so you think you know baseball............

don newcombe is right.

didn't face the pitchers rose did huh? i guess you never heard of walter johnson, christy mathewson, eddie plank, and a ton of other people i could find. cobb said that walter johnson's fastball hissed at you as it passed you by. and he changed his stance and encrouched in the batter's box to squeeze him. so sorry igloo but ROSE NEVER face guys like Cobb did. Lifetime average - Cobb. Batted over .400-Cobb. 90 batting records-Cobb. Sorry, but Pete Rose hung onto to break that record and everyone knows it. Cobb is the man! Go blow.

Ad Gretzky--yeah behind him, Mario was great. On the ice, Gretzky isn't going to say "I'm magician" bc he was! He had to say to to the only other person in the league who was in the same debate as he was.

How the hell is Mario the best offense talent? Does he have 92 goals in a season? Or 200 points? Or 163 assists or 50 goals in 39 games? Or more assists than anyone including Mario has POINTS? More MVPs? More Art Ross Trophies? More Stanley Cups? NO, NO, NO. Mario was a great player-no doubt. He is #2 of the all-time greats, but the fact that you guys still think he is better than gretzky or offensively better is baffling. Even when Pittsburgh stole every free agent in 91-92 and winning Cups - Mario still didn't have Gretzky numbers, so how is he offensively better? bc he scored 5 goals in every way possible? big whoop.

And you don't give any credit to gretzky for staying healthy that whole time. Mario's back when bad from carrying that shithole Pittsburgh on his back since 1984! Then he had Hodgkins. Gretzky played and never was seriously hurt. That's a credit to him too. Near the end, Mario was a '77 Pinto and Gretzky was a Mustang.

You guys are making me angry. I need my blood pressure medicine!

 

name the only man to win the world series mvp on a losing team?

 

and igloo to me cobb, like ted williams or like a tony gwynn could hit in any decade bc they could flat out hit and see and read pitchers. if cobb could hit against johnson and mathewson, what would he do against the slop today like a 4th or 5th pitcher in the rotation like the phils kyle kendrick or fat ass bartalo colon? come on man! you really think today's pitching is so great? then why are the eras in the 4's and 5's?

 

And Rose didn't have to play 6 games in three days, as players of Cobb's day often did. Rose didn't have to take prolonged rickety train rides (like from New York to St. Louis) as players in Cobb's day did. Cobb also didn't have the benefit of the advanced medicine/nutrition/strength-training regimen Rose enjoyed.

A lot comes out in the wash.




The bottom line is "Who has the most hits, not who played in the most games"
Bottom line to me is batting average. Number of hits relies a lot on longevity, games played, plate appearances...both Rose and Cobb played 24 years, but with a 162-game schedule (as opposed to Cobb's 154, and sometimes fewer), Rose played in 500 more games.

Put it this way: if Cobb went hitless in his next 2000 at bats, he'd STILL have a higher average than Rose.

 

Teddy Ballgame was the greatest pure hitter who ever lived. Doesn't have the most hit, most HRs, highest average...but when you put it all together, he's tops.

 

cat, u don't think any of those numbers have anything to do with the team?

i'll tell u what - if i am trailing by a goal with a minute left in the game, and i have a choice of who i want to go one on two defenders to try to tie the score, i'll take mario eleven times out of ten.

 

axe-williams also missed 6 yrs due to 2 wars and almost died in a plane crash that was on fire on a aircraft carrier.

and thanks for the support on cobb vs rose. and rose had greenie's too. haha.

 

i knew this was coming. ok lulz, ill play along. in 1979 when he was called up gretzky tied for the art ross with i think marcel dionne. he shoud've won the hart but didn't due to his whl status. he didn't have messier, kurri, coffey, anderson or lowe then. he played with a bunch of stiffs. so what team did he have then? it was him and him alone! i think he made the careers of glenn anderson and a lot of those other lesser players like Dr. Randy Gregg, Craig Mactavish and some others - NOT the other way around. Sure he had Messier and Kurri, but they weren't always on the same line together. Mario had tons of help too. Stevens, Recchi, Trottier and even Rich Tocchet, Rob Brown and some kid named JAROMIR JAGR!

And you "less than a minute left scenario" is built for Mario's strength! Real tough call there. Not everyone can take on 2 guys like Mario could with his bigger frame, skillset and size. Gretzky wasn't built like that. So yes Mario is your man, but to say his team got him all those stats is pretty silly. Ok then Stevens, Recchi, Jagr and Trottier got Mario his 2 rings and Jagr got Mario every stat he had after 1993. To not give any credit to the man himself is a joke! All Mario fans, much like Crosby now see Mario and Crosby as the best ever and no one else. Do you really think this is a close debate over who is the best? I'm not even a Gretzky fan but it's obvious to me who was better - not stronger - not 1 vs 2...?

Give me an Iron City bc I need one!

 

i could tear apart everything u said there. but i told u i wouldn't get in a big emotional argument about this with u, and i meant it.

i believe mario lemieux was a better offensive talent than wayne gretzky.

 

but i WILL pick one comment to specifically address:

to claim that's what i did is a joke.

 

lulz--you and igloo never give any credit to gretzky whereas i said mario was a great player and #2 all-time. copy and paste where you praise gretzky?

 

Ted Williams fought in World War II for about 3 years. Otherwise he may have beaten both of them. But back to the question. Who has the most hits = Rose......Who is a better hitter = Cobb. What question are we asking here? I thought it was who has the most hits? the answer is Rose, I'm sorry!

And Axe, you come up with all this stuff about what the old timers had to do, but in todays game they have a pitcher for every batter in the later innings. They don't get to face the same pitcher for 9 innings! There are more faster pitchers today than when Cobb played also. Johnson and Mathewson were the class of the league back then, so that's 2! How many can throw over 95 MPH today. I couldn't tell ya because theres too manY! And this is why you can't compare era's. I'm not saying Rose was a better hitter. The question was who has the most hits!

 

wayne gretzky was an AWESOME offensive talent.

mario lemieux, in my opinion, was even better.

happy yet?

how bout u copy and paste where i said all the credit goes to his teammates. oh wait, u can't do that, because i never said anything of the sort.

to characterize my remarks as giving no credit to the guy is such an absurd thing to do, it defies explanation, other than you're so emotional about this u can't see straight.

 

Thats a false statement Fish. About Gretzky not winning the Art Ross because he was in the WHA. He did tie Dionne in points for the Art Ross, but then you go to the 1st tie breaker which was? Do U know? It is who has the most goals scored and Dionne had 1 more goal scored than Gretzky. That is the EXACT reason Dionne won the Art Ross over Gretzky. The just went by the rule book which is still in effect today.....And Lemieux's first 6 or 7 years was playing with no talent. They had to get the talent in trades and try to mesh the best players to do it with.....Stop making stuff up you know nothing about! haha......I don't want to argue over this anymore. I always said Gretzky was the best because he has the stats. And also said some of those records could have been broken if not for all of Lemieux's difficulties....

The Rose and Cobb thing is whole different ball game.......

 

Btw, Gretzky was never given the Calder Trophy because he played in the WHA and was considered a pro because of it.......And some people think Orr or Howe were the best......so who cares......WOW! Thats the 1st time I ever heard anybody outside of Pittsburgh say Lemieux was a better offensive talent than Gretzky! And everybody in Boston will say Orr is the best ever....But how can you compare a defensemen against centers? They also have stay back and play defense which hinders their stats against centers. So you can't do it, imo....

 

Actually almost FIVE years - three in WWII, and two more in Korea.

Sorry, I wasn't sure what the "question" was. Most hits is for sure Rose, there's no arguing that. I thought it was "better hitter." I jumped in the middle a bit here...

Which is why I said things generally come out in the wash. Cobb et al didn't have to travel to the coast, but today's players didn't have uncomfortable train rides...old-timers didn't play against blacks, but today's players didn't play back-to-back-to-back double-headers...etc., etc., etc...

It's all relevant -- today's hitters are used to more speed. But old-timers didn't get to feast on the watered-down dreck that today's hitters do.

Mathewson wasn't a speed-baller, per se. His pitch was what was called a "fadeaway" (today's screwball). You have to remember the ball itself wasn't made to jump off the bat, so "speed" wasn't a premium.

 

Meant "all relative".

 

Bobby Richardson.......That would be against the World Champion Pirates in 1960. Hmmm, didn't know that. Good question, Fish!

 

Begs the NFL equivalent: name the only Super Bowl MVP to come from the losing team.

 

I know this one without googling..........Chuck Howley of the Cowboys........haha