Well PHUQUE! *WALL* *WALL* looks as if our D still has a tough time closing out games. *WALL* *WALL* I thought is would be better once the offense got going. *REF* :rolleyes:
I thnk Haden in smelling himself. He is not an elite corner, certainly not a shut down corner. The D, our alleged "strength" isn't, and special teams aren't, but other than that, great! Hoyer is making an awfully strong argument to be Cleveland's starter for the forseeable future. Johnny trade bait? Seriously. I can't see us going through the year without finding out what we have in Johnny, but it doesn't look like Hoyer is going to hand the coach a reason. This game makes for a very long couple weeks. Crap! Still a lot to like about this team, and if we get Gordon back while we are still at/around 500, well who knows ?
Updated at 5:52 p.m. There are team wins, when everybody pitches in and makes plays. Like against New Orleans. And there are team losses, when the offense, defense and special teams each contribute with eye-gouging mistakes compounded by confusion, ugly plays and wasted opportunities. Just very bad football. The Browns had one of those losses on Sunday. They blew opportunities on offense, suffered periods of sheer dreadfulness on defense, and botched kicks. The coaches had a bad day, too. And all of that equated to a 23-21 loss to the Baltimore Ravens on a last-second field goal. So the Browns have won a game against the Saints by two points and lost games by three and two to division rivals Pittsburgh and Baltimore. All three games have been decided in the last five seconds. ?It?s going to be a long two weeks,? said quarterback Brian Hoyer, referring to the team?s upcoming schedule bye. ?We?re going to be mad at ourselves. This will hang with us a little longer. We have no one to blame but ourselves.? For Mike Pettine, it was a coaching nightmare. His defense was shredded on the ground by a rookie making his NFL debut, and his pride and joy ? cornerbacks Justin Gilbert and Joe Haden ? failed at the end. His offense got too tricky early and couldn?t capitalize on Hoyer?s highest passer ranking (127.1) as a Brown. The kicking team blew one field goal and had another blocked, and punt returner Travis Benjamin let a fair-catchable punt sail over his head and be downed at the 7 with 2:19 to go. Overall, the Browns committed 12 penalties, including two for having 12 men in the defensive huddle. They burned a timeout to avoid a third. ?I put this one on me,? Pettine fumed afterwards. ?We didn?t coach well enough to win today. I?m not going to get into specifics. The list is long.? For much of the day, the Browns were taking it to one of their rivals who had dominated them for 15 seasons. Through three quarters, Hoyer completed 17 of 19 passes and rookie backs Isaiah Crowell and Terrance West each had touchdown runs. As the third quarter wound down, Hoyer?s 4-yard touchdown throw to Miles Austin gave the Browns a 21-17 lead ? the fifth lead change of the game. The fourth quarter blew up into a comedy of errors. It was one of the worst quarters of football, a surprise relapse of the losing mentality Pettine and Hoyer and others have worked so hard to change. Here is the list of foul-ups, bleeps and blunders that comprised the Fourth Quarter from Hell: * Paul Kruger?s hit on Joe Flacco caused a flutterball that was intercepted by Tashaun Gipson and returned to the Ravens? 30-yard line. Four plays later, Billy Cundiff?s 50-yard field goal try in swirling 23 mph winds banged off the left upright with 13:26 to play. * After the defense finally stopped rookie Lorenzo Taliaferro (91 yards, one TD, on 18 carries) on a fourth-and-1 carry at the Browns? 21, Hoyer found receiver Taylor Gabriel open five yards behind safety Matt Elam. For some reason, Gabriel fell after making the catch at the Ravens? 28. He jumped up and raced to the 9. The Browns proceeded to lose 9 yards on the next three plays. Hoyer killed the second down because of miscommunication with a back. On third down, he lost track of geography and threw to Austin in the end zone from five yards beyond the line of scrimmage. Consequently, Cundiff?s field goal try was moved back for a 36-yard effort. It was summarily blocked. ?We?ve got to be better,? said punter and holder Spencer Lanning. ?We can?t leave six points out there. The first one, the wind was pretty bad and (the snap) wasn?t as clean as we?d like. The second one was just a breakdown in fundamentals.? * Baltimore kicked a short field goal to close the Browns? lead to 21-20 at the 5:00 mark. The blunders on that 71-yard Flacco march were a 31-yard pass interference penalty on Gilbert against Torrey Smith, one penalty for 12 men in the huddle and a burnt timeout to avoid another. Oh, yeah, the drive was jumpstarted on three runs by Justin Forsett for 38 yards right out of the gate. Linebacker Karlos Dansby, who railed about the run defense during the week, said, ?We have to play technically sound and make better plays. That?s the nuts and bolts of it right there.? * The Browns? offense had two more possessions to close out the game. The first expired in 47 seconds. The second one, which was set up at the 7 because of Benjamin?s decision not to catch Sam Koch?s punt, consumed a total of 8 seconds. ?I wasn?t afraid at all,? Benjamin said. ?I got up under the ball correctly and at the last minute a gust of wind blew it and it went past my hand. I didn?t want to go back and reach for the ball, so I just let it pass by.? Hoyer threw the ball well all day (19 of 25 for 290 yards, one touchdown and his fourth complete game in a row without an interception) but suffered his first loss at home as a Brown. ?We made a lot of plays but we didn?t make them when we really needed to,? Hoyer said. After Lanning?s 40-yard punt, Flacco took over at the 50 with :58 left and no timeouts. On second down, Steve Smith Jr. beat Haden on a perfectly thrown pass for 32 yards down to the Browns? 12 to set up the game-winner. ?There were a lot of opportunities, but we pride ourselves on going on the field, making plays and getting stops and I just didn?t do that today,? Haden said. ?He just got me on a go route.? For the second game in a row, rookie quarterback Johnny Manziel made a cameo appearance. He came in for successive plays in the second quarter and actually caught a pass from Hoyer on the latter one. Of course, it was nullified by a penalty. After handing off on his first play, Manziel walked toward the sideline and made a hand gesture towards offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan to throw confusion into the Ravens. Manziel stopped before leaving the field, however, and Hoyer, sneaking back in, made a quick snap and threw to Manziel down the left sideline. The play would have been worth 39 yards, but West was flagged for an illegal shift because he didn?t set long enough after motion. Later, former NFL officiating chief Mike Peirera, now a FOX analyst, wrote on Twitter that the play was illegal because no player can line up within five yards of the sideline when the line of scrimmage is in the ?bench area,? which is marked off between the 32-yard lines on either side of the 50. ?It was our understanding that where he was lined up was sufficient,? Pettine said. The Browns hit their bye week with a 1-2 record. Both losses came to division rivals Pittsburgh and Baltimore when the clock ticked down to zeroes.
A serious failure to win Over the years, the Browns have come up with many different and wonderfully creative ways to lose football games. You name it, the Browns most likely have done it. You don?t rack up the National Football League?s worst overall record in the last 15 seasons without a wide variety of self-inflicted wounds. Sunday?s 23-21 loss to the Baltimore Ravens in front of the home fans only added to the massive amount of frustration those fans have built up since 1999. It was just another case of the Browns turning a victory into yet another loss. By now, they are used to it. You could almost see the loss coming. Justin Tucker?s third field goal of the game with no time left was almost anticlimactic as the Ravens remained composed down the stretch despite being down by one. The Browns, predictably, fell apart. Whenever they needed a big play, especially in the fourth quarter, they failed. Missed opportunities R (imagine a reversed R) the Browns. Whenever the Ravens needed a big play, they nailed it. With five minutes left in regulation and down a point, the Ravens needed a stop. They got it, forcing the Browns into their first three-and-out of the afternoon. But the Cleveland defense, which surrendered another 377 yards of offense, struck back and forced Baltimore coach John Harbaugh to make a tough decision. Well, tough might not be the appropriate adjective here. After all, these were the Browns, a team he has lost to just once. Facing a fourth-and-long at his 35, Harbaugh chose to punt with a 2:19 left and the distinct possibility the Ravens might never see the ball again. But these were the Browns, not the Pittsburgh Steelers or Cincinnati Bengals, teams that rarely blow games. Harbaugh just knew they would somehow screw up their next possession. He believed the Browns would dig deep into their well of misery and somehow mess up. And that?s exactly what they did. After Travis Benjamin allowed Sam Koch?s punt to bounce to the Cleveland 7 (bad move), all the Cleveland offense needed was just one first down to win the game since the Ravens burned their last two timeouts during the possession. One stinking first down. Is that too much to ask for? With this team, that?s a rhetorical question. Brian Hoyer, who was magnificent in the first three quarters (17-of-19 for 214 yards and a touchdown) failed to deliver when it mattered most, throwing behind Andrew Hawkins in first-down territory on third down. A second straight three-and-out and the Ravens, after Spencer Lanning?s mediocre punt, began their winning drive at midfield. One big play. That?s all the Browns needed on either side of the ball. Just one big play and the game would have been over. All they received was failure after failure to come through in the clutch. That?s obviously what Harbaugh thought when he decided to punt. Then it was the Cleveland defense?s turn. It was their turn to come up with the clutch play. An interception (they had one already). A fumble. A sack. Anything that would stanch the momentum. It took only two plays against that porous defense to put the Ravens in position to win the game. Wide receiver Steve Smith got behind Joe Haden. Joe Flacco bought some time in the pocket and then hooked up with Smith on a 32-yard pass play. Smith is the Ravens? best receiver. How and why he was allowed to get so open between Haden and strong safety Donte Whitner is something the coaching staff will have to explain. It should never have happened. Four plays later, Tucker hit the game-winner. Despite all this misfortune, the Browns still had every opportunity to win this game. The Cleveland offense played so well in the first three quarters, it moved offensive tackle Joe Thomas to say after the game his team ?could have had easily 40 points.? Coulda, woulda, didn?t. Tashaun Gipson?s interception on the first series of the fourth quarter set up the Cleveland offense at the Baltimore 30-yard line. The offense proceeded to slam it in reverse. Three plays and minus-two yards later, Billy Cundiff?s 50-yard field-goal attempt caromed off the left upright and bounced the wrong way. The very next Cleveland possession should have resulted in a 79-yard touchdown pass to rookie Taylor Gabriel that would have given the Browns a 28-17 lead with about eight minutes left. Shoulda, woulda, didn?t. Hoyer hit a wide-open Gabriel around the Baltimore 25, but he misjudged the ball and had to jump to corral it at the last second, falling untouched to the ground. He got back up, but was chased down by Jimmy Smith and brought down at the 9. And that?s when Murphy?s Law returned. Three straight negative plays later (reverse gear again), Cundiff could have given the Browns a four-point lead with a field goal, meaning the Ravens would have needed a touchdown to take the lead. But Asa Jackson, the outside man on left side of the kick-block line, which was overloaded to the kicker?s right, burst free, brushed off a token slap to the chest by Cleveland?s Billy Winn and smothered the 36-yard attempt. The missed opportunities just kept on coming. It was at this point that the inevitable starting coming into focus. The Browns were doing everything to lose this game and the Ravens, understandably, were not going to stop them from doing so. Along the way, the generous Cleveland defense made stars of Lorenzo Taliaferro and Kyle Juszczyk, a couple of unknowns who had never before this game touched a football in a regular-season game. They looked like seasoned pros. Taliaferro was in the lineup only because the Ravens were short-handed at the running back position with the Ray Rice suspension and an injury to Bernard Pierce. The rookie looked like a veteran as he sliced the defense for 91 yards and a touchdown. Juszcsyk, a Cleveland-area native who played his high school ball at Cloverleaf in Lodi, caught three passes for 54 yards, scored once and delivered numerous crunching blocks for Taliaferro and Justin Forsett as the sieve-like Browns run defense was shredded for another 160 yards. As it turned out, it was just another losing day at the office for the Browns at the Factory of Sadness. This one will fester a little longer. The bye is next. Depending on your perspective, it couldn?t have come at a better time. Posted by Rich Passan
Disappointing -- this was a team loss from top to bottom. The Browns had multiple opportunities to put this game away and failed to do so. A few of the glaring concerns: For the third time in three weeks, the defense has looked somewhere between disgusting to mediocre. Most glaringly, our run defense is allowing below-average running backs to have career days. Justin Gilbert, still unable to beat out 5'6" Buster Skrine for the starting job, is still surrendering huge plays or making mental errors constantly. Paul Kruger, Jabaal Sheard and Barkevious Mingo all on separate plays failed to remember the most basic duty of the outside linebacker spot -- one jammed into one's head in junior ball: "counter, reverse, boot" -- and gave up outside contain numerous times. Not impressed by this "defensive-minded" coach's job thus far.[/*] The offense was humming most drives, especially the running game, but the lack of star power is still being felt. The biggest plays came from huge breakdowns in the Ravens' secondary that we were able to take advantage of, not one-on-one match-ups or one of our players out-performing. I've been critical of Kyle Shannahan's offense, but he has done a pretty good job with game planning and the zone-blocking run game looks like a keeper. The Hoyer loyalists (Hoyalists?) are going to anoint him of course, but I still have a lot of concerns surrounding his game and more importantly, I want to see what we have in our flashy first round pick -- aside from a few gimmicky plays to try and throw off the defense.[/*] Special teams. Ouch. Billy Cundiff has got to go. Travis Benjamin looks pathetic and made a couple really bad choices in that game. Punting is mediocre as well. The new rules all but eliminate the kickoff returns, so how can our special teams be so bad?[/*] And so, all that said, we're at 1-3 heading into the BYE, which is where most (if not all) around here assumed we'd be. We've played competitive, although at many times tentative, football and have some things to build upon going forward. Still a lot of unanswered questions about this team, however.
Reading between the lines here, I feel like I'm being considered one of these "idolaters", yes? I can admit that I think Manziel is an exponentially superior talent to Hoyer. However, it's not just a blind faith, nor do I believe he is the be-all, end-all. I do believe that he has a much higher ceiling and would love to see it play out on the field. My stance is this: play Manziel early and often to see what you have in him. With two first round picks (both likely on the higher end) and a slew of college QBs coming out in 2015, you will know if you either (1) have something to work with in Manziel or (2) need to address the QB position again. Hoyer is a not a long-term solution and the longer we keep Manziel on the sidelines, the less we know about his potential in this league. If right now the only difference between Manziel and Hoyer is an understanding of the playbook, I don't think it will take a series of interceptions. Hoyer played a very solid game against Baltimore, but had to get a lot of help from his receivers and for the second time in two losses, could not garner the first down when we needed it most. Hoyer is solid and manages the game well, but this is a team with a dearth of super stars and Manziel's stardom is undeniable. Right now, this team is competing, but they're not winning in the clutch and they're not taking the game over. Joe Thomas said after the game the offense was "playing well enough" to put up 40 points. Really? Not with game managing the QB position and not without a few budding stars taking over.
I tend to agree with Sammy but for mostly different reasons; So much for the second coming of Dixon and Minnefield. I expected Gilbert to have a rough start in his rookie year - most rookies do. However, I never expected Joe Haden to be routinely torched the way he has been in every game so far. Yea, I know receivers get paid too but, he just got HANDSOMELY paid and he is not living up to his paycheck. Worse, he's getting torched for TD's, not just big gains. Not quite certain if Sam is referring to "star power" in the running game or generally speaking overall. Some in here doubted Ben Tate's durability and, so far, they have been proven correct. However, the duo of West and Crowell have shown (so far) that they are up to the task. Keep in mind, they are BOTH rookies and BOTH are requiring DC's to respect the Brown's run game. Along these lines, it appears the O-Line is solid. Can't even really complain to much about Schwartz. I just hope the rest of the team catches up to them before Thomas turns into me (too old to do anything about anything). The receiver corps is A LOT better than most predicted. They're still the weakest group on the team but they are far from being an embarrassment. They will get better if they stay healthy and could be a bigger contributor when Gordon returns (assuming he's in football shape and in sync) but, by then it will be too late. Hoyer has been solid. Not spectacular but not bad either. After three games he's ranked 18th for Passer Rating, 16th in Completion Percentage, 10th in Yardage and 22nd in Passing TD's. He has yet to throw an interception (and I don't believe he has lost a fumble). I will not get into yet another Hoyer / Manziel debate but . . . . . . how's RGIII's stardom working out? On the Manziel trick play - no problem with Johnny here. He did exactly what he was coached to do . . . perfectly. But even if Agnew hadn't jumped, the play itself was illegal. With the exception of one player who is allowed to be in motion, ALL offensive players must have their shoulders parallel to the LOS. Shanny should have known that. For years now, some of us have been saying that we just want to be competitive (myself included). Be careful what we wish for.
You can't lay this one on Hoyer alone. He shouldn't have had to make the first down. Our kicker blows and the defense didn't hold up their end yesterday, either. Yes, I agree that Hoyer and the rest of the offense had to get it done since it was laid in their laps and they didn't. Would a "playbook competent" Manziel have made the difference? Not so sure he would have done much better. The play calling was rather conservative and the line wasn't blocking substantially well on the first two downs. And, yes, it came down to one incomplete pass on third down. However, after the punt it was on the defense to stop the Ravens. And the one pass to Steve Smith killed us in the end, as well as a crappy short punt to give them mid-field to start with. I'm still relatively sure had, the defense not imploded at times during good portions of the game and had our special teams played better (kicking and punting) it could have been a 10-13 point win yesterday.
At times, SAS, at times. But not in the same stratosphere as our dear friend Stopper. At least you offer something other than solely belching up unfounded opinions as your arguments.
Agreed, Duff. I was calling out everyone who contributed. As I said, this was a team loss. Hoyer played really well for three quarters -- he just came apart at the end, as did everyone else on the field wearing brown. Again, agreed... this was a team loss. Difficult to prove a hypothetical, but I have to believe the answer is yes. Clearest example would likely have been the 3rd and goal when Hoyer was flushed and scrambled forward and completed a pass to Miles Austin roughly 8 yards over the LOS. That's about as rookie a mistake as I've ever seen a non-Lions QB make. In that situation with Manziel in the game (at quarterback), I would have expected him to keep going and turn in a TD on the scramble. Ditto the 3rd and 6 when we needed a first down and couldn't get it done. That's an instance where I'd like to see what a natural playmaker like Manizel can do. If he scrambles and gets it -- we're talking about a hard-fought victory instead of a hard-fought loss. Tentative is the word I used to describe it. For all the talk of finishing games, toughness and being "new Browns", it sure feels like there's a lot of old Browns in this team. Pass / fail or win / loss, right? This was a loss. We're 1-2.
I don't mind where the star is... I'd just like to see one. Our best player - Joe Haden - is looking like a struggling rookie, not the highest-paid cornerback in the NFL. Is Josh Gordon our only hope? :-* He's injured, Lym... not sure how that can be held against him. How about looking around the League and picking any lone other star out there? Julio Jones (my guy) was nasty on Thursday. Andrew Luck looked phenomenal against Jacksonville. And besides, despite the injury, RGIII has a better QB rating than Hoyer and a better win percentage this season.
OK, so I did a little searching over our seemingly new conundrum in the defensive backfield. Although I am not giving Haden a pass, if you do a little research, almost every team in the NFL is having similar issues with their "star" DBs. What I can attribute it to is the leagues enforcement of the old rules. Look at all of the penalties in the preseason. They were for illegal contact, which is almost invisible on tape. Haden was incredible at using his hand as a 3rd eye when defending these receivers. That hand was constantly in contact with the receiver even though it didn't interfere with the receivers motions and in the past, there was no penalty. NOW, as soon as his hand hits a jersy, a little yellow hanky came flying out... It isn't just him, Sherman, the self proclaimed best CB in the NFL is having the same issues. This isn't an issue with Haden it is a NFL epidemic to get more offense. Now, as far as Gilbert is concerned, he is getting hit double barrel, not only is he having to adjust to the NFL, but also the new enforcement of these rules, which are no where near as stringent in the college game. All DBs need an adjustment period, but the days of the shutdown corner are gone my friends. The NFL has made sure of that. So, now the first round of the draft will be reserved for QB, OT, LB/DE (pass rushers) and WR. You might as well move every other position to the next level of players ala RB and TE..although I think the TE may make a comeback as well.. I am staying out of the QB conversation, I will let you guys hash that one out. All I will say is that Hoyer is a great game manager. At some point you need a play maker...and that point just happened to come yesterday. The game manager will get you between 7-10 wins per season, and I see Hoyer getting us just that this season.. The play maker gets his teams 9-14 wins per season...THAT is the difference, playoffs with the game manager, 2-4 times over his career, playoffs with the play maker 7-10 times over his career.
That's the whole point SAS, He's Injured, and he's injured quite often.... His playing style lends itself to being injured, which lends itself to hurting the team! Manziel is in the same mold, only slower, so I believe Lym is trying to point out that, while RGIII (and Manziel) may be "Play makers" they're going to end up on I.R. more often, and that doesn't help a team, it hinders them...
Sorry JYD, but you are wrong with your point that Manziel is a slow version of RGIII... RGIII looks for contact, not unlike some RBs and receivers...Manziel looks for the sideline and slides when he can't reach it. The only time he really puts himself in harms way is when he is close to the endzone or needs to get to the yard marker for a first down. EVERY QB in the NFL of substance put themselves in harms way under those same circumstances...Manning does it, Brady does it, Rodgers does it... But Manziel in the end IS a play maker..who doesn't put himself in the same harms way as some other QBs like RGIII and Kaepernick.
ok, i didn't see the play in question, so help me out here, please. are u saying that this was not a mistake in execution, but rather a play that was illegal as drawn up? if it's the latter, "shanny should have known that" doesn't even begin to cover it - and either does "pathetic". "inexcusable" comes to mind, tho.
Yes, that's the case...There were two issues with the play (besides the illegal motion penalty) and both were with how Manziel "lined up". first off, a player cannot line up within 5 yards of the out of bounds lines, he was about 2 yards away. Second, all players who are not in motion must have their shoulders parallel to the line of scrimmage, his were perpendicular as if he were "talking" to the coaches on the sidelines to deceive the defense (which is also in the rules as a no no, but I don't know how that would be enforced). It is inexcusable and I would hope any future plays will fall inline with the rules... (edit I should also note these rules apply when they are within the coaches box from 32 yard line to 32 yard line...There is also something of note about the coaches removing their headsets while a player is in an "illegal" position, but I don't recall all of that and the coaches DID NOT have their headsets removed, so that is a moot point.
Uh-oh. http://www.steelers.com/video-and-a...s-Browns/53611df2-785f-4996-a030-eeaa18d6e022 This wasn't 5 yards...
