the playoffs.... not to mention the fact that Hoyer loves it here and everybody knows it....
and I've been saying all along that this is working out perfectly for Johnny....hopefully he's using his time wisely, all indications are that he is....Haven't heard anything silly out of Berea in a while, and thats good. At least he's learning.
Irish, between this comment and the previous post, you've laid out the argument better than most sports writers! The Browns would be negligent to offer Hoyer a contract until mid-January. His body of work is somewhere between incomplete to unimpressive. To guarantee a player "franchise QB" money (e.g., $10 - $12 million a year) based on nine games is ridiculous. The Browns (and those annointing Hoyer) would do well to wait until after the regular season when the dust has settled. Again, the first eight on the schedule is a cream puff... the second eight on the schedule is a gauntlet. It's one thing to be 3-2 now. It's another to continue that winning into the meat of the season and especially into the colder, winter months when throwing the ball is much trickier. Hoyer's got very poor accuracy and well-below average arm strength. I don't exactly see him being Mr. December. All that said, if we go on a tear and it is due to (not in spite of) Brian, by all means offer him the Alex Smith deal in the offseason. Johnny can sit and learn for a few seasons while Hoyer does his thing. Hoyer is 30... Manziel is 21. Whether it's Week 6 or Year 6, Manziel will get his turn. If Hoyer is for real, he'll prove it over the next 11 weeks and earn that contract.
Irish, We fundamentally disagree on this front office's attachment to John. They are in NO WAY bound to make him the starter. A first round draft pick taken #1 overall? Yep. In the top 10? Yep. #22 overall (and the second first round pick)? Nope. You are running under the assumption that he is what you believe he will be. The coaching staff at this point is simply taking him for what he is and if he does not progress into a starter then he will not be one unless they have no other options. It's simple really. John needs to show that he can execute the playbook with efficiency. If he shows that he wins the job. And that doesn't mean they have to bench Hoyer this season, they just won't resign him and move on with Manziel. And here's the kicker (and the one that you will disagree with the most), if Manziel has shown at the end of this season that he simply is not making enough progress then he immediately becomes another player on the roster which makes him expendable like everyone else. The Browns are playing themselves out of a top 10 pick. But they will have two #1s going into it and if they have a quarterback that they covet and they can make a deal to get him (given the above scenario that John is not progressing enough by seasons end) then what is stopping them from making a deal to go after another quarterback (and potentially deal John away)? Absolutely nothing if they get a deal done with Brian. Ultimately getting a deal done with Hoyer is the best move for Cleveland unless they are absolutely sold that John is the franchise QB they need and I do not believe that to be the case at this point in the season. To SAS point, I think paying him Alex Smith money is actually to high for his body of work and if Brian cannot understand that then the opposite of what I posted may be the reality. Which is Hoyer forces the Browns to start Manziel and let Brian walk. And I agree, they should take more time to evaluate before making a deal because it will become take it or leave it rather quickly IMO. It's a long season and a lot can change (for the better or worse for either QB), but as it stands right now a Brian Hoyer with physical flaws and high intellect is better than a John Manziel with above average physicals and a sub-par understanding of the playbook.
All apologies, this is most definitely against the union rules and I will make the necessary recompense.
Ur kinda hard to reason w cause u read what u want instead of what is written....I said if they offer Hoyer a fair contract extension and he refuses cause he thinks hes worth more, wants the job handed to him etc, then u have no choice but 2 see what u have w Manziel cause he will b ur starter next yr...Im not bullying him into anything...Im offering him a fair contract and he can sign it or refuse it...Im not low balling him, Im given him fair market value.
SAS, if they take this road, they wont have a clue what they have for next season..it culd b a big bang w Manziel or it culd flop in their face...they need 2 see him play and thats why I said offer Hoyer a deal now and if he accepts then u dont need 2 see Manziel
I'm not hard to reason with, I'm simply responding to what you post and in this case it was nonsense. You are still trying to say that it is acceptable to bench Hoyer because he turned down your contract. Again, that is beyond humorous. It does not matter what the contract is worth. If Hoyer turns it down and your answer would be to bench him to start John you would lose the locker room and burn bridges with players/agents. You know, the same thing I posted earlier but I'm sure you will try to find another way to work it. Go ahead and whip up a new one, can't wait to see what's next.
You're asking for it now Tim. Stopper has more side streets than New York City and he tends to drive down the wrong way on a one-way street the majority of the time. Good luck with that. *DRINK*
Actually SAS, I quoted an article earlier that speculates the QB tag to be worth $18 million. 50% more ridiculous than you assumed. *DRINK*
For the love of Pete!!! I can't believe how long this team has suffered at the QB position. Even more shocking though, is the fact that the Cleveland Browns currently have a QB that is playing very well, and yet it seems that just isn't good enough in the eyes of many. It's as if the past 15 years never happened....What the hell? I can't believe what I'm hearing from some of these fans...We finally have a guy that looks like a player, and I'm hearing every bullchit reason in the world about how this isn't actually good??? such as; Johnny is getting credit from some, because he is presumably "pushing" Hoyer to be better. lol!... Or....Hoyer isn't actually playing well, the Browns are getting the benefit of an easy schedule. lol!. THE BROWNS ARE GETTING THE BENEFIT OF AN EASY SCHEDULE! lol! ...Or...Hoyer is a "game manager" that is getting too much credit, because the Browns have a great running game. lol!....Good lord. That is SO absurd. Give me a break.... Dude is playing great....Browns are rolling.....Stop looking for reasons to be miserable, and enjoy the ride...Sorry if ya went "all in" on Johnny, but that's football....
Johnny, Johnny, Johnny. Someone posted what I thought to be very close to the mark, saying the coaching staff isn't evaluating Johnny college, but Johnny Cleveland, and thus far, that Johnny hasn't even reached the Hoyer level in their eyes. Hoyer for his part, hasn't reached "franchise QB" either, so the magic eight ball says "answer cloudy, ask again later". That's it. No one can state "factually", Johnny is a better QB than Brian. At the same time no one can state that Hoyer will always be the better choice, or that he'll attain "Top 5" status. Well gosh only 5 guys will get to say that, so what are we talking about? Fans want to get answers, They want to get definitive answers, but in reality, most decisions evolve from observation, and rarely does it become a black and white answer. Hoyer is winning, while not being paritcularly impressive as a fantasy player, and the "allure" of Johnny football is all in the minds of fans. Coaches make decisions on what they see "on the field" and so far Johnny hasn't caught up, or, like most coaches, they aren't willing to "fix something that's not broken". That isn't going to change either. I gotta believe Hoyer remains the QB until the team starts losing. Period. Why do we believe Johnny isn't Brady Quinn? Coaches generally do what Pettine has said many times: they put the guys out there each week they think gives them the best chance to win "this game". When that changes, we see Johnny.
Truth be told, I'm talkin to you Irish....Nobody cares what the trolls say. I'm surprised as hell that you are poking holes in just about everything Hoyer does... I respect you as much as any poster on these boards, but I am truly stunned that you are not seeing this for what it is...Cracking on Brian Hoyer's accuracy at every turn is completely ridiculous. He is making plays....Other than Denver and Dallas, I'm not sure if any offense is clicking better than Cleveland....But it's much much more than that. Do you really think JF could command that huddle like Hoyer is? Checking personel...making sure everybody is where they are supposed to be...Getting plays off in a timely fashion...Rallying these guys from huge deficits....I mean seriously, what more could he really do? He's the best in the NFL statistically on the deep pass, and that's without Josh Gordon! Who the heck would have EVER imagined that? I don't know bro...You are my dawg, but I don't get your take on this wonderful situation that we have going, at all...
Its the scheme not Hoyer...why is that so hard 2 figure out....he has thrown deep balls 2 WRs/TEs that were so wide open cause Shanahan dialed up the right call at the right time....just look at the Pitt game....Cameron and Dray shuld have walked into the end zone w a good throw but they both had 2 wait a long time for the ball...how bout Gabriel in the Balt game I believe, there are many other examples. I can 99.9% guarantee u Manziel makes both of those throws to Cameron and Dray and completes them if it unfolded in the exact same way....its the play call not Hoyer dropping a dime into blanket coverage
