Steelers Draft and Mel Kiper sucks thread!!

They do rotate series but only up until it's a critical situation or an obvious passing situation. Then James is on the field almost exclusively.

Cam's development has nothing to do with Jarvis'. I understand the point that you are making but all of these players develop differently and have different ceilings.

I see Jarvis' as a high end back-up and spot starter. I just don't think he is going to develop into a solid starter or an impact player. Maybe the light gets switched on in year 4 but I have doubts.

 

I never said he was a bust but it's year 3 and I'm not seeing a player that has a look of a long term starter with great potential. I would rather be wrong. I was just giving my opinion on how I would feel about the Steelers selecting a rusher in the first round if that was the best player available on the board.

 

Some of the edge rushers that the Steelers had over the years have taken some wildly varying development paths.

Most recently, Jason Worilds was written off before he became a true asset. If you watched Worilds pro-day tape he looked like a very impressive physical specimen but it took a very long time for it to truly translate to his pro game.

Jones may or may not become the player that people envisioned coming out of college but the Steelers are unique in how they work with players.

I would expect Jones to get every opportunity to become the long term answer at OLB with his option being picked up and a long term contract in play sooner rather than later.

 

Teams take a player in the first round, pay them millions because they should be at least a productive starter within 3 years.
This is the problem with most of the Steelers first round defensive players.

 

Ok, I can understand that but Worilds decided to hang it up so all that time spent working him was kind of wasted. I know that is the exception and not the rule but Jones just does not look like he will be a capable starter to me.

If they pick up his option or sign him to a longer deal they are banking on him becoming much better than he is now.

 

Since Tomlin took over that list would include Cameron Heyward, Ziggy Hood, Lawrence Timmons, Jarvis Jones, Ryan Shazier and Bud Dupree. Cameron Heyward is a monster, Shazier is great when healthy and Dupree looks like he is going to be a stud. Jones and Ziggy Hood are the only 2 that stick out to me so that really isn't bad IMO.

Shazier's health is starting to become a concern though. Some guys can never get past injuries.

 

BS

Agree completely which is why it's ridiculous to read the endless predictions on this board about player after player.

And I see a guy that is already very good against the run and improving as a pass rusher. He already has improved immensely in converting speed to power but as Tomlin said a few weeks ago the guys on the left hand side have been given more opportunities to rush the passer than the OLBs on the right side. Which is clear if you watch the film and why I'm not remotely concerned that Dupree and Moats have more sacks than Harrison and Jones.

Doesn't it strike you as hypocritical to talk about how much better Harrison has been and how he is the guy they use in passing or "critical" situations (as you say) and still he has the same amount of sacks as Jarvis? You did introduce stats as the basis for your disappointment in Jarvis right?

 

The only people I have ever heard this from are Steelers fans.

 

I don't disagree with this but it is projecting quite a bit. Two of his sacks he was completely unblocked, one was a coverage sack. Can't remember the 4th. He has not held up against the run consistently and he's downright awful in coverage right now.

He has made a splash now and then and he's hustling his butt off which has earned him the opportunity to play. But he's incredibly raw right now and hurts the defense as often as he helps it.

If next year he's playing at the same level I will be pretty disappointed. Whereas most of fan base will be really happy simply because he's "starting" and making the occasional splash play.

 

So first round draft picks shouldn't be expected to be productive starters within there fist 3 years ?

 

I've never read that anywhere except the Steelers board. Every player develops at a different rate. Cam Heyward didn't start until the 37th game of his career. You went on and on in here about what a terrible draft pick he was and how we should have taken Derek Sherrod.

Heyward was an outstanding pick but he is on record going into his third year saying he had to learn how to be a pro - he got too heavy and had to work on his stamina going into his third year.

Then you have a guy like Tuitt who stepped in as a 20yr old from Day one ready to work. How did that happen? Yep, the same Cam Heyward who didn't take the off-season seriously led Tuitt so he didn't make the same mistake.

Everything is not as black and white as Steelers fans believe them to be.

 

Of coarse it isn't all black & white! It is Black & Gold.

 

At the time it was my opinion the Steelers should have taken a left tackle.
They got lucky with Beachum.

Why would any team pay millions to a player who won't start till almost the end of his contract ?

 

There are always exceptions to "the rule", but generally, you'd expect a first or second round pick to crack the starting lineup by game 20 of their career. Third round and beyond... that could take a little more time.

 

Teams pay millions for a backup QB.

Draft picks are paid based on potential, not production. Jarvis Jones was not an impressive player in college, but he did produce. Always in the right position but didn't always make the play. Alec Ogletree, by most people's assessment, was the better talent coming out of Georgia. But he had behavior/attitude issues that dropped his stock, and his play in college was less consistent. I think some of you guys have unrealistic expectations of what a draft pick should be. We aren't talking about a top-5 pick that is clearly superior to all other players in his draft class.

Jarvis Jones is already a productive starter for the Steelers. He may never be an impact player, but he is and will continue to be productive.

 

Cause they don't have a crystal ball. Ideally, I think the Steelers would like their rookies to get some time as they learn the defense and start in their second year. But not every guy will develop at the same rate. Tuitt is ahead of the game. Heyward didn't understand how to be a professional early on.

I'll leave you with a quote from Joey Porter. Wexell had an incredible interview with him but it's a pay article so I can't post the whole thing. I don't think he'll mind if I post a couple of paragraphs. The first question was in reference to Harrison early in his career:

Wexell: Was that the year he [Harrison] was looking at his wristband? Keith Butler said guys made fun of him.

JP: "Yeah. I was a wristband guy too. I taught him how to do it, because I went through all the bullcrap my rookie year of not knowing where I was going and they kept me off the field. So my second year in the league I was like, 'Man, if I could just get it, dissect what I've got before the offense comes out, I don't care if it's on a wristband or not. At least I'm going the right way and justifying why I'm out here.' You don't understand playing with Levon Kirkland. If you don't know what you're doing, he don't want you on the field, period. I was worried about Levon getting me. Levon was going to get me before Cowher got me, and you didn't want to piss off Captain Kirk because if Captain Kirk doesn't think you know the defense he's going to vote you off the island and you're not going to play. The standard to answering to Captain Kirk was bigger at the time to me. I had to get the approval of him to be on the field, because I was a second-year guy and they put me in the starting lineup.

Wexell: We in the media didn't know if you had made mistakes. You dominated in the preseason and then the very end of your rookie year, good on teams. We were all wondering why they weren't playing you. So, it was mental errors?

JP: "Aw, man, yeah, I was making so many mistakes. I never admitted it but that's what I was trying to cover up. I hustled so much to just try and still make football plays no matter how many mental mistakes I was making. That's a TOUGH defense to come in as a rookie to pick up. There are a lot of moving parts that go on with it. As I coach it now, I try and coach Bud and Chickillo and these young guys, even Jarvis, a different way to look at it, because you can look at it from a defensive standpoint. It took me until Year Four before I knew where all the parts were at. Year One, I was just trying to make sure I could line my ass up right. Year Two, I was still just trying to make sure I could line me up. Year Three, I kind of figured it out a little bit. But Year Four, that's when I could really play football. I'm not thinking pre-snap. I know the defense. I know where I'm supposed to be. I know where my help, the guy I've got to spill it to. When you see that, that's when the light has clicked on and they'll really play football. Same with Troy. Troy, we knew how good he was because we saw how fast he could run, but he didn't know the defense at first. But when he got it [slaps hands] that's when he turned into the player that he is."

Read the underlined part really well. Breed, you talk about what the Steelers expect out of their rookies. Look what Joey said about his maturation as a football player and this was during the Cowher era.

 

Wasn't Joey a 3rd round draft pick ?

 

Does everyone agree with a 1st round pick should be expected to be a productive starter till there 4th year ?

If this is the case 1st round picks should be paid fir there performance the first 3 years then get there multi million contract. IMO!

 

Of course thats what you would take out of that... *WALL*

You *know it's not easy to get that kind of insight into what the players actually experience learning this defense. You should read it again.

Edit *know

 

I get what Beach is saying but there are other factors that play into when a guy gets to start. When Cam Heyward arrived in Pittsburgh the Steelers had another first round pick Ziggy Hood and The Beard starting in front of him. The Steelers knew they were going to have to replace The Beard. Turned out that Hood never developed into the player they hoped he would be and Keisel lasted longer that they thought he would. I have no doubt that Heyward would have been as effective as Tuitt if the situation would have demanded Heyward play as it did with Tuitt.