Ravens Training Camp News and Notes

They had to restructure Jimmy, or someone, as we'd have been about 2M over the cap when the season started. But or course a big part of that was because of all the injured players STILL counting against the cap while also having to spend money on their replacement. And now Lewis is added to that list.

These injuries are seriously out of hand

 

Lewis and White? That freaking sucks. There goes my prediction White was going to be the return man. Is Lewis at least a candidate to return? I haven't looked up anything yet. The injuries are far too much. We haven't even played a real game yet.

 

RR, you have it exactly right for any team up against the cap. Sure losing upwards of 10 guys hurts in and of itself from a talent standpoint, but the continuing problem is the fact that carrying guys on IR for the year still counts against your cap. And anybody that you lose during the course of any season, at a MINIMUM is going to cost you 600k to replace, assuming the replacement is a practice squad guy, camp body hopeful, or cut by another team. And any decent free agent or player acquired via trade is likely going to cost more in terms of a cap hit.

This is precisely why teams like to carry $3-5 million in cap space as a buffer during the season to replace anyone lost to injury or carry as IR-designated. If you don't use it all, you carry it over til next season. But the Ravens are at a point now where every additional player lost that was already on or projected to be on the roster is going to eat away at that presumed cushion of at least $600k at a time toward any newfound reserve by restructuring. They're about $3 million under right now, but over $2 million of that will be eroded by practice squad designation, and roster spot numbers 52/53. They may have to roll the dice and go into the season right at the number, and simply restructure as they go during the season if they need to free up any space.

I'm a Steelers fan and the biggest concern for years in preseason/regular season was injury to key players, never a question of talent, especially at a time that the cap wasn't rising. It hamstrings any team up against the cap number, and the only way to bridge yourself financially is to mortgage more of your future through restructures. Its crazy the number of injuries the Ravens have had thus far, especially the number on one side of the ball. Not a lot of "key" starters, but it erodes quality depth significantly. No players outside of a few offensive lineman and the QB play nearly every snap of every game all year, and those that do almost always find themselves a bit fatigued and dinged up come December. And any time you erode a lot of your depth behind your starters, it creates a razor thin margin for error and further injury. A lot of players sit our a series or two during the course of a game. Today, offenses can instantly zero in on guys to isolate and attack or dictate a match up they like...............just as defenses can better account for and neutralize (or in some cases ignore altogether) those that can cause them problems, or those that they KNOW they can beat on most downs and adjust on the fly. Starters are starters for a reason, so are backups. Pitt went through this one year recently (2013 I believe), shuffling around a 2nd/3rd string center, backup right tackle, and backup/rookie left tackle, all out for the year or extended periods of the season...........and it wasn't pretty. Injuries are a great neutralizer in the ultimate game of attrition. If it continues, the defense may have to be super special simply this season just to win the majority of those "coin flip" games that can number 4-8 for most teams. I'd definitely be very concerned about potentially having three positions on the OL that are potentially the same or worse than last season, and with little quality depth behind it.

 

Not to once again beat on a dead horse, but I reallllllllly wish we'd have kept Wagner and let Williams walk. I'm a fan of Brandon, but what we have right now is a weak o-line, weakened even further by injuries, and a d-line with potentially too many good potential players. If we end up trading a d-lineman for an o-lineman, it'll cement the fact, to me anyway, that a mistake was made.

 

In today's training camp news, Chris Moore is the one receiving the hype and I refuse to fall for it. Until I see him do something that's not in practice, he'll be the next Justin Harper to me.

 

Hola.

I see your point but i disagree. Williams is an utter stud against the run relative to the entire league, while we have very good depth, its just that- depth. Not elite starting material and while this is a passing league and all that jazz ; year in, year out the new trends give way to the fundementals of football i.e. trench warfare and a balanced attack. RB's are undervalued in the draft, so are run stuffers or big 1 techs, but come the season teams and fans realise the importance of these positions.

Definately see your point on O line depth though, it may end up being a big issue but im somewhat comfortable with what we SHOULD have on opening day provided Flacco is healthy enough to start and yanda and ronnie are on form (1 potential HoF guard and another guy who is looking like a stud).

I watched the preseason game this passed week and i love our D. I was semi-erect for the first half. Our line with the infusion of talent in the back end is EXACTLY what we need, not sold on who starts next to CJ yet but im very high on Tyus and tim. Also low key- Urban is a beast.

2k

 

oh and the obligatory fuck chris moore.

2k

 

RR1 makes a good point. The OL has been a source of frustrations since 2013 after the SB roster purge, yet we've always spun gold out of straw for the DL. Williams is a stud and he's paid as such. He has played at a high level for years now. Wagner proved to be a really good RT, but mostly for one season. For me it comes down to consistency and durability. Williams just had more of it. It's only now at this point did we discover we had an excess of talent on the DL and it appears now they are looking to trades one or more for a good OL.

 

Welcome back, 2k. Hope to see more of everyone with the season upon us.

I disagree about the depth at d-line being "just depth". It was just one preseason game, but practically every member of the d-line dominated Washington. The Ravens, when free agency started, had 2 players they were very high on from last season returning who never played a snap (Henry and Kaufusi). They were definite unknowns, but I can bet they had more confidence in them than, let's say, Urschel and Jensen who have played. They could have let Williams walk and kept Jernigan for his contract year for cheap.

Like you said, it's a passing league. When the decision comes to keeping a run stuffing, 2 down, NT who can't rush the passer and who's part of a deep d-line, vs a pass blocking RT who's not that strong against the run and part of a questionable o-line, I'm keeping the RT every time. After all, it is a passing league and your QB is recently coming off a major injury (and currently injured again, although they couldn't have predicted that). Or I'll put it this way. In March, if we lost Williams we knew we had Pierce behind him. If we lost Wagner, we had Hurst behind him. Which draws more confidence from their 2016 play?

I will admit that I loved the defense this past Thursday, but what I loved about them was the pass rush. Williams wasn't really part of that.

 

I beg to differ. Williams often takes 2 OL to contain him. If Pierce is as good as we all hope he is, then who do you contain? Williams or Pierce. You can't use 4 OL for just 2 DL. Either way, it opens up for the LB's & secondary to make more plays. Did you see how many S and CB blitzes they ran? Urban and Kaufusi are beasts, and are made better by the presence of Williams. It's like the 2000 defense with Adams and Siragusa. they took up the middle allowing Lewis, and company to make the plays.
Yes, it is a "passing" league. But, there are still very few teams who don't have the pass/run balance necessary to make it work. The Patriots, IMHO, are the only one that is successful, and even they will use the run against weak run stopping teams. Both Williams and Pierce are above ave. at rushing the passer but Williams has never had the opportunity. Harbs & Pees have both said they will be giving more opportunities for him this year especially if he plays DT and Pierce is NT.

As for Wagner, I wish they could have kept both Williams and Wagner, but giving a RT what was essentially LT money for 1-1.5 good years is not what I would call a sound business decision. In hindsight with all the injuries to the OL, it was, but you cannot have predicted the Ravens OL being so snake bit.

The plethora of quality DL is a good thing, for they can trade one for an experienced OL that fits their scheme (God I hope they don't sign Zuttah). The Lions just lost 2 starting DL in the past 2 days. Maybe they'd trade Wagner for..... LOL!

 

Jazz, I'll have to go back and watch, but I don't recall seeing any double teams on Williams from Thursday. Just a lot of Ravens defenders winning their one on ones very quickly. For instance, that initial blitz that, I think, Levine/Urban got the sack on, there was no double team.

Again, I'd have to check again. I mainly watched while at work thanks to a youtube live broadcast of nfl replay

 

I should be careful here, i do understand your point i think it raises significant issues that we have. My point mostly rests on the notion that the popular rhetoric in the NFL is not true and rarely, if ever, leads to rings. By that i mean, year after year, with the odd, rare, exception we get told how strong this passing offense is etc but it almost ends up being countered by a dominant trench team. Now in this very example we are essentially discussing which part of the trench is more important and i think its largely a wash, with a slight tilt to the D line being the thing we want to be more dominant ( happy to discuss this too), my argument is this:

No player on our O line other than Yanda ( and stanely) is as good at their relavent position and role as williams is at this point. So when we look at hurst, urschel or whoever, the loss is not equal both ways. Williams is amuch better football player and that nullification he brings to the opposing run game IS HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE for our D. Now, the other issue raised is one of depth.

I dont think we have a run stopping lineman as good as williams, he is like mini-ngata to me ( i know, high praise) so the drop off for me from him to say pierce is greater in my mind than perhaps yours. I dont think So it kind of comes to a form of net gain. And in a game of inches and small unites of measurement, having that guy that is just that much better to me is huge.

I hope i did an ok job in explaining why im fine with what happened and why im so hyped on williams being here.

We definitely have issues though.

2k

 

[qiote=RR1They could have let Williams walk and kept Jernigan for his contract year for cheap.[/quote]
Are you sure about this? Jernigan may've come cheaper, but he would've commanded a payday beyond his willingness to perform imo. It wasn't a question of talent, but work ethic. We'd probably have signed him for 80-90% of what Williams got and been disappointed with the result. Barring injury, Williams was a sure thing.

I agree with a lot of what 2k said and I'll add that coaches have to account for discrepancy in talent due to injury, salary cap or bad personnel decisions. Offense vs Defense then becomes an equation to solve for balance. In our case we have a suspect OL. Odds are we don't find that rare player or two that makes it dominant on the cheap. Therefore, add better talent to the defense and give the offense a chance to outscore opponents in a low scoring affair. If the offense can only muster 17pts a game, the coaches better make sure the defense can keep the opponent to 16 or less.

I think Williams rather than Jernigan does that better and the OL is now proving to our Achillies heel (if not Flacco).

 

For the players currently, I agree. And I get your point here and even agree with it. What I meant to say is I considered Wagner equally as good at his position as Williams is at his. Both excel at one area (pass blocking for Wagner, run stopping for Williams) and are both average at best at the other (run blocking for Wagner, pass rushing for Williams). For me, what was behind each of them was the difference maker. And the fact that what Wagner excels at would greatly help their 9 figure investment.

Depends on who you ask, I guess. For example, PFF, who some hold in high regard and some don't, gave Pierce a higher run stopping grade than Williams in 2016.

And I'm sure we're all far more confident in the Ravens find a good run stopping d-lineman than we are in them finding a good pass blocking tackle. Since the switch to the 3-4, I bet we can all rattle off more names for the former than the latter.

I guess it's all kind of moot since the decision was made a long time ago. And like yourself, I'm definitely looking forward to a dominant defense that Williams will be part of overall. I've just always thought Williams would be easier to replace than Wagner for this front office

 

Your last point is where even my doubt and questions creep in. We have better back up options at interior lineman than we do at ourside tackle BUT, i still contend that what we have in williams is far superior overall to what is behind him relative to the tackle spot. I actually agree that interior lineman are easier to replace than a good O tackle, i suppose this comes down to how much you value wagner. Who was out there though? i consider williams elite at what he does, i think wagner is above average at one facet of his game and solid in the other. i think if you replace williams you take a hit on skill no matter what, but the odds of someone being better than say a 7 at pass blocking being available is a reasonable risk, we just havent plugged the hole.

2k

 

I try to keep up with AFCN boards on here and in reading some posts on the Ravens' board, I got the impression that, due to injuries, you guys MIGHT be in some cap space trouble. So I went out and looked up cap space (top 51 only) for the Ravens and now I'm confused.

Spotrac shows you're OVER the cap by $588K while Over The Cap shows you have $9.2M cap space. (Both numbers are for top 51 contracts only.)

Where do you guys think you are?

(OBTW, I'm far from a cap "expert". That's probably why I'm confused.

 

From what I've read, both are incorrect. Last I read, we were set to be almost 2M over the cap with the rule of 51 before Jimmy Smith restructured to free up $5M.

Buuuuut I just remembered the Thaddeus Lewis addition. As a QB, his contract will naturally be higher, so that $588k may be closer to the truth, but if he's counted on it it'll still be off since I severely doubt he makes the 53.

The $9.2M was the number after the Jimmy's restructure, but not under rule of 51. That's under current preseason numbers

 

Thanks

 

When they restructured Jimmy Smith's contract in the past week they were closer to $10M in space. Lewis' contract is $775k with $615k against this year's cap. I really believe he's more than just a passing fancy for the FO. He's proven to be a dangerous player in limited action and Mallet is not an acceptable replacement for a team that prides itself on yearly play-off contention. He may be here to push Mallet, but I think Lewis can overtake him AND his salary would free up a couple hundred thousand.

 

I red today that they had receiver defender drills open to all (guess it's not uncommon). A defender gets to call out an offensive player (any position). Today the coaching staff wanted Za'Darius Smith to call out Austin Howard who had his 2nd full practice. He forgot his name and instead called out "the redhead". That brought Ryan Jensen out and apparently these two have a history of jawing each other. During the action however, Jensen displayed a nasty side by running directly into Smith, then grabbing his face mask and throwing him to the grown. Illegal, yes, but that seems to me a good sign that he's going to win the center job may do pretty well. I'm cautiously optimistic.