Steelers Draft and Mel Kiper sucks thread!!

The 49ers don't seem to have much trouble.

Is this a case of "copy the leader?" The Seahawks won the Superbowl, but last year the 49ers made it and played against the Ravens, who operate out of the 3-4 sometimes. These things ebb and flow. Difficulty in drafting for the 3-4 becomes irrelevant when you consider the amount of teams also drafting for the 4-3. Now instead of competing with other teams for 3-4 OLBs, we're competing with even more teams for 4-3 DEs, which are a huge premium for those teams, and we're also trying to find DTs who can do everything except cover. Regardless of scheme, players have to do a lot of things.

The 3-4 is emerging in college, too. 16 teams use it as their base defense, including Alabama, Louisville, Oregon, Georgia, Notre Dame, and UCLA. That number should continue to increase as college teams try to prepare their players well for NFL careers.

We can count on a number of reasons why our defense wasn't as good as usual last season, none of which directly had to do with scheme. Inexperience caused by injuries, the relapse of Ike Taylor, losing one of the best 3-4 OLBs to ever play, etc. Vince Williams didn't light the world on fire, but there is no reason whatsoever to believe he would've done better in a 4-3 defense. Lawrence Timmons has worked hard to become one of the NFL's best 3-4 ILBs. Cam Heyward is a prototypical 3-4 DE. Jarvis Jones, our first-round pick one year ago, is thoroughly a 3-4 OLB, having emerged from that scheme in Georgia. His pass-rushing and run-funneling talents would be largely wasted in a 4-3 scheme where he'd mostly be asked to play in space.

Not to mention, our entire defensive coaching staff is filled with 3-4 personnel. And don't talk about Tomlin's roots. He'll never be coaching the defense himself.

The idea of a 4-3 defense in Pittsburgh is asinine. The only reason I'd see someone think it a good idea is if they're either biased toward the 4-3 in general or envious of the Seahawks. More accurately, look at the Cowboys. 32nd, dead last, absolute worst defense in the NFL in 2013, their grand debut season with the 4-3 Cover 2, coached by none other than the great, highly respected Monte Kiffin, an influential figure in the pioneering of the modern Cover 2.

The 3-4 will stay in Pittsburgh, and that's something that will be a boon. It's not a coincidence that every other Super Bowl winner since 2008 ran a 3-4.

 

The 4-3 was great in the 70's, but that was then with 4 HOF players and at least 2 more that belong

 

Not really draft related but I did have a couple drinks with EJ Gaines and Henry Josey last night. Cool guys, like to see one or both here.

 

Sweet!

 

Speaking of Mizzou football, sounds like Green-Beckham is getting kicked off the team. Guess that what happens when you get hyped up on cocaine and start kicking doors down (in the same apartment complex as mine no less)

 

A little random, but I decided I don't like either Jalen Saunders or Robert Herron. Two tiny receivers who aren't lightning-fast, and neither has had great success on special teams. Antonio Brown is both quicker and faster, and Lance Moore is the same height and more experienced. Other teams could consider them as gadget players and screen receivers, maybe slot receivers if they show good enough route-running ability, but they'd be pointless for us.

 

I think both have the skill set to be a very effective undersized slot receiver, however that's not what this team needs. Give me a bigger outside target.

 

The 49ers have drafted well and that is why they have remained a top defense. The also have a dearth of talent drafted in the upper half of the first round. When you look at the teams who run 3-4 defenses you will find them at the top or bottom of defensive rankings. Teams at the top have remained healthy on defenses, while teams at the bottom have suffered key injuries, usually one of their top OLBs (example Green Bay and Clay Mathews). Nothing was more evident than the collapse of KC who was 9-0 but finished 11-5 after suffering injuries to first Hali then Houston. They went from a top 3 defense to 24th.

If you followed Michael Sam in the draft, he was rated as just a pass rusher, not good enough in coverage, not good enough vs the run. Even though he was the co-MVP in the SEC he was rated as a late 3rd to 5th round pick. It's easier to draft for the 4-3.

Incorrect, this is a huge assumption on your part. The far more probable reason is what Mano said. "The 3-4 is confusing for average and weak QBs, which is what you have with most college QBs.

Your making my point for me, when you lose your top OLB you don't have anyone to step in for them. Heyward's two gap skills would be perfect in Seattle's scheme, Jones would be a pass rusher not a LB.

I would like to think on the professional level, the coaches could adapt, its not like they don't know the 4-3 defense they face it two out of 3 games.

Dallas was bringing guys in off the street to play on defense, they were that injury ridden. The Eagles went from a 4-3 to a 3-4 and were the 29th place defense. They faced GB against their 3rd string QB who was benched. They also faced Detroit in a snowstorm. They were pretty close to Dallas as far as bad defense. Do you think Dallas might have been bad on defense because of their cap penalty, bad free agent re-signings and poor drafting for depth. Or do you think Jerry Jones is a great GM and Kiffin's 4-3 defense was the problem.

What? This is completely wrong.
2014 Seahawks 4-3
2013 Ravens 3-4
2012 Giants 4-3
2011 Packers 3-4
2010 Saints 4-3
2009 Steelers 3-4
That is 3 each, the 2 years before this were by 4-3 teams. Maybe we should check how the defenses performed. Which teams held their opponents under 20 points?
The last 3-4 winner to hold their opponent under 20 points was the 2006 Steelers. In that span there were (5) 4-3 teams that held the losing team to less than 20 points. I have always been a Steelers fan but it has become painfully obvious that when they lose an OLB the defense is severely hurt and there is often not a suitable backup to step in because they are becoming more difficult to draft 3-4 OLBs.

 

Baramay, you listed exactly what Demolisher stated - since 2008, every other SB winner played the 3-4...

This seems like an unfair statement simply because you have to compare what offenses are faced against those defenses, the health of each defense, the turnover battle in each game, special teams performance, and a host of other things that go into whether a defense holds its opponent to 20 points.

It has been commented on for several years now that because more teams are switching to the 3-4, it becomes harder to find your OLBs in the draft due to the relative lack of body types and skill sets that fill the position. I thought this was accepted fact in general, which supports Baramay's argument that it is easier to draft for the 4-3.

I don't have a dog in the hunt here, just chiming in with a couple of observations.

 

I think we need to look at Jerrick McKinnon, Played at a small school, Georgia Southern, but when they played the SEC he stood out.

 

Interesting. I looked it up. 6 of the NFL's top ten defenses in 2013 operated out of the 3-4, compared to 4 of the bottom ten. 15 NFL teams ran the 3-4 last season, so that leaves five 3-4 defenses in the middle. That doesn't seem like "top or bottom" of defensive rankings any more than 4-3 defenses. Four 4-3 defenses placed in the top ten, six in the bottom ten, and seven in the middle. FYI, the best three defenses in the middle ground area were all 3-4 defenses (Jets, Ravens, Steelers).

You're damn right the Chiefs lost traction when Hali and Houston both missed time by some horrible stroke of luck. Any team who loses multiple stars like that will suffer. That has nothing to do with defensive scheme - only team depth and injury resistance.

http://www.bigblueview.com/2014/2/2...rd-olb-auburn-scouting-report-new-york-giants

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2014/03/nfl_draft_2014_patriots_prospe_1.html

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/...-draft-profile-marcus-smith-louisville-de-olb

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1759310/jeremiah-attaochu

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/demarcus-lawrence?id=2543490

These are just a few legitimate 3-4 OLB candidates this year, which is not an aberration. Most of them would struggle to make any impact at all in an NFL 4-3.

You will consistently read "he struggles in coverage" every year in these reports, but most of the time it's that pundit trying to find something negative to say in order to stay balanced. The Steelers' zone-blitz sends its linebackers into coverage much more often than other 3-4 schemes, such as the ones in New York, Houston, and New Orleans where the OLBs don't need to do much besides pin their ears back and hold the edge in the run. In other words, "he struggles in coverage" is never a deal breaker unless he's absolutely lost playing in space ala Michael Sam. Most 3-4 defenses don't even care that much to strongly consider it.

Besides, elaborate 4-3 defenses aren't shy about dropping their ends back into coverage on occasion anyway. If you consider that, you'll see that most 3-4 defenses treat their OLBs as an extension of that. However, no defense anywhere will place a 3-4 OLB or a 4-3 DE on a slot receiver unless the defender is a ridiculously special talent.

In 2014, the Falcons and Titans will switch to 3-4, minus the Raiders, bringing the total of 3-4 teams to 16. First, that's still half the NFL running a 4-3, so again, we compete with other 4-3 teams for virtually the same number of defensive prospects as we do with other 3-4 teams (with Michael Sam, of course). Second, if the 4-3 really is so great and beneficial for a team's draft board, why is the number of 3-4 defenses in the NFL increasing while the number of 4-3 defenses are decreasing, even in light of the fact that the Seahawks won the Super Bowl?

The first part is fixed. Let's stop talking like our depth players would magically become awesome which a scheme change. Heyward is scheme versatile, but changing schemes would be cutting down his efforts to master Dick LeBeau's zone blitz to shove him into a brand new scheme. And Jones? He's 245 pounds at 6'2". If he's "just a pass rusher," that's a major waste of a first-round pick.

Sure, but to know it well enough to teach NFL players is another matter entirely.

The Cowboys were bad because of the players, not the scheme, which is the point I've been trying to make all along. I just talked about the Cowboys because you seem to me like you're advocating a switch to a 4-3 will make any defense awesome and incredible, and that is far from the case.

Besides, I see your Eagles and raise you my Saints. 32nd to 4th in one season, switched from 4-3 to 3-4.

You completely misunderstood me for most of this part, but if the bolded part is your whole thesis, it can be fixed just by acquiring a deeper rotation at the position. Uprooting the whole system in hopes that "the 4-3 is easier to draft for" is simply ludicrous.

 

I think the disconnect we are having is understanding Seattle's defense. Although it is classified as a 4-3 its very similar to what Baltimore runs. As you said demo, Baltimore is 3-4 (sometimes). Seattle uses two linemen to play two gap, a DE and DT, much like a 3-4 team. Their LBs are a bit different because they flow to the ball more with their speed. Teams are in nickel or dime 60% in today's pass happy NFL. 3-4 outside linebackers are on the field for most snaps, whereas other teams can rotate their pass rushers, over time I believe this takes its toll on the team, player and defense.

 

I would definitely consider a flier on him late, the guy is real elusive runner which is what they need.

 

For the few of you still following along, in the Unofficial Collaboratve Draft, round 3.

97. Pittsburgh- DaQuan Jones, DT, Penn State.

Desir was off the board and I think Jones offers more value than Smallwood. I also like the 2 safeties Buchanon and Brooks, but they were long gone.

 

So you are talking about the Seahawks' style of defense. I still disagree - we have 3-4 personnel and a change of scheme seems impractical - but I just wanted mutual understanding. Sorry if I seemed harsh.

NY, awesome pick. Jones is seriously one of my favorite players, regardless of position, in this whole draft.

 

Thumbs up from me too. The Steelers can't have too many options on the DL at this point. They need to find the second comings of Hampton, Keisel, and Smith to really let this defense excel.

 

I am sure you would not have taken someone over Smallwood unless you like the player a lot, but to be devil's advocate. Maybe the sting of Ziggy Hood not working out, is still fresh. Isn't Jones more of a 1-tech? Would the Steelers be better off with Shamar Stephens who has more length? (You would know better that I, NY) What about Brent Urban, DeAndre Coleman, Taylor Hart or Will Clarke later in the draft who have 3-4 DE experience? Where there any quality CBs Gaines, Gaines, Aikens or Cockrell available? Is Smallwood better than the drop off to the next guy? I hope you don't mind my asking.

 

I liked Phillip Gaines, he was gone. I considered Brashaud Breeland but went with a player rated end of 3rd who has a spot open on the roster with
Kiesel unsigned. I think he can play the 0 for Coach Mitchell and I know he's been on their radar. With Bryce McCain, Ike, Gay, Allen & Dennard I figured I could wait a few more rounds to double dip. Stephens has the length but he played the 1 and although he has an upside he's up. & down. Urban didn't impress me late in the season and into the senior bowl / Combine. Coleman is injured but like Stephens he's an enigma . I like Clarke but he's a little light for the 5 but a little big for an OLB, similar to Kony Ealy.

 

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...14-nfl-draft-steelers-prospects-meetings-list

Updating the list of players with whom the Steelers have had multiple contacts. We know that the Steelers often draft players they have brought in for visits. Also interesting is how many contacts they make.

CB Darqueze Dennard - Pro Day, visit
CB Justin Gilbert - Combine and Pro Day
CB Ross Cockerill - Shrine, Pro Day

S Calvin Pryor - Combine, visit


WR Kelvin Benjamin - Combine, Pro Day
WR Mike Evans - Combine, Pro Day
WR Donte Moncrief - Combine, visit
WR Allen Robinson - combine, Pro Day

TE Eric Ebron - Combine, Pro Day

DE Kareem Martin - Combine, Pro Day
NT Louis Nix III - Combine, Pro Day
DE Stephon Tuitt - Combine, Pro Day, visit
DE/NT Daquan Jones - combine, Pro Day
DE Ra'shede Hageman - Senior Bowl, combine
DE Scott Crichton - combine, visit

LB Jordan Zumwalt - combine, visit

 

See the Collaborative Draft and why they made sense. BPA, interest, need.