Looking forward . . . Its Goat week ! Spoiler [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-QcWVPFxGA[/video]
This is MY PERSONAL reasoning Tim... Brian Hoyer was a prospect out of Michigan State who had no college resum? to even get drafted. Look at his body of work at Michigan State and you will see WHY he was never drafted. He was lucky enough to get signed by the New England Patriots where he did at least learn how to prepare for an NFL career behind one of the best in the business. THAT is his claim to fame, his tutelage under Tom Brady. In college he was a 56% passer who threw nearly as many INTs as TDs... After 3 years of learning under Tom Brady, he got his chance to start for the Browns in 2013...His stat line was: 59% passer with 5 TD and 3 INTs, pretty much the same player coming out of Michigan State after 3 seasons learning behind Tom Brady. Cleveland fans are easily impressed...Hoyer happened to be starting when they won 2 games. HE didn't win those games, but now all of a sudden he has been placed on a higher pedestal because of 2 wins. Hell, I was as happy as any other fan at the time. It doesn't change the fact that Hoyer's best asset is that he learned the game behind Brady and has shown to be an above average backup...but that is in fact what he was drafted to be, what he has shown to be in his 5 years in the NFL and what he remains going into 2014. I don't know what Johnny Manziel is at this time. He could be the same or worse. But what I do know is that in college he was a leader of men at Texas A&M and I am not the only one who thinks he could be a leader of an NFL team...the Browns front office drafted him in the first round, even moving up to do so. As a Browns fan, I am looking for sustained success from this team which is something we haven't seen since the VERY early 90's. As a Browns fan, I am trying to figure out what the best chance is for that success to occur. Right now going into week 3 of the pre-season I have two choices; 1- A career backup QB, who won two games the previous season 2- A first round draft pick, who is seen by a multitude of experts as having a chance to be something special We can, delay the inevitable and start Hoyer, a career backup talent or throw Manziel in who will learn faster in the fire than sitting on the second unit running the other teams plays against the first unit in practice. THIS is the decision I choose, let Manziel sink or swim. We have two first round draft picks in 2015. If Manziel can't show some signs in 2014, then I want to know that now so that I can find another prospect in 2015, or 2016 or 2017 or until I find one that can lead this team consistently. Not, waste another opportunity in practice, preseason or regular season games on a guy who has shown from his freshman year in college till the start of his 6th year in the pros that he is an excellent backup QB option. I will root as hard for Hoyer as Manziel since he is the named starter, but... You wanted an opinion laid out, there is mine, don't hold it against me.
Browns fans might never know what the deciding factor was in Mike Pettine naming Brian Hoyer the starting quarterback for the team. Was it the status quo? The experience factor? or was it due to the 'One Finger Salute?' Hoyer, who was in a quarterback competition with rookie Johnny Manziel had a lackluster preseason to date. Hoyer was just 2-of-6 for 16 yards in Monday night's loss to the Redskins. "He was the clear leader from the beginning," Pettine released through the Browns website. "We've maintained all along that if it was close, I would prefer to go with the more experienced player. Brian has done a great job in the meeting rooms and with his teammates on the practice field and in the locker room." Hoyer is coming back from a torn ACL he suffered last October against the Bills. Pettine said it was Hoyer's total "body of work" that helped make the decision. Through two preseason games Hoyer is 8-of-20 for 108 yards with no touchdowns or interceptions. Manziel,--who received much attention,mostly negative, for his raising of his middle finger to the Redskins bench-- is still expected to play at some point this season. "(Manziel's) certainly made great strides," Pettine said. "We are pleased with where he is, and he has shown that he has come a long way in his ability to pick up the playbook, be coachable and lead an offense. We are confident that Johnny is going to have a great future, but we just felt that Brian still had a decided edge on him."
I can understand that opinion, and it is the same one you have had throughout so I would never hold that against you. It still remains though that Manziel has done absolutely nothing this preseason to convince the coaching staff otherwise and for the multitude of experts believing he can be something special - John has always had his detractors too and some believe the Browns will be drafting a QB in the first round next season. We could get back into our discussion on Manziel's resume but you and I have a far different opinion so we can table that debate until we actually see John in a starter's capacity. For now, I know that John did nothing to win the job and has shown no indication that he is an NFL ready quarterback or a future franchise QB in the making. At best, he has shown that what I posted early in our discussions regarding John's game have been accurate.
But here is the crux of your opinion Brian Hoyer has shown NOTHING to win the job either... he at least has had 5 years to get ready for this competition and it has led to this: (reference Tony Grossi article on ESPN Cleveland) Hoyer Possessions: 7. Points: 9. Stats: 8 of 20 (40.0%), 108 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT, 1 sack, 57.9 passer rating. Third-down conversions: 0 of 7. Manziel Possessions: 8. Points: 10. Stats: 14 of 27 (51.9%), 128 yards, 1 TD, O INT, 3 sacks, 7 runs for 28 yards, 77.4 passer rating. Third-down conversions: 8 of 16. Fourth-down conversions: 1 of 2. To say one QB hasn't done more than the other is not a valid argument... Hoyer 0-7 on 3rd down Manziel 8 of 16 on 3rd down and 1 of 2 on 4th down... Winner Manziel Winner by default according to Pettine, Hoyer Winner Hoyer
Irish, You know as well as I that the stat line you have provided does not show what has transpired on the field in its entirety. Playing against starters vs scrubs combined with the clip that was provided earlier in the thread shows that John is nowhere near ready to be the starter of this team. We have had the opportunity to watch both of them play on the same field and John has done nothing to make himself look better than Hoyer. In fact, he has looked less the QB. Now, add into that the fact that Hoyer has been better than John in practice and it is easy to see that John simply lost this competition. And the worst part? All of the other points you have made about Hoyer should lead us to believe that a first round pick that some believe will be a franchise signal-caller would easily win the job. He failed.
Tim, I had planned a very lengthy reply to your earlier comment (6,049) but it's clear from the back-and-forth with Irish that you're a staunch Manziel detractor and no amount of statistical or anecdotal evidence is going to sway that. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. You go out of your way to make statements like this, despite Manziel out-performing from a purely statistical standpoint. It is clear you hold something like his middle finger episode higher than the fact he flat-out played better. Also, the notion that because he played "against inferior" competition is bogus since he also played with "inferior competition". The facts are simple: In the Lions game (with second string players), Manziel was the best player on the field. He was faster, stronger, more accurate and more decisive. Hoyer was very bad in that game. In the Redskins game (splitting time with first string players), Manziel was bad. He looked slower and much less decisive. He let his temper get to him. Hoyer was even worse, converting 0 of his 5 third down attempts, completing only 2 passes all night and failing to deliver a touchdown, despite the opportunity. Your opinion I'll have to disagree with. Your recollection of the facts is somewhat worrisome.
I'll chime in here... just because I can! I personally don't think JFF is ready... It doesn't look like he has a grasp on the playbook, it doesn't appear that he goes through his progressions as quickly as he should. He doesn't appear to be on the same page as his WR's (TE's). I think Pettine made the right choice, he needs to sit and learn the playbook, how to read that a blitz is coming, how to audible... Do I think Manziel is better than Hoyer? Yes, just not right now! The game appears to be WAY to big/fast for him!
They have both been horrible in the 2 preseason games if you are looking for the things needed to be a quality starter in the NFL. But to try and say that John has played better than Brian based on the statistics of those 2 preseason games is completely misleading. The games are there for everyone to watch, I am positive Irish and yourself have watched both. In what situation has John looked to be a starting caliber signal caller in this league and where has he preformed at a level on the field (game or practice) to make anyone believe he should start or could lead the Browns to more wins than Hoyer to start the season? As far as the evidence, again, it's there in the game film and unless your glasses are tinted 'orange and Manziel' there is no reason to see anything other than the truth that John did not out-perform what some have termed a lesser QB in Brian Hoyer. What is worrisome is the extent that his play has been defended considering this was suppose to be an unfair fight that a couple of you believed Manziel would run away with.
It wasn't based on simple misleading stats...I explained my view, you came back that Hoyer clearly won "in practice". I have watched these games, in fact I watched the Lions game twice through and studied the offensive pass plays for a third viewing, then watched the Redskins game twice and couldn't stomach going back for thirds. What I have seen in these two games is a 5 year veteran look way out of his league in too many situations. Hoyer and Manziel have suffered from inferior receiver play so far, but they were both put in that situation. They have also both suffered through bad offensive line play from the right side, Manziel suffered through bad play along the whole line with the 2's. What I have seen though is the rookie, whom shouldn't be caught up to the 5 year vet after 3 OTAs, a 3 week training camp and 2 preseason games, play within the system to his current knowledge and HAS outplayed that 5 year veteran. You can take the first team reps and rattle them around in your cup as much as you want. Manziel was superior against second tier defenses, looked like a rookie against first tier defenses, but also made a few plays here and there flashing what he could possibly do once he catches up to the speed of the game. Hoyer looked like a rookie against first tier defenses and he is a 5 year veteran..there aren't excuses for him at this point in his career. Once Manziel gets up to NFL game speed, he will CLEARLY surpass anything Hoyer could do. The fastest way to do that is by playing in NFL games, not playing with the second team offense in practice. Look I have said all along, I would love for Hoyer to come out with complete confidence and give Manziel a year to learn this league. I said immediately following the draft. But MY main concern is winning games and I believe Hoyer's best will lose more games to Manziel's best once Johnny catches up to game speed. You keep mentioning the first 3 games...I don't see the point in who will win/lose more out of the first 3 games of the season. If the argument is "don't throw Johnny to the wolves and hope to win 1 out of 3, then start him week 5" that is total BS. Because he then comes in week 5 playing less than full game speed in practice. He will be further ahead than after preseason game 2, but he wouldn't be any where near as ready as he would playing as a starter for the 3 games leading up to week 5...and he could still possibly win 1 out of those first 3 as he would be much more difficult for defenses to plan against than Hoyer. I don't come into this argument with Manziel/rose colored glasses. I wanted Hoyer to instill faith that he can lead this team and he has failed miserably (even less so than Weeden did at this point last preseason).
That's a pretty bleak picture of Hoyer you paint there. And yet . . . the hot shot, can't miss, most exciting rookie to ever play the game couldn't beat him out. For the record, I have to agree with Charlie Casserly. The QB of the future is not on the Browns roster today.
If you are comfortable with going into those first 3 games with less of a chance at winning, focused on working John into the starter's role regardless of the outcome of those games and convinced he is going to be a quality starter and future franchise quarterback in this league then you do exactly as you suggest and start Manziel from day one. If your intent is to win football games at this point you go with Hoyer for what will be a very difficult three game stretch to start the season because he gives you the best chance to win those games right now. If John outplays him in the final 2 preseason games then perhaps you prepare to put him in during that 3 game stretch if you feel Hoyer no longer gives you a chance to win. Based on what we have seen and what has been reported so far there is nothing to suggest that. Hoyer may never find the rhythm that he found last season and become nobody by week 4, but if he does and John has not been able to take the reigns from him in any form of the competition then what does that say about Manziel?
Ultimately I agree with this and having 2 number ones next season should position the Browns to fill that void. Which begs the question - why did Cleveland draft John Manziel?
