Steelers Draft and Mel Kiper sucks thread!!

Finally, it could be argued that the anomolies here are those of flowers' height. How many cb's are elite or true starters considered good and not just started because everyone else sucks? take that number and look at it over the history of the NFL and id wager- purely speculative at this point- that if you are 5'9 or less, the odds are not in your favour to pan out, and almost certainly not to be elite.


but this is all simply for debate purposes it seems, i think we all agree he has great ball skills and could very well be great. time will tell, at this point however i think its fair to state that its ok to be a little cautious or sceptical.

2k

 

Well there goes this discussion. I'm often told an 1" matters quite a bit but seriously, i guess we can agree to disagree.

2k

 

Really? When we discussed Jimmy Smith after he was drafted, on SeeBS, you focused on how rare it was for 6'2 CBs to be successful in the NFL (admittedly I forget the exact reason but I think it was about change of direction). I pointed out that McAlister was 6'1 and your response was that although a slight difference, that inch difference made a big difference.

So to now say 1 inch doesn't matter is.....interesting. Especially when 5'9 CBs succeeding has been pretty rare.

 

No offense but that is just a bunch of baloney. Going into his second year Daryl Smith was an unrestricted free agent and Mosley wasn't on the team and the Ravens gave their 32 year old free agent LB 3.5M guaranteed and then drafted a plug and play rookie LB. And then after that he was inactive most of the year while Zach Orr got a hat all year.

A bad pick is a bad pick and a bad call is a bad call. I hated the Bryant pick last year and I said it. I was wrong and I'm okay with that. What I won't do is run behind the line of we are not privy to all things the Steelers are because that's just a given. By that standard we shouldn't weigh in on anything draft related because we'll never even approach the level of analysis the Steelers are able to do.

But that's not what we do. We use what knowledge we can accumulate, we form opinions and we all express those opinions. When everyone else was giddy by the fact that we got Bryant in the 4th last year I was unmoved. A year later, with that knowledge in mind I have taken a more measured approach to the drafting of Coates. I didn't need someone to remind me but that's just me. Some of these guys need to be reminded that they were horribly wrong about Arthur Brown so take a step back, breathe and let things play out.

And for the record, I was right about Brown. He played in a 4-3 at K State at 225lbs and then came in at an artificial 241lbs at the combine to look scheme diversified. A month later at his pro day he had already shed 5lbs and that was noteworthy to me and I shared it. While everyone else was jumping off bridges because we let him slip to the Ravens I took a more measured approach just like I'm doing now. Golson may or may not become a good CB but to suggest he was a bad pick is incredibly premature. Everyone needs to chill and use history as a guide.

 

Damn, i was wondering where Lorenzo doss got taken- 5th round to denver, that guy could be real good.

2k

 

Huh? You're thinking of someone else. The only problem I had with Jimmy was he came out of the same neighborhood as Agib Talib. It had nothing to do with him being 6'2".

 

Fair enough, i dont think i conveyed what i was trying to say completely properly but there you go- pitfalls on typing. I was merely trying to say that basically, you never hit on every pick, its just best guess, and the best guess at the time to pick him was warranted- im sure someone saw it differently but most didnt- take this draft, i think the ravens' first 5 or so picks were money but im almost sure they dont all make meaningful contributions because it almost never happens, which means some of those guys that I, you guys, draft guru's all liked a lot are going to suck, but that doesnt make them bad picks at the time- we go by what we have and at the time arthur brown was a good choice, a gamble which is what the draft is- BUT i agree in hindsight he is a wasted 2nd round pick because he isnt starting.

No offense taken by the way.

2k

 

No, this was you and I. I remember certain convos very well. It was actually on the Browns board on an All AFCN team thread and we got on that topic due to me saying Jimmy would be on that list the following year (and I was definitely wrong about that). Either way, if you don't remember the convo then we can move on from this.

Still, regardless of anything I think it's understandable to have doubts about undersized players. Isn't that what you're pointing out about Arthur Brown right now (although weight wise and not height)?

EDIT: Thinking about it, it may have been Mano. I'm 100% certain it was one of you but I can't say for certain as I recall arguing with you both over Jimmy......for years

 

People liked Arthur Brown because we was seen as another Lawrence Timmons (or Lavante David). I was a MASSIVE fan of David when he came out, and to date he's enjoyed a very productive career on a horrible team. Is that the player, or is it the fact that he's playing outside in a Tampa-2 rather than inside in a 3-4?

I never put much stock at all into a player's weight. I was aware of why Brown gained weight for the draft process, but I didn't care. He was still extremely productive at Kansas State and highly athletic. Weren't we all talking about how James Farrior played at around 220 or something at the time? I didn't think as highly of Brown as I did of David, but I was still among those who decried the Steelers for passing on Brown for Bell.

 

Congrats to Chicago for hosting the draft!

2 take aways - One good - one not to good..

Good: Everytime Goodell took the stage the Chicago fans boo'd him.. great stuff

Not so good: the Coverage - too many commercials. too much of certain players and teams... and got to say the Bullsheet meter was off the charts in some cases.... Even Mayock didn't have his best year... I probably watched more Pirate Baseball than the draft coverage this year

enjoy,

bb

 

We had much the same conversation about Shamarko Thomas being only 5'9". Troy Polamalu is 5'10" and his height is no problem, but Shamarko is a shrimp even though he has a 42" vertical?

There was one play, I think last season, that illustrates this argument. Shamarko Thomas was covering a tall receiver, I forget who but a 6'1"+ receiver. Thomas had perfect coverage, was right on the guy's hip, and a perfectly thrown pass went just millimeters past his outstretched arm. Literally less than half an inch.

So Thomas played as well as he could have, but if his arms were 3/4" longer he would have broken up that pass. Height is no guarantee of arm length, but Thomas has 31.5" arms - the same as most 5'11" to 6'1" CBs. Golson has 29.75" arms, among the shortest you will ever see.

Bottom line, as 2k has stated, is that you can have a highly productive player regardless of height. However, all things being equal the taller player has a little more upside due to the simple fact he can reach more balls than the player 4" shorter than him.

I'm on record as saying I over-reacted to the Golson pick, and that if he plays as well as William Gay I will be satisfied with the pick. Yes, I prefer a CB who is Ike Taylor's size but his overall play will make a difference. We've said that if Ike Taylor could catch he would potentially be a Hall of Famer. On the flip side, if Ike didn't run a 4.3 he would have been cut years ago. Golson has the physical skills to compete in the NFL, and the fact he can play the ball is a big bonus.

 

This from an article on Steelers.com compiling Combine commentary on the draft picks:

 

Not a chance. I'm not a height guy, it's never bothered me at any position. You're thinking of someone else. The conversations I had about Jimmy were about where he grew up and if he could stay out of trouble - I bet RavenRoc will remember that conversation. I also argued with 2k when he called him a Top 10 talent - not as much as Mano argued with him though. No way did I ever knock 6'2" for a CB. It's ludicrous to think a guy at 6'2" can't play CB. You're thinking of someone else.

As for Brown, it was the combination of his playing weight, the artificial inflation of it at the combine, small college and college position (4-3 WLB) that made me nervous. And I didn't rule him out as a 3-4 ILB because I think that would be just as foolish and I even gave examples of guys that made the transition successfully. But I did question if he could make the jump and I was certain he would struggle to keep weight on - which would be vital to his ability to play there. I used Vilma as a guy that was extremely good in the 4-3 but couldn't play in the 3-4.

The difference between Golson and Brown IMO is Golson already answered all the questions in college. He played against tall WRs, in the best conference in football and he excelled. And he's authentic. What you see is what you get. No funny business when it comes to height and weight.

 

That's fair but I couldn't disagree more. It's their collective job to evaluate players who can play and contribute at the next level. I can see making exceptions for guys who get injured because that's obviously something out of your control but when you draft a guy in the 2nd round and he can't even get a hat his 2nd season you failed. And all teams have their failures.

A bad pick is a bad pick.

 

I heard an interview with Colbert on the radio today. He said they were targeting a CB in the second round. They thought about trading up to get Golson. BPA is a bunch of BS they say at draft time.

 

I remember the convo, I'm sure I was in it bc I was big on him and Torrey pre-draft and am sure I blindly defended him all over *THIS*. I posted a lot of highlight clips on him around that time.

I don't remember height being an issue or not, but I can't picture beach putting up a fight over a "too tall" CB at 6'2 tho

 

Watched tape on Jesse James, Branchflower may beat him out. I will stand on this until proven wrong: Kenny Bell >>>>> Jesse James.

If F'amgelo Williams gets hurt between now and the end of September, Pittsburgh is effed.

Biggest surprises in undrafteds: Anthomy Harris & Kurtis Drummand, even nfl.com had 3-5 round grades on them. With a weak safety class this is puzzling. Teams drafted marginal TE talent up to 2 full rounds above their grade.

 

How's this little fella going to help out in run support ?

 

He won't although he'll tackle. I see him playing centerfield at FS and backing up Corners myself. Less tackles and can roam the field and get turnovers......I don't remember Mike Wagner making many tackles in the Steelers Steel Curtain days compared to all the other players. He played like a centerfielder mostly and was good.......But the Steelers are probably determined to put him at Corner.......

 

Golson will definitely be a CB and I've seen worse tacklers.....he doesn't miss too many. There's a difference between short and little.