Ravens @ Panthers, Week 8 Gameday Thread

I brought it up and it keeps getting brushed off as if wins are what it's all about. Not sure what else there is to discuss beyond that. That was my point - I don't see anything in Jackson's development that says he can win more for the team and there is still a chance for the play offs or, at the very least, not end up last in the division.

There are times when he's been in the pocket and decided to run. You saying he's not doing this? No stats don't show designed play calling and you have no proof that they all designed play calling. You saying I'm making this up is sad. I can merely be that dismissive with you for not proving your point. At least I have stats proving mine. But I guess alt-facts are a thing now.

And again, you saying "making things up" is inflammatory. It's based on recent observation more than you. You don't have to agree with it, but to go as far as saying I'm making shit up is pathetic.

To wit...

 

So you're calling me an asshole?

Jesus, what going on with you? Well this is where you start acting like some puffed up diva.
http://live4sportnetwork.com/forum/...eek-8-gameday-thread.17251/page-4#post-620236

"Asshole approach," "Making things up," "Revisionist history," While yourself making reaches and passing opinions and wishful thinking off as irrefutable facts, like Lamar has progressed (not enough as a passer), the run game is better (because he runs, hence running QB), Joe throws too hard (as if receivers hands are made of glass), Further you leave out positive things I've said about Lamar building some narrative that I think Lamar sucks (false), that he's not made any progress (he has but not near enough), and putting words in mouth/spinning it wrong/making a strawman argument from it. WHERE have I written anything that inflammatory escalating this to this moronic level??

Your attitude since that post has been almost as shitty as the other guy. Worst part is is that you've never been this unhinged and you're the one that's ramped up the aggression, not me. Just go back to that link and read thru back up til now and see your contentiousness, how you've escalated this, how you've minimized my personal observations having seeing Jackson in person and up close while you armchair QB it, and how you assert that you somehow "know better." Yeah, that's rational. You don't have to like or agree with it. But saying I fabricate shit or revise history is going too far and then you have the gall to call me an asshole. I took you for better. Such a shame.

 

In terms of a, we'll say a QB who can run the ball, (as opposed to whether we classify them as running QBs or not) if you think it can be successfully implemented, here or league wide if that's the trend, how are you going to prevent losing a star player like that from injury when these faster defenses finally catch up to him? And the always do. Only Russell Wilson has avoided missing time in his career with his ability to run and that's not mentioning minor injuries that he could've avoided that have hampered his play.

What I've noticed from about the same time was that the trend (short as it seemed) was to find a guy that you described and build an offense as you described. That gave rise to the use of the wildcat and pistol formations that Wilson, Kaepernick and even Newton made popular since 2012. Even the Ravens tried using it sparingly for a short time. However, they quickly fell out of use. DCs and defensive players started to recognize them and contain the run on that side forcing a throw which ends up being a 50/50 shot at best. And if they did force the run they going nicked and dinged.

So why now? Why didn't it just take off since 2012? Why would those types of formations be better in a new NFL if the risk to your star player is virtually every time he carries the ball?

I'm not arguing the merits of the system, but how a team then preserves the focal point of their success.

 

How was it brushed off when I said, repeatedly, that this team very likely isn't making the playoffs with Joe anyway. I'm pretty sure I said this practically every time in response to your statement. Just because you don't like or agree with a response doesn't it was brushed aside.

I never said Jackson has never taken off in the pocket. That's you making up a point to argue again. I said he's not a run first QB. Anybody watching Lamar Jackson plays can tell that the majority are designed runs called by the OC.

You have not proven once that Jackson is a run first QB. You believing that his OC calling run plays for him equals being a run first QB suggests you don't know what the term "run first" QB means. With limited snaps, I've provided video evidence USING YOUR VIDEOS of Jackson clearly hanging in the pocket and/or keeping his eyes downfield instead of just tucking the ball and running. You haven't done the same to prove your point.

 

Yeah, I'm done after this post. Apparently everyone's observation about Lamar Jackson, and you, are wrong.

Yes, it was revisionist history to say Steve Smith, Torrey Smith, and Anquan Boldin caught everything Joe threw at them when one of those three led the league in drops with Joe (Steve), one always had drops issues (Torrey), and one had more drops than he did with other QBs (Anquan). Maybe I shouldn't call it revionist history since it's actually another false statement. How someone keeps using the term "alt-facts" while consistently giving them is beyond me.

Yes, I said you fabricate shit because you fabricate shit. I call a spade a spade. Saying you've revised history isn't inflammatory when it's true.

1. You said the Ravens lead the league in dropped passes when they weren't close.
2. You said Steve Smith, and others, had no issues with catching passes from Joe, meanwhile Steve lead the league in drops with Joe in 2014
3. You said Joe was definitely going to win the starting job in 08 with no actual proof except "I'm Faulk and I say so".
4. You said people were laying all the blame on Joe, which I showed nobody has done and even made sure to clarify my own point on Joe.

All flat out lies. And to add to it, your comprehension is about as bad as Harbaugh's time management. I never questioned your observation from training camp. I questioned why you ignored everything since and, by your own admission, only judge him based on training camp with nothing else since factoring in.

Nobody has put words in your mouth. You just spew so much nonsense that you forget what you say, or you make up too many, as you put it, "alt-facts" to remember what's actually true.

Admittedly, this is definitely an asshole post from me as it's late and I'm realizing that I'm wasting time going back and forth with someone who doesn't understand what a real "run first" QB is, fabricates things regularly, makes up arguments to counter, and yet still tries to speak down to others for some unknown reason.

This is my last post on the subject with you.

 

Yep, you're an insane idiot.

I also think you may have the ADD but it's not as big of an issue as you just being a delusional moron.

If you honestly believe anything you typed in that post you should probably seek out someone to talk with to work through your issues.

Because buddy, you got a shitload of them.

 

Pretty much nailed it. Just like i said in my earlier post, its projection of the highest order but on the other hand, its also top tier popcorn eating while reading

2k

 

From the outset i believe we are in agreement with what you are alluding to here, Ill take the post one section/paragraph at a time. The NFL and most sports for that matter but in particular this sport, is a very rock paper scissor-esque affair that forces one side to react to a proactive move by its opposing unit.

Ditto.

Valid inference and i think we saw precisely this, no more was this more apparent than in the change of linebackers, particularly inside. i think this was most keenly seen in the draft where guys like Keuchly, Mosely, even Sean lee ( my number two that year but a fav, pity about his injuries) to go a bit further back started to get higher and higher grades for their ability to drop in to coverage and actually match up against TE's that were designed to abuse these big stocky enforcers, in essence i saw this D trend to be a progression on the Ray lewis archeype, even quicker, even better in coverage, a new mould. ( the first evolution of the ray lewis type for me was Willis)

Ok all of this is fair but the thing to really consider for me outside the personnel shift is that of the rules. The nature of the NFL has changed to where i dont think we will see the return of the stockier linebackers for a quite some time and receivers and the passing game in general are just far too advantageous and provide better match ups than almost any other battle on the field. And this is a league of match ups. I think the crux of the run first esque QB lies more so with the dual threat capability and not of the mentality. Run first just wont exist, they will get hammered, the focus has to be on passing which means D's need to continue to cater to a less stacked box, better nickles , better coverage LB's and even in some cases better coverage D lineman for more exotic looks.

I will try to not go over huge tangents but the most interesting battle comes in those 2seconds prior to the snap and after the snap, where the cards are called and we see what you got. Right now a dual threat QB keeps a D honest. The NFL has the potential to be the most complex sport in the league but it is hindered by one simple unavoidable truth- that the disparity between the lowest and highest denominator as it pertains to Football IQ, or IQ in general, is vast, so the key comes back to easily digestible schemes and an easy FLOW CHART of decision making for both sides of the ball.

Lamar here keeps the O's intentions honest, and more important removes disguise and subterfuge from the D that is already disadvantaged because it has to react. So the key suddenly shifts to how good a QB is at reading the field. the plays are all so god damn similar with wrinkles, this is why field generals in history of the NFL are so important, they get what the DC gets and can make shifts constantly. Massive tangent but this is the crux of the chess match that exists for me, personnel here allow for more subterfuge, or sleight of hand. and admittedly, a shift in the core way in which we draft certain positions would lead to a change in what type of player may succeed.



I had to split this in two as i hit the character limit

2k

 

100% agree, this lends itself to what i said above and to furthermore the thought that balance is so important, the more time you make the D react to you the better you will be, the more decisions in the flow chart you ask the D to go through, the worse off they will be and mistakes are bound to happen.

Ah well, i think my ramble above shows im in agreement here. it is also why its so frustrating to watch the NFL, the more you know or study the more apparent glaring issues in scheme, game-plan or approach become maddening to see at the highest level. but there is a cultural issue in the nfl that lends itself to stupid plays, mainly either hubris or the desire to be the "hero", over-pursuit is perhaps the biggest issue that comes of the latter.

All of this would turn the ravens in to a powerhouse on O provided Jackson progresses the mental side of his game well. His footwork is not crisp, he doesnt drive nor plant well enough which means he sacrifices both accuracy and power ( the latter being less of an issue given his natural ability) but this lack of elite footwork as ill call it for him is not that bad, because his footwork lends himself to tuck and run at a moments notice.

The important part for me is, what one thing would you change purely on personnel here? you listed several, while i think our biggest issues currently are in the coaching and mental side of things, i would argue on the field- the old saying of the you win in the trenches, still holds true. On this point i agree with beach in that on a field, the O line masks a lot of issue, we need to get this right and lamar will make waves.

Ok this is fascinating, your approach for our O would almost be like new england, nothing fancy, just sound underneath football progressing up the field with consistent and the odd deep hit except we have jackson's legs. Can't say i disagree at all. In fact i would perhaps go one step further regarding the RB and say we dont need a top tier or even serviceable RB, we need a distraction to keep them honest. Just like i said above, two running threats is a fucking nightmare to consider on top of PA's or screens, the motions on the line, or deep routes, just because jackson tucks and runs doesnt mean he cant throw after a 10 yard scramble behind the LoS. What i mean by this is, the running back needs to occupy a defender, a spy or create a gap, this is often done in the passing game with multiple receivers and disguises but not in the running game because how many teams have the option?

every down, essentially could be the following, Qb passing option, Flea flicker trick ( rare), RB running option, FB running option?, QB RUNNING option, QB pass after what could be elusive scrambling- this just includes the people who touch the ball first or operate the ball lets say, there are at least 2 options there that dont exist with most teams, namely the QB scramble, and consistent threat of QB pass after scramble. THAT IS A NIGHTMARE to deal with.

At this point, i would take the PIT or NE option and train my receivers to understand their AFTER route responsibility, find space, get open, the play never dies. This would be mentally and physically exhausting for the D, can you imagine a front 4 or so that are chasing a qb for 5-8 seconds every other down for 8 mins? put a fork in them, they are done.

100% agreed, the match ups become a nightmare, in fact im almost forced to say that a D predicated consistently on Zone just gets wrecked, you need Man coverage, at the very least to SPY the QB, plus on the outside, but that still leaves late routes on the flat, or as you rightly say, if you stretch the field then the hole between even a 2 man deep safety zone and the buffer of the mike dropping in to his zone would leave a gap between the two that could house the fucking titanic.

Its exciting to think about but then again, i dont think most OC's even think like that, there is no real progression, its too old school. it takes too long. The ravens have the potential of a rare weapon here and im not sure we will use it right. Lamar has to work on his decision making, low point release can work if he understands lanes, just like a brees does, but he has to make the reads and know when he has the D on their heels so he can rush and gain the consistent progression you mentioned.

I really should read ahead before responding to each point lol, but yeh i agree, this is essentially what i just said above. it is interesting to see.

If all your insights get adopted then we would have one of the scariest offences in the league, that i dont see happening, i think its more practical to think we get a few of them, and i would focus on a better O line and serious tutoring of jackson and his receivers to understand how to extend the play and make adjustments, its perhaps the hardest thing but firstly he needs time, then he needs understanding.

2k

 

Everything I have read over the last two days indicates that Flacco will not play, Lamar will get the start and RGIII has a role in the weekly game plan.

I didn't mention or post anything regarding how you feel about Jackson, nor did I question what you viewed first hand at training camp. I'm stating that quarterbacks tend to continue utilizing their college style at the pro level because it is historically accurate.

At this point, all we have seen is a Baltimore coaching staff looking to find ways to incorporate some element of an extremely talented individual into the weekly plan. However, when Jackson has had pass plays called for him during a regular series he has not shown the wont to pull down the ball and take off.

He has shown thus far that he continues to be the same style of quarterback that he was at Louisville, which is not that of a 'run first' quarterback.

I don't believe I read anything about Tebow being difficult to coach but that's a different topic altogether.

Tebow's accuracy issues stem from him simply being an inaccurate quarterback in all 4 phases of accuracy. Jackson's issues with inaccuracy come from his ability to throw with velocity from any and all body postures. He has a natural powerful arm that causes him to trust his ability to throw darts from any platform. It's part of the player, but not the sum of the player. Jackson can throw with touch, anticipate, show proper ball placement and is naturally accurate. He needs time at the professional level to mature his game but IMO there is no question as to whether or not he has the arm talent to succeed in the NFL.

The only question is whether or not the Ravens will be able to refine his talents and surround him with the pieces necessary to ensure his success.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that the Ravens are using him in a complimentary manner (rusher/gadget) to their franchise quarterback. The only other viable options are to not use him at all or to start him over Joe.

That gives no indications at all of what they view Lamar as long term. All it does is suggest that they consider him too talented to not utilize in some capacity.

What I said was -
It's not his mechanics but his unbalanced platform that creates throws that can escape him. Basically, if he sets his feet properly he delivers strikes, but at the same time he can make some throws that no other recent draft pick can while on the move.

It's not about him failing to set his feet properly as a regular process of his throwing motion. It's about having the ability to rip shots from off-balance that gives him unnecessary confidence to throw the ball from a shifted platform. He demonstrates the ability to set his feet and throw with accuracy more often than not, but he also has the tendency to throw when moving, sometimes without needing to move.

That's a coachable issue.

His current stats cannot be used as any determination of what style of passer he is because up to this point he has not been asked to play as the regular quarterback.

I have made no comment regarding who would win more games for the Ravens so you are arguing a point that only you are discussing.

Yet Baker Mayfield was the #1 overall pick and sat behind Tyrod Taylor, a quarterback that you can argue was worse than Boller.

You're trying to draw definitives from an opinion that you created based on only the evidence that you choose to recognize rather than the entire scope of events and possibilities.

I'm really not seeing any of the 'Messiah' talk but I personally have been of the mindset that the Ravens needed to move on from both Harbaugh and Flacco so my opinion is already on record.

Baltimore will get a glimpse of what they have in Jackson today but they won't now for sure whether or not it will work for the Ravens until they bring in the new coaching staff and start building the offense around their future starter.

 

You're making a lot of assumptions about the player from build to inability to slide when needed, and you are also looking at this from the point of view that I think it will be happening in the now.

The NFL tends to have cyclical trends. Offenses innovate, defenses play catch up and then the offense changes again to stay ahead of the defense. Bigger goes to smaller, heavier goes to quicker and then smaller goes to bigger, quicker goes to heavier. Personnel groupings change for down and distance and depending on the players you face within your own division the roster has to constantly change to meet with the times.

If running backs in the NFL continue to trend a little larger with more of a 3 down type, then defenses will start to fill out their linebacker group with larger thumpers to compensate. In those conditions a 'run first' or 'read 1 run' quarterback can create a dynamic that defenses have to press the line of scrimmage on, especially with how the RPO elements are incorporated into nearly every offense in the NFL today.

I'm not saying it will happen. I'm saying that the possibility exists for this type of scenario to play out.

The 'Wildcat' happened because Bill Parcell's recognized that he didn't have the proper manpower to go against the Patriots in the East so he got Sporano to work that formation in to gain an advantage.

Teams use it force mismatches and try to find creases in the defense that normally don't exist. It's never been a standardized offensive set so it really doesn't make much of a comparison in this context.

Again, this is based on assumption about the size/build of the player and an inability to protect themselves.

There is already precedent set for 'run first' style quarterbacks to have some success at the pro level, but I was pointing towards the possibility of conditions existing in the near future that could revive the commodity of that style of passer.

 

I think this is going to continue with these kind of players because the advantages they bring are difficult to replicate. Guys like Keuchly are so difficult to find and their impact for a defense is tough to quantify.

The Myles Jacks and Dorian O'Daniels are the kind that if you have several of them on the roster and need to start them across the board for early downs can lead to bigger backs delivering shots and moving chains. They have the speed to cover sideline to sideline and sound tackling ability but a player like Fournette or Bell that has the size and quickness to make people miss or lower the shoulder for positive gain are the recipe to bust them up.

Now, get defenses to try and adjust to that with players built more like Genard Avery and you can create situations where the linebackers get sucked up into the line and have too much size to get back on their heels to react to play-action or not enough range to get to the sideline to run down a quarterback that picks up a quick 3 or 4 before getting out of bounds.

I can't argue with you on the types of defensive packages, types of player needed and the down/distance factor that's involved, but I do think that there is a possibility that early down linebackers will start to trend larger so long as bigger backs continue to find success running the football. That's where having a scrambling quarterback that can get to the sidelines with speed can be a huge asset.

But they will have to be able to pass the football with accuracy. There is no question about aspect.

I have no comment on this, other than I simply like where your head is at with it.

 

Gotta continue this after i see our predictions and commentary on a dual threat QB in action lol. For the record, several points we made are instantly apparent, but granted its off a bye and the D doesnt have much, if any, tape.

I will respond later, provided the ravens dont drive me insane lol

2k

 

I agree on both takes.

I've been down on the coaching in Baltimore for the last couple of seasons. I've discussed prior that I believed they needed to move on from both Harbaugh and Flacco. At some point, you know what you have and if you know it's not enough you have to make a change.

The offensive/defensive lines are always my focal points to rebuild/retool a roster. I still believe that after quarterback, offensive tackle and defensive end are the two most important positions on the field.

Give me an average running back or an average linebacking group behind a great offensive or defensive line and I believe the advantage is mine on almost any given down and distance.

This is a vastly overlooked part of the passing game that ultimately has a huge impact on whether or not a quarterback that buys time is successful in his own offense.

The NFL tends to hold onto the wrong norms for too long and is too slow to adjust to not only innovation but simply what is happening on game day. People talk about halftime adjustments but not a lot of coaches are great at it.

You mention hubris and I believe it's one of the biggest reasons why some coaches continue to fail to live up to the moment. Instead of identifying and adjusting to the situation they simply try to continue ramming their methodology forward.

Square peg, round hole, and then they try to suggest there are other reasons for not getting it done.

This is probably the best place to start to make the shift to the style of offense that the Ravens are going to field with Jackson so I agree with you 100% here.

 

First things first, jackson was fun to watch, i posted some first impressions on the game day thread, but im in a good mood so im good to respond ROFL

I am with you that Keuchly is the Apex version of his mould of LB and it may be unfair to compare people to him but i think we both find similar traits to be desirable. On a slight tangent ( i get the feeling this will happen a lot between us), i always thought the rise of the patrick willis type LB was a direct response to the love affair that the league had with TE's, you couldn't stick traditional corners on them as they were too small and would just get abused inside the 5, but with bigger more athletic backs taking over they started to see some success, but NOW there is another shift taking place, where TE's arent as big bodied, they are also starting to become more athletic with great hands ( that part is consistent, the hands) TE blockers are practically dead imo, they are nice but what im getting at is, the next form of Linebackers may inherently lack that toughness and could come in closer to 225lbs which is nuts but then that would mean the bigger backs you referenced would have a lot of success up the middle but then you would have to still have a back that is a downhill runner with good hands, of which there are...2? maybe 3 imo.

Whole lot of buts.

Right, i agree wholeheartedly, guys like the two you mentioned plus a Barkley, who im very very high on, may see their stocks rise, by that i mean players of their calibre/mould, i think we will see a shift to RB's of such talent going much higher in the draft as opposed to the last decade where you didnt really get elite talents or an emphasis on the running back, the more you lean pass and the D caters to it, the easier it becomes upfront and we will get another 10 year shift that starts to look at the running game again.

Well this is where its all about balance, in order to really get in to shaping a D we would need to look at the balance of each area of the D, i would argue that you dont need a traditional strong safety anymore for example, i rather have 2 ball hawks and a run stopping line backer in front of him, as for the D line, you want guys that demand double duty but can push the line- the only guy that comes to mind that is quite simply broken is Donald, that man may very well be the best player in the league to me, which is another conversation i would love to have. this paragraph is a very brief summary of some thoughts i have, each point could be fleshed out and really explored. I say that because i assert things without defending them mostly because they can turn in to their own topics.

I actually kinda agree, the more we talk, but then there is the issue of roster management, you want a 3 down player but there may be significant merit in a bigger more traditional line backer from say the early 90s. Agreed on the scrambling qb being huge in that scenario.

I noted an issue i have with jackson's feet, to me rg3 was one of the most complete qb's (dual threat) i had seen, his fundamental mechanics were so sound, i think jackson should study the fuck out of him, but all of this, i think we are agreed on the following, is hinged upon his ability to make the right call. he cant be another flacco who cant read and adjust on the fly, its a disservice to his own skills, a qb that can read the D and then make the call POST snap even is where i think a guy like jackson would excel, it happened so many times today alone, they just cant touch him but he needs experience.

Great minds

2k

 

I believe this is where most of us are at. At least the vocal supporters who agree with this, namely RR1 and I.

I would agree given that is where the opposing unit places their own emphasis, but i bring up the point of Donald, there is no one who can stop him consistently, and if we approach the topic of pressure as a concept that detrimentally affects the QB by way of causing mistakes through, lets say fear, or minimises time; then i would argue that the best form of pressure is interior pressure. It is also the shortest route to the QB, and that is what donald does. The real crazy shift on the D line would be a shift to the interior pass rushers that we really havent seen dominate en masse outside of the obvious goats. It would absolutely fuck with opposing offences who have tried so hard to sure up their ends only to realise they are fucked up the gut, they have no pocket and now they cant even run any more smashes or dives- would we see the return of the FB, those bigger backs we spoke off who can pass pro?

Generally though, i agree.

Agreed, we saw this with both giants SB winning teams, but perhaps the position is just too hard to fill with that level of quality? this years draft is stacked to all fuck on D line, so it could be interesting. Big thing for me actually is that, i agree that with an amazing O line you are set with an average Rb and solid QB, but i dont think the other units on the opposing side fare as well. The linebacking group is always helped by a good D line, but the same cant be said for the secondary, again i find the D to be at a disadvantage, they have to play as a cohesive unit, and even if the D line provides pressure, A POOR LB group gets picked apart underneath even if all you do is rush 4.

To this day i am baffled by a lack of understanding or consideration for what happens when a route is complete but the play is alive. It is absurdly frustrating, and i cant think of a team that seems to actively compensate for it other than maybe PIT and ben's shenanigans.

100% i think most half time adjustments are things they should have done in the first place but didnt because they had to go and play "their game" which is just asinine. if i am playing against paper, i dont just play as rock every time because its cool and reflects my identity.

This is very true in so many different sports, its kind of a take on the appeal to authority, that experience means they are almost immune to critique. The whole BS brotherhood shit can take a back seat too.

All this talk has got the old draft nut juices going, im intrigued, but that is a deep hole lol

2k

 

To come back to a previous discussion

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/11/19/we...ce=twitter.com

There's talk from fans saying Jackson isn't ready because he barely passed and that the coaches don't trust him to throw. Turns out, they expected him to throw more than he did. On a few RPOs, Jackson read and open running lane and took it.

In addition, Weddle confirms that Jackson looked horrible in OTAs and Training camp, but talks about how much he's grown and improved on a weekly basis since then. Says the organization knew he was ready which is why he played over RG3

 

I was pretty close in my thoughts back then to the reality of now. We lost to the Steelers but that brought Lamar Jackson onto the scene and Joe has indeed been benched. I was also right that 9-7 won't get us into the playoffs. The Team did prove me wrong though by not giving up and being in their current position of very likely winning the division at 10-6.