That was on the 20 yard line outside the "coaches box" between the 32 yard line markers... However, I just spent the past hour scouring the NFL rule book and cannot find anything pertaining to the reference from the "prognosticator referees" Page 64, which was cited by ESPN, refers to blocking and penalties for cut blocking etc... I cannot find anything about this sideline rule other than a player, if substituted must leave the playing field prior to the snap of the ball. The Browns substituted 2 players in and 2 left, just not Manziel...so I don't see anything illegal according to what I can read about substitutions in the NFL rule book. Granted, this is the 2013 rule book as it is the only one available on NFL.com... Also, Shanahan stated they practiced it all week with their in house referee and they understood it was a legal play as ran...except for the illegal shift call made on the field of course. (edit Just found a video of Pereira explaining why it was illegal and he called it an illegal hideout play between the bench area of 32 to 32. He stated if it occurred outside this bench area it would be legal. I did a search in the rulebook for hideout and there are no references to hideout in the entire rulebook. I don't know if he made this up to get on TV or what, but I can't find any reference to lining up outside 5 yards inside the bench area or anything...
Hoyer's QB rating was 127 yesterday. That's "off the charts" by Cleveland Browns' standards, and it STILL wasn't enough to win. The entire 4th quarter yesterday was a comedy of errors by the Browns. Every opportunity in the world to take total controll was there for them and they just choked. It certainly wasn't all on Hoyer, but he was decidedly un-clutch this week when the Browns needed him most....The special teams were a joke, and I think I've seen enough of Travis Benjamin returning kicks. I know he's a special talent and he will bust one loose from time to time, but he makes WAY too many bad decisions, and I don't get the sense he's all that confident in his catching abilities in windy Cleveland Stadium. (i know what it's called, im still calling it Cleveland stadium)....I can't put to much of this on Cundiff. He doinked a long one off the post in 25 mph swirling wind. It happens. The Browns have issues blocking for FG's on the right side. New Orleans was inches away from spoiling the fun last week. So we are 1-2 at the bye. Could easily be 3-0, and could just as easily be 0-3. At least we are entertaining. I know Browns fans don't want to hear that, but this year's (1-2) feels a little better than the many (1-2) starts we've seen in the past. I don't feel embarrassed by this team at all, so even though they found a way to lose, it still seems to me that they have come a long way since Pat Shurmur was here. Even though it did seem like Pat took over the game for our coaches in the 4th quarter! Not sure WHAT they were doin over there, but it wasn't helping! (deep breaths...deep breaths....relax...it's all over now) Oh well.... .I'm really really disappointed that the Browns didn't get the W yesterday. They really blew it. Let's hope they learn something about capitalizing on opportunities. They got two weeks to think about it, and you know this loss will linger...
OK, FINALLY found it... (edit it was on page 72 of the NFL rulebook Rule 12, Section 3, Article 1, sub section (k) After studying this rule though, I don't believe it applies to Manziel at all... See the rules are for substituting or substituted players. Manziel was neither. He was simply a player on the field, he participated in the previous play and didn't leave for the next play. This rule would have applied had he tried to draw the defense to him by lingering on the field, then leave the field right before the snap of the ball. As it reads, if a player enters the game for another player, thus being a substitute, he then cannot line up within 5 yards of the sideline when within the bench area. At least that is how I am reading this rule...I think Pereira had this one wrong and the on field referees got it right...
I already said I'm not going to get into a QB discussion. Its impossible to discuss something with a zealot. Not that being a zealot is a bad thing . . . the world needs zealots. You just can't discuss anything with them.
I'm not a zealot, I am more than willing to concede that this team is much better off with Brian Hoyer going forward, if he can prove something that he hasn't in the past 5+ seasons... I simply haven't been given any proof that he can lead this team to the playoffs consistently. On the other hand, we have a first round draft pick sitting and learning the NFL and system, that I personally feel will have caught up and surpassed what Hoyer can do for this team in short order. Once that happens, my personal view, is that having the more talented QB should be the one to lead this team. I would be willing to concede to Hoyer, without ever conceding Manziels ineptness, if he would simply give me reason to do so. JUST playing games without throwing an interception is no where near enough to do that. Right now, that is Hoyer's claim to fame...that and being the only QB since 1999 with a winning record at 4-2 (3-2 if you are one of those that doesn't credit the Bills start to his winning record). So I guess the question is, do we ride Hoyer until he has a losing record so that we can throw him into the trivia answer of all the losing QBs since the Browns returned to the NFL, or do we move on to a more talented QB and see what he can do in this league prior to having two draft picks in the 2015 draft? Before, you say I am being negative about Hoyer saying he will have a losing record...At this point of the 2014 season, he has been that "ultimate game manager QB" and he is 1-2, so it is a legit feeling that a losing record is what we may be headed towards...What I have seen from Hoyer to this point is Hoyer being the best Hoyer he can be. He is doing what he did last year, except possibly better since he hasn't thrown a pick. With him doing his Hoyer best, they are 1-2...We need someone who can do more than just a "Hoyer's best" performance. See Lym...there you go with your comments...pulling me back into the conversation!! Dammit!!
This is exactly the kind of crap the Browns coaches and F/O need to sort out. No one knows how Manziel is going to fare in the NFL -- for good, or bad -- until he takes the field. Do you let him do that in Week 12 once there's nothing left to play for in the season? In Week 1 of 2015 after Hoyer decides to take his talents elsewhere in free agency? Without a Pro Bowl year, Hoyer isn't getting the long-term, starter-style money he wants. And 64% completions, 238 yards and 1 TD a game isn't "Pro Bowl" level play. Honestly, it's got much less to do with being negative about Hoyer than it does being positive about Manziel. Right now, all Brian is doing is keeping the seat warm. What if Manziel is a total flop? Besides bluez wetting himself with glee, that only means we've wasted a year and potentially an entire draft, assuming we don't pick up a QB in 2015, by not exploring what Manziel can do. I happen to think he's going to be tremendous once he takes the field, but I wouldn't put my 2015 eggs in that basket just yet. The longer this team goes without finding a franchise QB, the longer it's going to take until we are a perennial winner.
Coach Mike Pettine was noncommittal Monday when asked if Ben Tate (knee) would return as a starter following the Browns' Week 4 bye. Pettine said the Browns are "eager" to get back Tate, but the performance of rookies Terrance West and Isaiah Crowell has "made it tougher" to lean on Tate in the manner the team initially planned. They wanted to use Tate as an every-down back. Tate remains likely to retake the Browns' lead back role when healthy and should be owned in all leagues. West and Crowell's fantasy stock will both be very much touch and go when Tate returns.
Heres my take...people can disagree, agree or give me 10 minuses, but I really dont care....IMO this is a wasted yr unless they extend Hoyer and commit to him or let Manziel play....to have Hoyer play and win 3, 5 or 8 games does nothing for them next yr....if they let Hoyer walk and not c what Manziel can do they will b starting over next yr no matter what their record was this yr....all it does it put more mileage on the vets and leaves the future clouded
I think we need to find out about Johnny too, but i also think Hoyer has earned his keep. I also think the coaches will insert Johnny when they feel he is truly ready. This is an all too familiar story. Got a guy doing OK, but another guy (Quinn) on the sidelines, you'd like to see enough of to know what he's got. Well it turned out Quinn didn't get on the field mainly because he just wasn't "all that". That may be what the coaches are seeing during practice with Johnny too, or it may simply be that until and unless Hoyer provides an opportunity they won't upset the chemistry. I felt Hoyer should start at season's opeining, at least in part because he could actually "run the offense" which IMO was vital to the team getting off the ground. By having a guy who had the discipline and the leadership to get the rest of the team on track. Can you imagine Crowell or West relying on Johnny to tell them where they are supposed to be, and what to do? I just don't think he's there yet. Once he is, then the conversation gets interesting. That will happen, but my guess is, the coaching staff doesn't think it has happened yet. But hey, I've been wrong before. I remember many a year when we kept playing the same guy, simply because we weren't technically eliminated, and well you never know, which came true, we never knew (what the other guy could do). Not a story I'd like to repeat, cause it feels like "never ending story".
dude relax..This is the NFL. You are all worried about next year? lol! you gotta be kidding...there is a loooong list of great NFL QB's that didn't get to start right away. I know you want to see Johnny play right now, but this is without question Brian Hoyer's team. He's earned it the hard way, and if you are the coach that you say you are, even YOU have to admit it. The Browns offense has been pretty damn good so far...You are all worried about next year?? gimme a break...This is a WIN NOW league. What the hell do you expect Pettine to do? C'mon coach....ur ass is on the line...are you really going to take a very effective Brian Hoyer out and throw in the hotshot rookie??? I don't think so..... I like Johnny Manziel too.....his time will come....but this is Hoyer's show right now.
So just asking...Hoyer goes 6-10 or 7-9 how does that help for next yr? Btw, what do I have to compare Hoyer 2? IMO, he has played against 3 pretty poor secondaries(cant deny that) and had a chance to keep the lead vs Balt and culdnt get it done on bak 2 bak possessions...we have seen enough games of Hoyer to realize he is not a franchise QB....that question is still TBD w Manziel so when do they find out?
You know what...Lyman's right...Be careful what you wish for. Many on this board said they would be happy just to be competitive, we have reduced ourselves to that... So, I give up, you all win. Let's shoot for the stars, a 7 win season, Hoyer starting 16 games injury afree and leaving via free agency in the off season. Let's spring forward to March when we are all talking about the draft.... Browns fan A: Well, Manziel couldn't beat out Hoyer, who was just average so obviously we need a QB in the draft... Am I getting close??
