Irish you make good points ( as is your habit ), and I especially like that you don't go "all or nothing" in your description of either QB (we'll go 7 & 9 with Hoyer, and what does that get us, or Johnny is "the franchise QB we've been waiting for" ) Some perspective is nice to see. Hoyer is playing as well as he has ever played. True. He had a longer incubation period, and is witout the expansive toobox, just how many games has he played?. Johnny's expansive toolbox advntage: mobility/ Thats if IMO, and his height couters that advantage as a QB. Scramblers are fun and exciting, but not bankable. Arm strength difference is marginal IMO, saccuracy, I don't know. The guy who gives us the best chance to win. YES YES YES. I don't want to sacrifice today's game for next year's agenda. Not yet. If we arrive at week 10, out of the picture, no one will have to be convinced it's Johnny time. If you are the head coach and this is pass / fail, then that question is asked each week, and thus far the answer has been Hoyer. When that isn't the answer it will change. I'm beginning to think Pettine is inserting Manziel for multiple purposes: 1 make opponents work on it, 2 apply pressure to Hoyer to keep performing, (Hoyer still has some convincing to do, and JF is a big investment) 3 to keep Johnny mentally in the game, 4 get Johnny on the field to gauge his adaptation/decision making/grasp of plays/ reads/reaction to pressure, etc.... You add at the end that if Hoyer establishes himself as the man, then you want to draft another QB again next year. ????? That seems out of the blue, if you believe Manziel is a potential franchise QB. Wouldn't he still be the best possible of any 1 - 2 combo, over anyone we would draft, or would you consider him "expired" if he couldn't take out Hoyer? In the end what I read from all the posts, is we are not comfortable with Hoyer as our "franchise QB", but at the same time we don't really know what JF is, or can be, so we end up arguing over how we get the answer on JF, when the starter is not offering the opportunity to make the move by screwing up. One last thing. I've said it before, and you reflect it above. JF wasn't ready to start at season kickoff. As coach Pettine Knew Hoyre would "run the O" better, more quickly than JF, and that helped the entire O get it together. I think that was unquestionably the right call. Now that the O has gotten their feet under them, your point about "when" does Johnny surpass Hoyer is on the table. I just think the coaches are already asking that weekly, and cannot discount the impact that move has on the O as a whole, both on the filed and in their minds (Hoyer is making it harder to make the move).
What is ur infatuation w the vets and having to explain to them ur every move....thats why their players and coaches decide who plays...there isnt 1 vet standing out and playing great ball...Thomas has been beat a few times already and has a few penalties, Haden giving up huge plays every game, Whitner no impact plays, Dansby in the middle is gettng shredded in the run game and Austin has 1 TD and not making many plays down the field...also, I never said sit Hoyer all I said was either commit 2 the guy long term or let Manziel play if Hoyer isnt in their future plans
That is precisely the case Kendawg! I do not see Hoyer as a franchise QB. I personally want a franchise QB, simply because we are never going to be 100% cupboard full of complimentary players every year. Thus, the elemental franchise QB is the equalizer and the reason some teams are perennial playoff teams, while others are not. IF, by year end, Manziel cannot surplant the QB that I don't see as franchise, then I would want to try another one in 2015 wince we have two first round picks and most likely some top notch QBs being available. I am a big fan of Marcus Mariota. If Manziel isn't the answer as determined by this coaching staff and GM, then I want Mariota.
I guess some of you guys read what you want to read and not what's actually written? I don't recall anyone saying "Hoyer sucks". There are some of us with legitimate concerns about Hoyer to take it to the next level. He's managing games right now -- and doing a darn fine job of it -- but if the defense doesn't improve, we're going to need to out-duel teams and Hoyer hasn't shown that ability yet. The defense is worse than advertised, the running game is much better than advertised. The Browns have the highest rush yards per attempt in the NFL. That's got nothing to do with Hoyer but a lot to do with our "success" through three weeks (success is in quotations because calling 1-2 successful feels cheap). That's a ludicrous statement to make. I agree. Hoyer will make a terrific backup to Johnny Manziel. How do you figure? We're 0-2 against the division, tracking at a 5-11 finish (.333 winning percentage) and for all the talk about "five points away from 3-0", we're also just two points away from 0-3.
Speak of the devil... and he shall appear. For starters, no one's said "bench Hoyer" yet. I can't speak for all the Manzealots?out there, but I would rather see Johnny playing 10 - 15 snaps per game after the BYE week and that doesn't mean you have to immediately sit Hoyer. Draw up a few more plays where he's a flanker, let him do more than just handoff draw to Isiah Crowell once in a while, put him on the FG unit, let him start the second half of a game after a successful onside kick attempt? Anything! Manziel made his mark in college football history by being clutch (and improvisational) in huge situations. The Browns desperately need this type of play to win games -- especially with their defense tracking at 25.7 PPG surrendered. As to the playbook, Irish already covered it pretty well but that was five - six weeks ago, at which point Pettine called Hoyer's lead "not insurmountable". In all honesty, the only reason we're actually having this debate isn't because Johnny hasn't caught up, but that Hoyer hasn't fallen flat. At 0-3 (or even 1-2 with some poor play), Johnny would have already been named the starter going into Week 5.
The real irony here is that you don't know they won't. You know just as much about that locker room as Irish or the rest of us: nothing. In the preseason it was 50/50 split. Many players admitted this. Winning cures everything, but we're 1-2. I would not think it a stretch that a few people in the locker room are upset at Hoyer for not delivering a third down in the two times he needed to the most. Joe Thomas said after the Baltimore game they "could have put up 40 points", but they didn't... that's either on the coaches or the players and it doesn't sound like Joe is putting it on himself (or the rest of the O-line).
Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers and Andrew Luck don't have a first round pick rookie star behind them on the depth chart. Brees and Rodgers have Superbowl rings. Andrew Luck was the #1 overall pick. Not exactly apples to apples when talking about an undrafted re-tread, career injury replacement QB with six NFL starts in as many seasons. This is true that it's not his fault -- entirely. Everyone is to blame for the 1-2 record. That said, if the coaches evaluate where we're at over the BYE and determine that our 31st ranked defense isn't magically going to transform into a Top 10 but our 13th ranked offense is one catalyst away from becoming really special, you'd better believe they make that move.
I'm gonna have to beat you to filing the trademark on this one SAS, unless you're willing to share proceeds netted. The fantasy football web sites will be paying a mint for use of the term "QBBC".
I brought them up do to seeing a lot of talk about Hoyer's 2014 record so far. Correct me if I'm wrong but the superbowl rings of the past or pedigree of being a first round pick aren't helping those QBs this season are they? And if after the bye the coaches feel Hoyer deserves to continue starting, will you agree with it then? The 31st ranked defense has a lot more room for improvement than the 13th ranked offense
It's laughable that you would say the success of the running has "Nothing to do with Hoyer"... if defenses didn't respect the passing game (Hoyer) they'd stack the box and dare Hoyer to beat them, but they're not... because he garners that kind of respect from opposing defenses!
Also, I can't find it now in the comments but I believe it was SAS who said (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) but that Hoyer hasn't shown to be "clutch", the guy has TWO 4 qtr GW drives in 6 NFL Starts, one of those starts he didn't finish due to injury, one against Cin last year didn't need a last drive to win.... So last year he went 1 for 1 on game winning drives, and this year he's 1 for 3, but realistically, the defense let this team down way more than the offense has IMHO... For all the "He's a career back-up" people out there, let's take a look at that too... He wasn't able to Unseat Tom FREAKING Brady in N.E., Big Ben in Pittsburgh, and wasn't able to win the starting job in Arizona after being claimed on waivers on December 10th... so I really don't see the "Career Back-up" as being very valid either! His season QBR is 71.9 and that's with no "Superstar" WR to speak of!
False. He wasn't able to unseat Kevin O'Connell and Matt Guitierez. He was third string to those guys during his time in New England. False. "Big Ben" was out four weeks with an injury. As was top back-up, Byron Leftwich. He wasn't able to to unseat Charlie "Methuselah" Batch. Over an injury Kevin Kolb, Max Hall, Ryan Lindley and John Skelton - all of whom are out of the NFL. You're right... it was more of a "placeholder". Who pays attention to QBR besides you and Merrill Hoge? Tim Tebow had seven in 14 starts... how's that working for him now? Hoyer needed to get one first down to ice Pittsburgh and Baltimore and was woefully unable to deliver. Maybe "clutch" is a bad word as it means different thing to different people, I expect Hoyer to deliver third-down conversions when we need him to and when we have a chance to put the game away. Sure, it's nice (and exciting) to watch a fourth quarter comeback, but I'd rather have lower blood pressure and less stress knowing that because we converted, we can take a knee and call it an afternoon.
Look, I'm not going to get into another pissing match about Hoyer's credentials. He was an undrafted free agent who was unseated by 3rd round draft pick Ryan Mallet as the team's backup. He also wasn't battling Roethlisberger for a job, he was battling Byron Leftwich and Charlie Batch...Then failed to mention he failed to beat out BRANDON WEEDEN I digress, I couldn't care less who he has backed, he has before this season been a backup, thus he has been a career backup 5 seasons, leading into his 6th season in which he beat out the current draft pick because he learned the playbook faster than the rookie. I will ALWAYS back Hoyer as the team's starter, but I will also see him for what he is.
Absolutely. I want the Browns in the best position to win and if they decide that it's Hoyer, then I agree. But as long as we continue to struggle, I'm going to continue to voice my concerns.
BEREA, Ohio -- Cleveland Browns quarterbacks coach Dowell Loggains has an inkling how Johnny Manziel will spend the bye weekend. ?I think that he?ll probably go watch the [Texas A&M] Aggies get beat by the Razorbacks,? Loggains said Wednesday. Spoken like a true former Arkansas quarterback. (Loggains was referring to Saturday's game at AT&T Stadium in Arlington, Texas.) Loggains said he would not ask Manziel to stay in Cleveland a la Brian Hoyer -- whose family is from Cleveland and home is in the Cleveland area -- because Loggains himself is going to Dallas to see his family. But he said he does trust that Manziel, who became a regular on the social media circuit in the offseason and was told to tone some of it down by the team when training camp started, will do the ?right things.? ?I?m sure that Coach [Mike] Pettine and Mr. [Ray] Farmer will address that with him,? Loggains said. ?We trust Johnny to do the right things. He understands that.?
Alright fellas. I'm jumping in on this QB conversation. The Browns do look like a better football team so far. Hoyer is doing his job. Moving the football and putting points on the board. I dont think he has thrown a pick, has he? The problem with this team is defense! Mainly the CB position. Joe Haden is highly overrated. He has been burnt all 3 games for big plays. Being the league's highest paid CB, he is not living up to his contract. Justin Gilbert also looks lost out there. I would rather see Buster Skrine starting. I know Gilbert needs time to grow through playing time. But considering who we could of had at #4 he looks bad. I know the Gilbert trade was for the future. We got another #1 next year and used the 3rd to get Manziel. I stated before the draft we needed to draft at least one starter with one of those 2 draft picks and we didnt. Future maybe but not NOW! If we would of walked out of the 1st rd with say Mathews/Carr, Mosley/Benjamin or Watkins/Carr I would be happy. There is 1 starter in position of need that could play right now in those pairings. But my point is this year Farmer is putting his stamp on the roster. OVERHAULING it. I'm excited that in 3 games the Browns could of won all 3. They just dont have the bullets yet to go for the kill. Look at the Browns of the 80's. 1. Good line 2. 2 headed monster at RB 3. Great TED 4. Small, quick WR's with hands 5. Kosar! smart qb who protected the football. Now look at the Browns offense today. Very much alike. The defense is what is totally different. Thats the problem. Not Hoyer. I say let him play and see where we are at. If we are 1-7 or 2-6 at the half way mark then its time for Johnny Football.
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns safety Jim Leonhard, who's played for Mike Pettine for six seasons, knows this defense almost as well as the head coach and knows exactly how to fix it. "In a lot of cases, it's guys trying to do a little bit too much other than just letting it come to them and taking care of their job,'' said Leonhard, who signed with the Browns as a free agent on July 30th. "The plays are going to come. That's the thing I try to preach to the guys in this defense is, you don't have to go find plays. You're going to have opportunities.'' The Browns defense has tumbled to 31st overall, including 27th against the run. It's yielding 153.7 yards rushing per game and 25.7 points a week, tied for eight-most in the NFL. "Every single game plan, whether it's he secondary, the outside linebackers -- every single group can look at the gameplan and says 'oh wow, I'm going to have chances to make plays here and here and here,'' said Leonhard. "You just do your job and plays are going to come to you and you really don't have to go out of the structure of this defense like some others.'' Leonhard, who's played for Pettine in Baltimore (2008), with the Jets (2000-11) and in Buffalo (2013) has heard this refrain before: the players start slowly in the new defense, and pick it up as the season goes along. "Sometimes it takes a little time,'' Leonhard said. "I've been there before where you start slow in this system and guys figure it out. Every place I've been, it's kind of been that struggle, with guys trying to do too much in the scheme. Hopefully we can get it corrected here in the bye week and not have that come up again.'' Last season, in Pettine's first season in Buffalo, the tried and true scheme resulted in the following rankings: No. 10 in overall defense, No. 1 in opponent's completion percentage, No. 2 in sacks (57), No. 2 in interceptions (23) and No. 3 in opponent's QB rating (74.9). He boasted similar top rankings in New York and Baltimore. "The more game reps you get, you realize it's like 'wow, it's us,''' said Leonhard. "It's not like we watch the tape and think 'there's nothing we can do to stop that.' In this defense, there's a lot of flexibility to help ourselves out. It's one, kind of understanding the defense a little bit better and two, play a little faster, and three, just not pressing. "We've got a lot of guys that are playmakers, a lot of guys that can impact games. And it's kind of letting it come to you rather than going to get it.'' The Browns are coming off a 23-21 loss to the Ravens, in which they gave up 377 yards overall, including 160 against the run. They let a rookie in Lorenzo Taliaferro run all over them for 91 yards on 18 carries. "We've faced some team that can run the football,'' said Leonhard. "Two of the three teams, they're going to run the football and they're going to find a way. But I do think the bye week comes at a good time for us being in the first year of the system defensively. "You can kind of take a step back early in the season rather than it being a little bit later. Maybe there's some things that we can easily correct going into week five, rather than hitting it later in the year where obviously you don't have that time to pause and reset. I think it's a good situation.'' According to profootballfocus.com, defensive players that have struggled so far in the new scheme include Ahtyba Rubin, who's -6.3 grade is 71 out of 72 defensive tackles after three games. The site also reports that Browns' opponents have rushed for 177 yards and a 5.1-yard average by rushing to their right and going straight at Phil Taylor who's ranked 50 out of 52 among 3-4 ends who have played 25% or more defensive snaps. Karlos Dansby is also coming off his worst game since 2011, according to the site. In the back end, profootballfocus.com has Joe Haden ranked 94 out of 96 cornerbacks. But Pettine shouldered much of the blame for the loss to the Ravens, and Leonhard understands exactly why. "You don't want to start pointing fingers at the player because (the scheme is so sound), and the coaches don't push that,'' Leonhard said. "They have a lot of confidence in it and they get that across to guys, but they're not saying, 'the scheme is great, it's you.' "I think guys are realizing to stop pressing a little bit, and the game will come to us. We're doing some great things. We just have to be more consistent and that's going to make the difference.''
SAS, I can't let the 10 - 15 snaps a week comment. Really!? Everyone seems to see the replacement of Hoyer as inevitable, and maybe it is, but where have we ever seen a platoon at QB ever work? OK there have been a few "plays" that worked, but no team splitting time at QB ever succeeds. How many years have we, as Browns fans seen a QB situation where no one is a bonifide starter? I believe in the QB being named and supported 100%, right up to the point you decide to make the move. Having your QB with one foot on the field and one on the sidelines, is disruptive and causes confusion for every player on the field IMO. If Hoyer is truly so mediocre, then that will show up, and let's not start talking about individual plays here, cause even the top guys have periods and plays they'd like back. It feels like those who support Manziel, can't live with Hoyer, but at least for me, I would be happy with whoever makes us winners. Like most people I expect Manziel will eventually become the starter, but I also believe that if Hoyer continues to run the O efficiently and we are in every game, it is hard to jump ship. That is a "right now" argument, it will no longer apply if we continue to lose. If the losses start accumulating, there will be a much stronger argument for getting Manziel out there, so we can evaluate what he has to offer the team. If we are losing as much as we are winning, the need to know what Johnny can do magnifies. As fans we want answers, that rarely come, because the results we get from making a change like that are rarely conclusive. Generally any new QB is going to make mistakes, and lose some games because of it. I would expect Johnny to make some "Oh my God" plays, but probably "good and bad". With the money spent on Johnny, one has to expect his name is on the starter's job, it's just the "when" we can't predict. Coaches faced with the opportunity to make the playoffs, generally don't upset the applecart, but if they see Johnny overcoming Hoyer in practice, they will make the move. It has been made into a very tenuous situation, by Hoyer performing as well as he has (not i didn't say elite or franchise). It lends itself to a year end conundrum, with Hoyer being expired as a Brown, and still performing well. Therin lies the biggest problem, but there are a lot of games to be played, and I'm willing to wait and see what happens, and I expect the coaches feel the same at this point. By mid season this begins to take on more weight, because of the need to know what Johnny has balanced against the need to make the pl ayoffs. Me thinks this will fester for most of the season, if Hoyer continues to run the O as he has up to now. Stay tuned Manzealots, Hoyerists, and Browns fans of all stripes. That argument is for "
I promised myself that I would no longer respond to SAS's arrogant attempts to belittle us, but this post has some blatant lies in it simply to make us believe he actually knows what the fuck he's talking about; New England Patriots' week 1 depth charts: 2009: T. Brady B. Hoyer (both M. Guitierez and K. O'Connell waived on 8/30/09) 2010: T. Brady B. Hoyer 2011: T. Brady B. Hoyer R. Mallett In 2011, Hoyer was in the last year of his rookie contract with the Pats and they just drafted another rookie QB in Mallett (who occupied the 3rd string spot during the 2011 season. Does anyone think that either Hoyer or Mallett were brought in to unseat Brady as the Pats starting QB?. If anything, it shows the Pats' front office will draft a QB to get a relatively cheap back up and then draft another one when the rookie contract is up. The pattern repeated itself this year when they drafted a rookie (Garropolo) one year prior to the expiration of Malletts' contract expiration. Both Roethlisberger and Leftwich went down with injuries within a week of each other leaving Pittsburgh with only Charlie Batch on their roster (and Hines Ward as a possible emergency QB). Hoyer was signed on 11/20/12. When Roethlisberger returned after four weeks, Hoyer was waived on 12/8/12. Even a drooling idiot on a short bus would be able to figure out he wasn't brought into Pittsburgh to compete for a spot. He was brought in to prevent the Steelers from having to lose one of their top WR's to play QB in the event that Batch got injured. About the only factual thing SAS posted is that Kolb, Hall, Lindley and Skelton are, in fact, out of the NFL. Its also factual that teams don't bring in players mid season to compete for any starting job. That's what the draft and free agency is there for. They do, however, bring in players to fill in for injuries and that is precisely what both the Steelers and Cardinals did.
For the sake of getting out all of the FACTs...let's carry this out a little bit more You left out the part where they signed Hoyer to his restricted free agency tender in 2012 for a modest guaranteed $1.92M, only to get beat out by Mallett in training camp and get cut in the final cuts in August..so he got paid $1.92M after getting cut...Shows how much the Patriots wanted to hold on to the veteran..(disclosure, I'm not sure if the subsequent contracts signed in 2012 cut some of the amount owed to Hoyer from the Patriots) But, I agree 100% Lym in your assessment of the Patriots finding backups in the draft. That is precisely the point that I wish we would eventually get to. In order to get to that point, you must find a franchise QB. Without one, you are ALWAYS looking for one. The point is, with the Steelers front office being as smart as they are...Why would they not keep a healthy Hoyer, who should have been able to impress them enough after being there for 4 weeks to replace the down trodden Byron Leftwhich and/or Charlie Batch? I don't think for a minute he would supplant Ben...although the way some are talking in here, maybe you would argue he should..but these mediocre backups being replaced by a "starting caliber" QB should have been a no brainer, yet he was cut as soon as his roster warming spot was no longer needed. Again, How did it ever get to the point where he was even available as a mid season fill in QB? It is widely speculated that Belicheat will make available players of high caliber when he no longer needs them. It is also widely speculated that if Bill holds on to a player for more than a year, that player must be high caliber..So the question begs, even if these other teams didn't know enough about Hoyer, why was it so difficult for Bill to get a trade value out of Hoyer to begin with. Then once released, why would no other teams want to hold on to such a high caliber commodity, even as a backup? Doesn't this have you wondering in the least?
