Ravens vs Bengals, Week 17 Gameday Thread

It is just as well that this team didn't go. If they had have, Dean Pees may have decided to stay and we would have had to suffer another season of shitty defensive performances.... It is time to clean house, too many good coaches are out there now. Jack Del Rio just got let go, John Fox will be gone in Chicago, Chuck Pagano is out at Indy etc. It is time for college John to go back to college with his brother Jim. Take Marty with you and his lame ass offense. We are stuck with Joe for one more season but they damn well better draft a QB to take over after this coming season and that QB needs to be able to read defenses better and has the IQ to run an offense without the kid gloves on all the damn time.

 

There was no mystique, john and tomlin are similar. Bullshit merchants with no real tactical mastery. They are bonafide cheerleaders for the mythical guy upstairs and all hot air and grand sweeping statements.

Both our fan bases see the pats as a rival and have our respective thoughts BUT you cant deny that bill is a god damn football genius. He just gets the game more so than almost anyone in the league. The problem is, faith doesnt take you anywhere when you need to be techincally sound or game plan against a team.

John is and always will be overated, carried by a very star studded team and natural born leader in Ray lewis.

Almost every decision he has made has been poor...seriously, almost every single hire that was up to him, has been shit.

As for being glad the ravens are out, i wouldnt be if i was PIT, the only team that should be are the pats because we traditionally do quite well against them in the post season whereas PIT has a terrible record against NE but a great one against the ravens.

No clue if i want a QB at 16 this year, i hate picking there, the best you can hope for is like a non-sexy position but high value like Mosely, or a a guard or something. The top tier talents are gone and its hard to trade the pick because people in that 12-20 range are very difficult to place, there are so many question marks.

I say again, worst possible result for any team is to JUST miss the play offs, i rather be 0-16. No joke. At least we get the top pick then, the NFL rewards utter failure but not mediocre disasters.

2k

 

I said it mid game, but is there any more fitting and symbolic game of pees's Ravens coaching career than this one?

 

Trust me. No you wouldn't.

 

Fair enough, id take 1-15 rather than just missing the play offs if its not part of a consistent streak.

 

I was pulling for Kizer and the Browns yesterday. Maybe someday they will get back to being good

 

They won't, so long as:
1) The team resides in Cleveland.
2) Their colors remain Orange/White/Brown
3) They are allowed to make their own draft picks each Spring

It isn't just the players, coaching, and organizational strategy, it includes factors beyond anyone's control.

 

Tyrod is "different" than Joe. Not better. Joe's been disappoint as of late but Tyrod will never achieve anything like Joe already has. Also, Pees made it official today and announced his retirement from the NFL. But I wouldn't want Pagano as HC here after the 4 years a garbage that he had with Andrew Luck. Just install him as DC again where he was at his best (in Bmore) and bc here was so bad in Indy no one will pilfer him for HC for the foreseeable future. Same for Kubiak who wants nothing to do with a HC position. Sign him up for as long as his health holds out.

Also for what it costs in the long haul, I don't ever want to see a 0-16 or 1-15 Ravens team EVER. Fuck the #1 or #2 overall. For as long as there is Ozzie and DeCosta there will always be a better chance than not at a better picj at #16 than in the top 2. If we were in the top 5 I'd say Saquon Barkley all the way. At 16 however, I'd think that a top guard prospect matched up with Collins' feet and Kubiak's spread offense will have a 1200 rusher on the books. If he can do it with Forsett, think what Collins can do.

Honestly, I'm frustrated with Jimmy Smith. For all the shit we talk about Campanaro's injuries Smith's are even worse considering his talent level. "Ability" is part of "Availability" for a reason. If Jimmy was playing vs Cincy, that game would've been won. But the sad fact is that he's played 2 full season out of 7. In that time how many playoffs did we miss? What was our record during his 2 full seasons? 8-8 and 5-11. It won't matter bc his contract will keep him here until 2019, but he can be replaced talent wise.

I'm getting frustrated with Joe too. Another player not playing to his contract and not nearly half the competitor it seems since signing the big contract. My frustration with Joe is his leadership. I don;t see it. he should be calling more audibles and be more in command in this point of his career than he's demonstrated. He's a damn $25M robot.

 

That would be me. And this is a Ravens thing, not just a Flacco thing. They've always had this problem since at least Boller. The OCs never seem to address this. The WRs coaches don't fix this, the WRs never seem ti get it (unless they names were Mason, Boldin or Smith Sr. and even then...). And most importantly the QB should be ripping into his receivers for not breaking either at or over the 1st down marker. It's been a long-standing affliction for the Ravens.

 

First, the chance of Kubiak leaving Denver isn't very high. Elway has mentioned giving him a broader range of input in the FO position. if Kubiak does decide to get back on the field, then there will be a lot of competition for him. The biggest would come from Atlanta where their offense sputtered after letting Kubiak clone Kyle Shanahan leave for S.F.

Second, I still believe the Ravens need a #1 RB. I love Collins, but once the NFL caught on to him, his production went down. He'd be great as the off back, or the 2nd back in a two or three headed rushing attack. The chances of getting Barkley at #16 are slim and none, but Barkley 2.0 and 2.1, aka as Bryce Love and Nick Chubb could be available. Both are rated as 1st rd picks, but later 1st rd only because they are RB's.

Third - The Ravens need play makers on offense. WR's, and RB's should be their top priority. At #16, there should be at least 1 of Love, Chubb, or St. Brown, WR from Notre Dame, should be available. Sutton could be also, but I expect a run at the top WR's like there was last year. I'm good with the TE's, even if Watson leaves. Williams and Boyle make a good pair, and Mayle looks like he could be a good receiving TE.

Fourth - I'm not worried at all about the OL. The injuries to Yanda, Siragusa and Lewis, and the retirement of Urschel was possibly one the best things that could've happened. Not at the time, but it showed the Ravens do have some quality OL. Skura was most impressive. Jensen needs to curb his enthusiasm just a bit, which he did in the 2nd half, but otherwise played well. Even Hurst looked better at G rather than OT. With the 3 injured players returning, the OL shouldn't be a big issue going into 2018.

Fourth - QB. The Ravens signed Woodrum to a futures contract, so they must like him, possibly as the backup next year (I'm counting on Mallet being gone next year). But, unless they believe that Woodrum could one day be a starter, they need to draft a QB in the 2018 draft who can hold a clipboard for a few years, like Aaron Rogers did. If only the ravens had a good QB, OC, and QB coach for him to learn from. They can get a potential starter in the 2nd or 3rd round because of the plethora of top QB's in the draft.

Will agree that Pagano probably won't be offered a HC job. But he might also want to take a year off. I believe he still has 2-3 years left on his contract from the Colts. After his tumultuous ride with them, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to do so. There are other DC candidates that could be available if they don't get HC jobs. Fangio, Austin come to mind. Harbs also likes to promote from within, so Martindale, a former DC in Denver, could just get promoted. He's done a great job with the LB's. If that happens, I'd love to see Menechino come back as LB's coach. The only issue with the Martindale scenario would be if he just took over Pees' playbook.

I'd like to see more playing time for Bowser. Williams still scares me. In the limited time he played, he was exactly what I said when they drafted him. An Elvis Dumervill clone. He is horrible against the run, can't defend the pass, can't set the edge, so if he doesn't get to the QB, he's a waste. Smith and Judon need to be extended.

I was also thinking of a possibility for Correa. They drafted him because of his pass rushing and run stopping. It's clearly to see that he'll never make it as a LB. Put him on a weight program so he gains 35+ lbs (he's about 255 now) and teach him to play DE. I like Urban, but don't see him staying healthy for a whole year. If Kafusi couldn't get any playing time this year, then he isn't an answer either. The jury is still out on Wormley.

 

Over the last 3 seasons, in which Luck played only 22 of 48 games Pagano is 20-28, two games worse than Harbaugh (22-26).

 

So why would we want a coach with a worse record with a supposedly better QB over one under fire right now?

 

I took your issue of calling Pagano's "4 years with Luck" as garbage. I'm not even sure which 4 years (out of 6) you're speaking about considering Luck missed all of one season and most of another. If you were to dial it down to the time he and Luck were both on the field he was well over .500 and won 3 playoff games. But he wasn't fired over those seasons. My guess is he was fired based on the last 3 seasons in which he has gone 20-28 and Luck only played in 22 of those 48 games.

Whether or not he is still a viable coaching candidate will be interesting. With so many job openings I expect he'l get some interviews.

 

I see that now. There was a blurb at some point earlier this season that Kubiak was entertaining stepping back from his Denver job and would entertain offers elsewhere. Might not be much to that story in hindsight especially if Elway is giving him more lattitude.

I'm not big on too many RBs in the first and Barkley is one who I think will be the next Bell, Elliott, Gurley or Fournette. I'm sure Barkley is in the top 5 off the board though. Not sure about the other two RBs in light of the fact that we do need to draft a good rookie WR or two. I've seen Sutton mocked to the Ravens already in mid rounds. Not sure what his stock will look like after the draft, but there are others that cold rise like Arden Tate (6-5/225). And let's not forget that there is always some 4th rounder (give or take) like Stephon Diggs out there to unearth. Still that will be predicated on what they do at RB where it seems we are developing a backlog of decent rushers who can be traded while their stock is high - Collins, West, Allen, or Dixon.


Fourth - I'm not worried at all about the OL. The injuries to Yanda, Siragusa and Lewis, and the retirement of Urschel was possibly one the best things that could've happened. Not at the time, but it showed the Ravens do have some quality OL. Skura was most impressive. Jensen needs to curb his enthusiasm just a bit, which he did in the 2nd half, but otherwise played well. Even Hurst looked better at G rather than OT. With the 3 injured players returning, the OL shouldn't be a big issue going into 2018. [/QUOTE]

Fourth - QB. The Ravens signed Woodrum to a futures contract, so they must like him, possibly as the backup next year (I'm counting on Mallet being gone next year). But, unless they believe that Woodrum could one day be a starter, they need to draft a QB in the 2018 draft who can hold a clipboard for a few years, like Aaron Rogers did. If only the ravens had a good QB, OC, and QB coach for him to learn from. They can get a potential starter in the 2nd or 3rd round because of the plethora of top QB's in the draft. [/QUOTE]

Will agree that Pagano probably won't be offered a HC job. But he might also want to take a year off. I believe he still has 2-3 years left on his contract from the Colts. After his tumultuous ride with them, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to do so. There are other DC candidates that could be available if they don't get HC jobs. Fangio, Austin come to mind. Harbs also likes to promote from within, so Martindale, a former DC in Denver, could just get promoted. He's done a great job with the LB's. If that happens, I'd love to see Menechino come back as LB's coach. The only issue with the Martindale scenario would be if he just took over Pees' playbook. [/QUOTE]

Williams needs more reps to develop. The Ravens use situational players on the DL better than most every team. I'm OK with him being a Dumervil clone for now in his rookie contract.

I think the jury is still out on all those young players. The Ravens really haven't seemed to make the most of the draft in the past couple years. A lot of mid/lower draft picks or even UDFAs have jumped up our depth charts in that time to take starting or situational roles. That is a good "problem" to have, but I think they are not the same team we're used to when it comes to drafting following the last Super Bowl.

 

Ok, if we're doing detailed thoughts, I'll get into this.

1. As badly as Joe played overall this season, I honestly can't be that mad at him. Name another 100M+ QB who's front office consistently shops at discount stores in order to put talent around him. At best you could say the Seahawks, but they've at least tried to build an offense around Wilson over the last 4 seasons. The Ravens have drafted 4 offensive players in the first 3 rounds over the course of the last 4 years. That's out of 14 picks between round 1 and round 3. Then they only shop for free agents during the discount round of free agency. Hell, when they had the decision of keeping a top o-lineman or a top d-lineman, they chose defense. Which brings me to my next point.

2. Brandon Williams wasn't worth the contract. I was one of a few that hated seeing him get the big contract over Wagner, and it's confirmed for me now. The 2017 Baltimore Ravens are the first, and so far only, Ravens defense to give up a 4 ypc average on the season. We've seen some trash defenses in the past (02, 07, 2012, all defense since 2013 when Jimmy got hurt) but none have ever been run all over the way the 2017 Ravens were. The Bengals ran for 150 yards out of constant 3 WR formations. They didn't even need to go with the heavy set formation.

3. I used to defend Pees but man, I'm glad he's gone. 2018 will be the year to see if it was the DC or if Ozzie has truly lost his eye for talent. The 2011 defense was great. The 2012 defense was mediocre and all defenses since have been suspect. Pees came in 2012. So either Ozzie hit a hard as wall or Pees was just that bad. Either way, we'll definitely know soon. I'll keep defending Ozzie for now because it seems like it has to be Pees. We all hated Mattison but his defenses stayed top 3 in yards and points if I recall correctly. Hell, they were statistically better than Pagano's defense.......which brings me to my next point (in a sec). I'll bet a competent DC can use the exact talent we have properly and propel them to greater levels. Now, on to that point

4. Pagano probably shouldn't come back to Baltimore. I don't know if he was truly that good. Suggs was playing at a DPOY level which greatly helped the defense, but we really didn't have a pass rush outside of Suggs. Webb was also playing at an elite level also. Actually, the secondary as a whole played well, which was Pagano's claim to fame IIRC. But the currently secondary isn't necessarily a problem outside of Carr matching up to the opponents #1 WR with no freaking help week after week.

5. As I started with Joe, I will say something similar for Mornhinweg. I don't know how much I can blame Marty considering what he had to work with. There were like 10 drops against Cincy. Can't blame the OC for that in any way. The conservative crap from the first half of the season needs to go and never show it's face again. But the second half of the season play calling showed that Marty isn't complete trash as a play caller. Maybe if they invested in the offense even half as much as the defense we'd be fine. Let's be real, who didn't walk into week 1 expecting the offense to be bad this year?

6. I don't want a RB in the draft. I don't even get the excitement over drafting one. Half this fanbase swore up and down that Dixon was the answer to the hole at RB before he got suspended/injured. The other half quickly fell in love with Collins. Both sides noted the improvement in Buck Allen. So why then do we need to invest a 1st or 2nd round pick into a position that has these three? There is no 4 headed rushing attack. Hell, teams rarely truly have a 3 headed one. And I'd hate for this team to get what is perceived to be a top end RB and use that as an excuse to not invest in WRs. Plus, it's a passing league. Collins, Dixon, and Allen will do more than okay and can easily form a top 10 rushing attack. Hell, a Kubiak/Shannahan offensive scheme alone would improve the rushing attack we had this season that was already good.

7. I hope they don't invest a high pick in a TE either. For whatever reason, we didn't throw much to TEs this year which is honestly baffling. There were games they came up big and then games they just didn't get targets. Draft picks from the first 3 rounds should go to WR, OL, and OL/WR so drafting a 4th round TE, or lower, would be no different than just putting what we have out there. And call me crazy but I think the team could be fine with WIlliams/Boyle/Waller

8. Fix the damn WR corp. I mean actually pretend you give a damn about the weapons around your expensive ass QB. Keep Wallace as insurance. Keep Chris Moore, mainly for special team, maybe even keep Camp for cheap. That's it. Maclin can go. Your 1st round WR that was a healthy scratch in the most important game of the regular season can go. I don't even care about all those preseason warriors that never amount to anything anyway. Go out and get WRs that have shown at least some freaking potential. RR#1 wishlist would be to get Allen Robinson, Marquis Lee, and Donte Moncrief. Lee and Moncrief will be very cheap. Robinson can likely be picked up for "fairly" cheap since he got injured in week 1 last year and didn't have a huge year in 2016 either. Your starters for Flacco would be Robinson and Wallace. Lee is your slot guy (which could allow you to let the usually injured Campanaro go). Moncrief is your 4th. Chris Moore is your full time returner who could enter the line up if necessary. I promise you we'd see the best production out of Flacco we've ever seen. These aren't even superstars, but they'd all have a role in the offense that will help Joe out. Especially if:

9. They actually give the o-line some damn love. Skura played much better than anyone expected, but let's be real, he wasn't in the plans at all. The plans were to let Urschel, who's never really dominated, compete against Jensen, who was a surprise at center, while also having Lewis, who's never actually dominated, compete with an unknown 4th round rookie. Aka, the whole o-line was a steaming pile of "let's hope this works" while we invest more into the freaking defense. They still need a real LG and a real RT. Maybe Lewis kicks out to RT and can be Wagner 2.0, but he doesn't have the strength to man the LG spot and I never understood why people loved him. He was fairly mediocre at LG. Maybe Siragusa takes the LG spot and becomes Grubbs 2.0, but we don't know. In my opinion, the plans should be, at least for now, to put Yanda at LG to pair with Stanley, let Skura continue at the RG spot, keep Jensen at C, and let Lewis and Howard battle it out at RT. This isn't a final line though as they should still look to improve at every possible position minus LT and wherever Yanda plays.

10. This may be the most important one, but stop playing not to lose. Against the Bengals, we were only up 3 freaking points and went into clock killing mode. Why??? For years this team plays not to lose. They give us one game where they are aggressive and score whenever they want, usually against the Dolphins it seems, and then spend the rest of the season playing not to lose. Give me an OC with a Patriots mindset that will want to score every time they have the ball, even if we're up 20 with 2 minutes to go. Give me a DC that will send a jail house blitz while, again, up 20 with 2 minutes to go or at the start of the game. Or better yet, give me coordinators who can scheme in accordance to the opponents weaknesses and coordinators that can actually make mid game adjustments. I want coordinators that use players to their strengths. Tony Jefferson playing 15+ yards deep let's me know a DC sucks. At least then it won't be so damn frustrating to lose a game like the Bengals game. 4th and 12 and we give Dalton time to scan the damn field.

Bonus: Don't let Harbaugh hire any more long time, or family, friends.

I honestly believe this defense has talent as of right now. Jimmy, Humphrey, Young, and Canady are pretty solid corners. Suggs still has it for now, and Judon improved a lot this year while still having more room for growth. Bowser is in the mold of Suggs, and there's no damn reason we shouldn't have been using Tim Williams similar to how we used Pernell McPhee. McPhee couldn't cover or set the edge either, so we didn't ask him to. Weddle and Jefferson "should" be decent if used properly. Hate to say it but Mosely is hit or miss at times. The d-line should be better than it was. Maybe another 4th round d-lineman is needed (/sarcasm).

But he offense needs serious WR help and some o-line help. Joe will never be Aaron Rodgers, but we can win games with him. We all know this, but not when Perriman and Maclin type of receivers are 2 of his top 3. Not when we ignore the TEs and only use them as blockers. And not with a conservative offensive scheme that avoids deep passes for half a season.

I'm done my rant for now

 

Well thanks to the Browns you have the 16th pick in the 1st round. It'll be 20th in the 2nd though.