Ravens @ Panthers, Week 8 Gameday Thread

Ok, I'm going to break this down into sections

What circles? I'm literally responding to your statements. You keep moving the goal posts, but even then I'm responding to that.

Again, this was you. YOU compared them by saying Lamar isn't even on 11-5 Joe's rookie season level. That was your comparison. I pointed out how it makes no sense to compare the rookie season of a guy who hasn't started to a guy who has. Hence why my only comparison was rookie preseasons, because there was actual data to form an opinion on.

Based on what? It was never stated he was competing to start. Harbaugh said he wanted him to sit a year. Flacco was literally #3 until injury and illness took place. Let's no rewrite history.

Same thing many are saying about Joe. Some have been saying Flacco flat out sucked for years now, and most knew his time was dwindling when the first day of the draft occured.

Similar to Flacco his rookie year.

Right, it's better to be like you and judge him from what he did back in......June? Anything more recent is stupid. Got it.

I'm convinced now you're just making stuff up as you go. After his horrible rookie preseason, many didn't think Watson had what it took to be an NFL QB. They called out his accuracy, mechanics, "run first" nature, etc. Guess what, he actually got a chance to start and proved people wrong. For some reason you want to praise Watson for what he did AFTER HE WAS GIVEN A CHANCE while not being willing to give Lamar a chance because training camp, months ago, told you he's nowhere near ready.

In terms of the assumption that because he hasn't started that definitely means he isn't good enough, please stop. You are the fan of a team who's HC starts the rookies he wants to and ignores others. Was James Hurst so good at RT that he had the spot locked down until he got injured, or could Brown have started at RT and Hurst moved inside weeks ago? Is Kenny Young really not better than Onwasur? Did Marlon Humphrey really need limited snaps for half the year last season? Did Perriman really deserve as many chances as he got?

If you agreed with all these coaching decisions, then I can understand your viewpoint now. But if you've ever disagreed with coaches before, don't try and turn around and act like their decisions are gospel.

At the end of the day though, I can't say whether Lamar is or isn't ready. We'll find out. All these weak arguments on why he isn't are just that, weak. Either way, I've seen what Joe can do. We've all seen what Joe can do. 122 passer rating against the Bills, then 76 the following week against the Bengals. 110 rating against the Steelers, then 60 against the Browns the week after. 98 against the Saints, then 57 the next week against the Panthers. You can no longer win in the NFL with inconsistent QB play.

I'd rather watch Lamar Jackson get experience and lead this team to a 6-10 record as opposed to watching another 8-8 season with Flacco at the helm. At least with the former, you get a better draft pick while also giving your future QB needed in game experience. With the latter, you simply continue hitting your head on a wall and wondering why nothing's changed.

 

I'll say this, I wish Lamar would slide too. To be fair to him, he never slid in college, from what I'm hearing, and never got injured either. So far, in limited time, I don't think I've ever seen him take a big hit, on the actual contact. There was one play where he hit the ground hard though.

But yeah, I hope he starts sliding when he's given the chance to start. For now, I'm holding out hope that he doesn't slide because he wants to prove something as a backup

 

I'm really just shocked that after all these years that you'd simply disregard facts over your frustration. I literally can't argue with alt-facts. How I can tell you're just being irasible is that nothing I said you agree with. I'm not interested in getting into an old See BS style rabbit holes where facts get distorted by tangents and objective observation is disregarded.

Nothing can be gained by continuing this....debate. Truth is reality will play out faster than the pace of this convo.

Peace out, RR1.

 

So your response to getting called out for making stuff up is to accuse RR1 of making stuff up?

He responded to everything you posted and pointed where you were full of shit and you just double up on it?

This is what I meant about you having some really shitty takes.

 

Well, piling on here but this is precisely why i bowed out a couple weeks ago. You cant argue if two people have different definitions and just strawman.

For the record, you are accusing RR1 of everything you yourself is doing without taking the time to address a single one of his points. Even if you think he is being too personal, just address the merits of his reason.

2k

 

Says the noob who's been here for...what...10 minutes? You do realize that RR1 and I have been posting on Ravens boards for almost 10 years now? RR1 and I go way back even before this site was created, but you come here and want to be his...what?...champion? In a debate that didn't include you? What is that all about? You don't think he can fight his own battles or something? Look, don't let one contentious argument over a trivial matter fool you, noob. He and I have agreed more often than not.

As for your assessment of my analysis, you are free to disagree. But you do realize that I actually wrote about 40 articles for this site covering the Ravens and the NFL in general for 2 years, right? You also realized that some where referenced by The Chicago Tribune, right? But of course you wouldn't know that or my history with RR because....say it with me...you're a noob. And you're doing such a great job at it too!

Seems like you desperately want to be validated by the other regulars here and you're trying to build brownie points so they'll take you seriously by piling on the one man that disagrees with the group, right? Posturing like a yipping chihuahua makes you look more like a self-appointed toady than a fan with anything meaningful to contribute. You have no skin in the game here.

So I really don't care what you think or write, noob. I've already been validated....here and elsewhere. But don't you worry tho'...spend 10 years posting here and maybe you'll be one day too.

 

This is precisely why I don;t want to continue the convo. I saw if going there. RR1 posted what I was thinking first so I guess that makes him more right then? It's ALL hypothetical and ALL of it is based on our perspectives. Mine are from actually seeing the kid practice. i saw the talent and the ugly warts.

The crux here is RR1 saying that I'm not taking into account Lamar's development since TC while I'm saying that if it was significant then the team would've benched Joe by now and they haven't. From my side I'm seeing a bunch of frustrated fans (and I am frustrated too) blaming almost exclusively one player and are chomping at the bit for a rookie running-QB with suspect arm accuracy to lead this team to the SB. Because it's all hypothetical, nothing we say here means diddly squat and the next week or so will decide it for us anyway. Whichever way it bounces, we can say "I told you so" then, but it's really a waste to get bent out of shape over arguing hypothetical s.

 

This is a really bad look for you.

Again I have been a member here since 2014.

You replied to a comment that I made so look in the mirror for the reason I joined the discussion. Take another look in it to see why I called you out for being a bloviated nobody.

I remember Kid’s blogs being original and I always kept a look out for them but your work wasn’t very noticeable and was only consistent in being wrong.

 

One guy tried to answer the other guy’s question and give his opinion with detail.

The other guy said “no you’re wrong because my opinion is better” then threw the towel and made shit up when he got knocked.

If I’m out of line for calling him out just say so but I don’t see how that could possibly be.

 

The only bad look for me is arguing with a pissant. You're barely active here, 16 posts since 2014 and you act like you have skin in the game. You offer nothing, yet criticize others who do. Not one of your posts resembles analysis of any kind, only a childlike wish list of desperately wanting Lamar to be the QB. When you offer something more than your feelings, then you can criticize. Otherwise it's just bitching.

And apparently you like revisionist history. You weren't responded to by me for like TWO WEEKS (politely I may add) an now you want to insert yourself in this convo like you've been here all along? Nope. Still going with your "Oh look at me! Validate me! Let's all jump on the Lamar bandwagon together!" wannabe attitude. Your blather has as much meaning as white noise, but offer some hard numbers and we can talk.

Otherwise, go back to such gripping posts like "Winning is awesome. Harbaugh should just do more of that and not that other thing. The other thing sucks" and "I already took down my Flacco picture. Lamar is the future for the Ravens and I'm pumped up to see him this fall." Wow! Insightful!

 

You may think you’re somebody but I can respond to you quoting me anytime I feel like.

Sorry not sorry that you don’t impress me.

You’re more like a bratty kid that thinks he’s way more clever than what he really is. Again this is a really bad look for someone that wants their opinions to be recognized as some kind of authority on the matter.

RR1 had facts and stats to back up his point and you just ignored them and created your own history of Flacco so I see no reason to think you are willing to engage in an honest discussion. Actually you’ve proved the opposite.

My point is still the same. You trashed an opinion you disagreed with and tried to invalidate the person that made it.

All I see is a petty prick with shitty takes.

And I can post about anything I want anytime I want so deal with it blowhard.

 

What facts are being distorted, Faulk? You've said three things that I've been arguing with. I'll even quote them in case you forgot you said them.

1.

This is where it started and this was flat out incorrect. That eventually led to:

2.

By your own admission, this is what you've used to judge Jackson. I've definitely questioned why you've ignored everything since to hold on to a judgment made many months ago. And finally

3.

This was after I compared all three of their rookie preseasons to show Lamar had the best of the 3, yet you come on and say A) that they were good enough to get the start and B) that Joe was heralded for going 11-5 and winning a playoff game? Do you really not see the flaw in this argument?

A) if they were good enough to start as rookies (which Flacco only did due to injury and illness so that's a false statement), then how is Lamar not good enough for playing BETTER in his first live action than they did in theirs? Because you watched him in training camp??

B) Again, comparing the results of Flacco's rookie season as a 16 game starter, plus playoffs, to someone hasn't/hadn't started their rookie season makes no sense. Again, Flacco's rookie season was better than Brady's and Rodger's rookie seasons combined. Apply that same logic to see how flawed it is.

C) Both Joe and Deshaun were widely questioned as rookies. Many felt Joe was a reach where drafted and that he would have fell into the 2nd round. Even Harbaugh felt he needed a year to sit behind the great Kyle Boller and the marvelous Troy Smith. Watson was questioned left and right about his accuracy and ability to adjust and survive and NFL season.

If you'd like to leave this convo, that's fine, because I can't honestly see a way to justify these three statements, the first of which being flat out false. If you are going to continue though, leave the comments about talking in circles (which I haven't done), stupid comments, and claims of bias out of this. I'll tell you my direct opinion below if that's what you want to argue, as opposed to defended the above.

RR#1's opinion on the matter - Flacco has shown who he is as a QB and that he won't get any better. Even when the healthy o-line was pass blocking well for him, and with his best pass catchers of his career, he was still inconsistent. In a passing league, you do not win with an inconsistent QB unless the other players on the team are just phenomenal (see 2015 Broncos). And if you do need a completely phenomenal cast to win games, then you don't keep a QB that eats up a $25M average against the cap.

In terms of Lamar, he was clearly raw when drafted. His first preseason game was bad, but he's slowly improved. Improvements you can see if you pay attention. One of the training camp complaints was that he threw nothing but wobbling passes. He's thrown nothing but spirals in limited regular season snaps and I'm pretty sure he ended the preseason on that note. Even that pass to Crabtree against the Steelers was a good spiral even though he was on the run from pressure, and he hit him in stride. On that Carolina drive, he stood tall in the pocket. He felt pressure and stepped up or over more confidently than Joe has in a long time. For all the talk about him taking off to run, you can see that it's not the case. Watch the 2nd and 2 play to Willie Snead, with a hole to run open in front of him and pressure coming from the outside, you can see him start to run, but he kept his eyes downfield, saw Snead, and hit him almost perfectly. On the TD pass, he felt some pressure on his right side, and even though the ENTIRE left side was open to run, he simply stepped up and over in the pocket until Hurst came open. He hit Hurst in stride in the open part of the zone.

I've watched the Joe Flacco show for years. We all know what to expect. None of us have seen the Lamar Jackson show in the NFL, but I personally see the potential and like the progress I've seen. He may play worse this year than Joe, but I don't see Joe leading the Ravens to anything better than 8-8 at this point, so I'd rather the obvious future QB gets some in game experience now, even if it leads to a 6-10 type of season. At least we'd end up with a better draft pick to get better talent, and Lamar can walk into 2019 already having real game experience vs waiting until next year to get it after drafting at 16-18 after another no playoff season

 

Just a heads up, 2k quoted you, but I'm "fairly" sure his "for the record" portion was to Faulk.

That still feels like a weak argument for a Ravens fan to make about the Ravens. Harbaugh has shown he doesn't like starting rookies unless there is literally nobody ahead of him. Flacco didn't start until Boller got hurt and Smith got sick. Rice sat behind McClains 3.9 yards per carry average as a rookie. Humphrey sat on the bench while teams picked on Carr last year. O.Brown sat while the offense needed help until injuries took place. This is a staple of John Harbaugh's team. Hell, a bad preseason made them run out and find someone to put over Torrey. Then, even though Lee Evans was still injured, they trotted him out there to start week 2 to be a decoy. When that didn't work, they were forced to start Torrey. All he did was score 3 TDs on his first 3 catches. But yes, the coaches not starting a rookie is your clear proof that it can only be because they rookie isn't good enough smh. The only rookies Harbaugh has ever started were rookies with literally nobody, or nobody worth mentioning, ahead of them

I don't recall anybody mentioning the superbowl on these Ravens boards for awhile, let alone anyone saying Lamar would lead the team to it, that's pure hyperbole. In the two threads from the last two weeks:
- Kid has stayed along the line that Flacco isn't the problem.
- 2k has said he's still scared by Lamar's mechanics and suggests Harbaugh might be the real problem
- Kyreal has called out Joe, said he doesn't believe Lamar is ready, and questioned the defense.
- Nightmare has suggested that Ozzie, or Decosta, are a problem with bad drafting
- Jazz has been fairly neutral all around but laid some concern at the feet of the defense
- Tim has suggested the Ravens need a reboot with a new coaching staff in addition and a new QB
- BaltSportsFan feels the coaches need a complete reboot
- Beach suggested that the o-line needs to be better
- Zing has said he can no longer defend Flacco.
- I created an entire thread that mostly called out the coaches, the defense, and the contracts (the first post actually said nothing negative about Flacco).

So where are you getting the notion that anyone on this board is laying the blame "almost exclusively" at one player's feet? You just can't make up stuff to argue and then suggest people are wrong and you're right.[/QUOTE]

 

YEEEEEEEEEEEEP.

I can be pedantic and unclear sometimes but that was not at you Zing, that was entirely at faulk hence the reference to my bowing out of a conversation earlier in the season with him because i was being strawmanned and misrepresented.

I disagree with a lot of people, on game days i am probably the most emotionally invested ranting ass wipe of any of the ravens posters because i get WAY too invested ( i am not suggesting i care more at all, that would be absurd).

I disagree vehemently with people from other boards at times and even here but guys like RR1 and Kid ( far more of an optimist than I) generally make good points.

And by other boards i mean steelers, mostly i end up arguing with beach or mano but they are usually somewhat constructive as one of my other posts may show.

ultimately we are all ravens fans and im all for healthy debates ( i get the irony of me saying that when i can be a condescending ass hole but that comes with being right most of the time )but i have little to not patience for straw-manning, logical fallacy and projecting.

2k

 

Your entire argument here boils down to " you are a noob and i wrote articles", that is a huge appeal to authority and has no real weight in this environment given the barriers to entry that you overcame. What i mean is, kudos that you got quoted by the tribune but does that suddenly mean that all your arguments are sound? that your reason is unimpeded by logical falacy after logical falacy? say it with me..."no it doesnt".

You are hard projecting here, you may be right, maybe he is young and wants the validation of others on the internet, he wouldn't be the first, in fact that vast majority of people want that however one could infer that so do you by the way you are arguing.

The term noob is asinine and betrays your intent and approach.

EVERYONE HAS SKIN IN THE GAME HERE. FUCKING EVERYONE. I am not some admin here but one of the things that really drove me away from posting here is this Bullshit entitled attitude, we are all fans, we all have opinions, we all want that sense of empathy in a group setting when we are frustrated or want to vent. THAT IS THE PURPOSE of these boards. Sure, some people make more rational arguments than others but you are hard gatekeeping and its toxic as fuck.

For the record, I started posting again because i love football ( although i dont get how some of those fuck sticks are professionals) and i respect the opinions of some, not all, of the people here and it leads to a good discussion. those whose knowledge, approach or opinion that i dont respect, i tend to try to not engage with.

This is all coming from someone who a decade ago on See bs was a giant ass hole and at times on here too, grow up man. Just argue the god damn merits of their points.

RR1 just spent at least 20 mins or more going through every point and you just ignored it.

2k

 

This is actually a reason I find it crazy to judge him with a focus on training camp. The footballs aren't even the same, let alone the speed of the game or the talent of the opposition.

He could be a bust, he could be Steve Young reincarnated. We don't know, but I want to find out

 

I will say I'd rather everyone not pile on Faulk too much. I can remember posts were I'd be having 3 different debates with 3 different people, so it can be a lot.

I also don't feel we should call out other posters due to their number of posts. This is a forum, I assume, we all want to see grow. Making posters not want to post here simply isn't a good thing for this forum or any other. Especially since a lot of us, whether Ravens fans, Browns fans, Steelers fans, Beng.....er, um, other fans, have been posting together for many years now (no disrespect to no AFC north fans, I just rarely leave the AFC north boards outside of the wrestling board).

 

I really don't mind debating 3 or more at once. That's not uncommon for me. I don't mind debating new guys. But this was getting to be just noise like the TRUMP!! thread on the politics boards. And by his own account he's not new, member since '14 and active on other forums. I'm all for debate, even a little heatedly at time, but I haven't seen anything this bad here ever...not since CBS.

And I'm not trying to dissuade new people from posting here and only point out that @zingzing hasn't contributed anything then or now, yet tries to ingratiate himself within it at the expense of another. One always pops on every forum from time to time and it's annoying as well as disrespectful to those that have been there for while. That's my point.

You and I have been on opposite ends of some debates before, and it always comes out amicable. That's because we don't use lies to prove lying or opinions to disprove another's claim. We all make errors once in a while especially with 8-10k posts. Zingzing stepped over the line and kept stepping and made it a personal attack. That's when I start giving it back and then some. That's not the type of discussion or dynamic we want here. Or do we? He can take that elsewhere or he can work within our group's culture. Period.

I'll pick up our debate in the next post, but want to point out that,details aside, you and I are really debating something that is out of our control at this moment and decisions are likely already made either by the front office or by fate on the QB situation. All we're really getting at is, in perfect world, who's better for the team.

There is room in this circle of fans for more. I welcome all new members as they arrive. We chose not to carry the garbage and vitriol from CBS to here and kept it that way. I don't think we should tolerate it from anyone coming into the group. Because today it's me, tomorrow it could be you or someone else.

 

This is just absurd. You went out of your way to try and dismiss someone's opinion in a shitty manner because you didn't agree with it. I called you out for it. Put your big boy pants on for fuck sake.

First off, you did lie. Period. You tried to rewrite the history of Flacco becoming the starter. Then you were less than honest with how you approached the rest of the conversation including completely ignoring the person you disagreed with to try and create your own narrative.

And I don't want to speak for 2k but I think this is what he meant about you acting like some kind of gatekeeper. Who are you that you get to decide who posts here and who doesn't? I wouldn't have responded to you the way I did if it didn't irritate me so much how you were treating someone that seems to always go out of his way to have an honest discussing with people he disagrees with. I'll direct you again to your mirror for the reasons why it pissed me off.

You are one of the most intolerant people I have ever noticed in a forum when it comes to someone disagreeing with your opinion.

I will gladly stop posting here if everyone else agrees with you and tells me that I'm out of line.

I honestly mean that. Because if anyone reads through this entire exchange and believes or agrees with anything you posted about it in your last post then this is probably a bad fit for me.