Bob explain to me how Lombardi is this great evaluator of talent now as opposed to a couple years ago when you said he was a terrible GM on more than one occasion
I never said he was terrible gm and I wouldn't have (If I did, I'm very confident that it would be in the context of one area). I said he's bad in certain areas. I think he's among the best drafting gms in the league and I've thought that for a number of years. I've bashed him for many things but some areas he's been outstanding in. I don't think I've ever put him below the likes of Holmgren, Regier, the Murrays, etc. My issues with Lombardi are numerous. I've considered him the 1st or 2nd best drafting gm in the game for a number of years and I think he's excellent at evaluating his own prospect pool, not talent overall and I've taken plenty of issue with his pro acquisitions, extensions and timing, many of his hires (even though there's a ring now), and a number of other things. If I was going to pick anybody in the league to draft for me to build a franchise, I would pick Lombardi. If I was going to pick somebody to add veteran role players (or core) to my roster, I would absolutely NOT pick lombardi.
I was paraphrasing Bob and bustin balls. I actually remember you saying you were wrong on Lombardi with some things you said early on. there are GM's that are good talent evaluators and not good with contracts or handling a team of vets but to me they arent the ones that are great. I do like Lombardi but just because Hextall was there when they won a Cup doesnt mean he was instrumental in it. Ive seen this scenario play out the wrong way too many times. Time will tell
Bob Pulford's son-in-law, gm of the LA Kings, and man that believes Daryl Sutter is the greatest coach ever.
I don't think Hextall, or any assistant gm was very instrumental in any cup win on any team. Sometimes the gm isn't as instrumental as the president either. I like Hextall because his experience seems more in line with exactly the type of experience they need in PHI, notably their farm. His experience as gm of the Monarchs and then going to the high side of that means he will be very aware of all the subtle changes in the CBA and how each move impacts the affliate, big team, and prospect pool at the same time. I've seen nothing from Clarke or Holmgren to make me believe they really understand how to build and maintain a system, let alone evaluate it.
I still hate Hextall and lets not forget managing a farm system that continually had high picks every year isnt the most difficult thing to do, dont believe me ask the Pens and Hawks. you might be right Bob, I want to see the Flyers do well. I do like Homer and hes a gambler which is why I like him so much, the Carter-Richards moves may have been as much to do with the media and public perception than anything. and when those two factor into your decisions they usually dont pan out. In hindsight Simmonds and Schenn(who I both like a lot) havent given much on a return. I didnt like the move when it happened but I also like the fact that he was trying to get younger but maybe better in the long term. That being said after just going to the Finals maybe that wasnt the best time. Keep in mind those two had inflated long term contracts also. As far as Clarke goes Ive always liked him as long as I can remember, loved him as a player and leader. I think his heart is in the right place but the methods need to change. I still hate Hextall - in any capacity, that guy was such an ass!
Yes, he's friends with Daryl Sutter going back to the 80s. Pulford's daughter was dating him and he was around all the Blackhawks when they were a "good ol' boy" organization of WWW lapdogs. He knew Daryl well before he hired him in SJ, I believe he knew him as a player.
I'm not talking about evaluating the talent on an individual level very much, I'm talking more about the day to day operations and how to round out the depth in the system to fit the needs of the big team and affiliate. I'm also talking about making a systemic organizational plan for the franchise, I don't think they have one, or at least one that works. Too much waste for me to believe otherwise. It's the decisions about making the farm better to make sure the depth is there for the big team, about using that 46th-48th contract slot to make the whole system better and actually have them lined up for a trajectory upward to fill in a gap on the big team. (those guys don't make the NHL, but they do improve the system's strength). It's about making sure a couple guys are getting PK time on the affiliate team since the cap won't allow the gm to buy one in the next couple years, it's about making sure a speedy player and a grindy player are in the system and playing in a role that they'll play in with the big team on the 4th line for 5 games in case of injury. I'm talking about matching up the farm player with a player similar to who they'll be playing with on the big team in some roles, stuff like that. I've seen nothing to suggest Holmgren puts much time or effort into all those things, or that he even gets his head around those things. He's neglected the system and it shows, and it's not just because they haven't had the draft picks, a team can still manage a system without picks.
I've seen nothing from Clarke or Holmgren to make me believe they really understand how to build and maintain a system, let alone evaluate it. this is the key sentence about the entire gmship of Bobby Clarke! lets not forget managing a farm system that continually had high picks every year isnt the most difficult thing to do, absolutely untrue. the tampa bay d-rays and pittsburgh pirates had the top picks for over ten years in the draft and now they're good. well tampa has been good for a few years, but top 5 pick after top 5 pick and only now does pitt get it right. they have more top 3 picks who crapped out then anyone in baseball! so having that pick is not guaranteed success. alexander daigle anyone?
NHL All-time teams: Philadelphia Flyers The ground rules: The teams will consist of a center, two wings (regardless of which side), two defensemen and a goaltender. A player must have spent at least 200 games with a franchise to be considered. So Bobby Orr won't be on the Blackhawks' roster or Wayne Gretzky for St. Louis. The Flyers are not an Original Six team, coming aboard in the 1960s. At times it can be easy to forget that as in some ways they have that feeling about them, as a long-established hockey power in a big, thriving market. Perhaps that's because they've been successful pretty much straight from the start and gave the franchise an identity in the early going as the Broad Street Bullies. All along the Flyers have had some pretty excellent talent, something that continues today where GM Paul Holmgren seems to eye everybody in the league and gets about half of his wish list. From the Bullies to the Legion of Doom and everything in between, Philly has seen its share of quality hockey players over the years. That shouldn't be a surprise given the fact that the Flyers have been to the playoffs 16 of the past 18 seasons. Center Bobby Clarke: This was one of the easiest selections for this Flyers team and even this wasn't that easy. That guy named Lindros was pretty spectacular in Philadelphia as well. But how can you say no to this face? If that picture doesn't tell you as much, Clarke truly was the face of the best teams in Flyers history, the Broad Street Bullies. Really, he's the face of the Flyers franchise going back to when it began in 1967-68. He's the all-time leader in games played with 1,144. Every game in his career was spent in the orange and black of the Flyers. A playmaking center before anything else, Clarke twice posted 89 assists in a season (1974-75 and '75-76) and is far and away the Flyers' all-time assists leader with 852 to go with his 358 goals, fourth most in team history. Overall that's better than a point-per-game pace as the only time he finished with fewer than 60 points in a season came as a rookie when he had only 46. To top it all off he won the Hart Trophy three times as the MVP, won the Masterton Trophy in 1971-72, the Ted Lindsay Award in 1972-73 and then the Selke Trophy as the top defensive forward in 1982-83 all while being one tough dude on the ice -- he is fourth in penalty minutes in team history. Quite the player. Wings Bill Barber: Yes, Barber was part of the Bullies but Barber was not a bully. In a way he was a perfect complement to those rough and tumble teams; a high-scoring winger with tons of talent but one who also wasn't afraid to get physical, it just wasn't his best asset. Somebody had to be the beneficiary of all those Clarke assists and Barber was one of the biggest. Inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1990, Barber scored at least 40 goals five times in his career, netting 50 in 1975-76. He never racked up fewer than 54 points in a season; he was a consistently great player for the Flyers his whole career, all 903 games of it. In addition to all that, you can thank Barber for being one of the driving forces behind diving in hockey. On second thought, let's not thank him for that one and say we did. John LeClair: First there were the Bullies. In the 1990s came the Legion of Doom, an equally awesome nickname in hockey circles. There are plenty of guys who could potentially fill that spot but it just seems wrong to not have the Legion represented here and since Lindros is stuck behind Clarke, LeClair gets this spot here (Mikael Renberg wasn't much in the conversation). Of course, it's not like he's undeserving. After LeClair arrived in Philadelphia from Montreal, he boosted his good scoring numbers to great ones. He had three straight seasons of at least 50 goals, five straight with at least 40 and that doesn't even include his first half-season in Philly when he had 25 goals in 37 games. He was a permanent fixture in the All-Star Game from 1996 to 2000. Defensemen Mark Howe: Here we have our first two-teamer in this series. Howe also appeared on the Whalers/Hurricanes roster where he had some monstrously productive seasons in terms of points. But it's not as if he was a slouch during his 10-season tenure in Philadelphia. In each of his first seven seasons as a Flyer he had at least 53 points so it shouldn't be a surprise to know that Howe leads all Flyers defensemen in points with 480, head and shoulders above the field. And while it's certainly a flawed stat, he's second all-time in Flyers history at a plus-349. No matter how you feel about the stat, that's impressive. Even though Howe came to Philadelphia after the Bullies era and didn't help the Flyers to a Stanley Cup title, he's probably the best defenseman the Flyers ever had, all things considered. That is to say that there may have been better defensemen in the black and orange but with all of his accomplishments in Philly that also now include a Hall of Fame spot, he is almost assuredly the best in franchise history. That's why his number is in the rafters in Philly now (Photo: USATSI). Eric Desjardins: I originally had Jimmy Watson, arguably the Flyers' best defensemen during their prime seasons in the 1970s, in this spot but Desjardins has the prerequisites that you need to make the list. He didn't start his career in Philly but he ended it there, coming over with John LeClair in a trade from Montreal for Mark Recchi. He then spent 10? seasons in Philly, acting as the No. 1 guy for most of that time. A two-time All-Star as a Flyer, Desjardins had the good fortune to play with the Legion of Doom in the '90s and put up some strong offensive numbers as a result. He actually topped out a little later though in 1999-2000 with 55 points on the strength of 41 assists. Not to mention he only had two seasons as a minus player (just barely), all while playing upwards of 27 minutes per game. The Flyers would love to have him around still, I'm sure. Goaltender Bernie Parent: Parent is neither the franchise leader in games played nor wins -- those both belong to Ron Hextall, though the difference is razor thin in both categories -- but still it's a pretty easy choice to put Parent in the net, even with Hextall's goal-scoring prowess. How can you argue against Parent? He had two separate stints in Philadelphia, with the second being the best. He came back to Philly in time to backstop the Flyers to back-to-back Stanley Cup titles, earning the Vezina and Conn Smythe Trophies in both 1973-74 and '74-75, forever cementing himself into Flyers lore. His 47 wins in '73-74 were an NHL record until Martin Brodeur won 48 in 2006-07. His career came to an unfortunate, early end when a stick shattered his mask and damaged his vision but that was after an already stellar career and a great slogan in Philly. Notable Omissions Rick MacLeish, Chris Therien, Simon Gagne, Tim Kerr, Reggie Leach, Rod Brind'Amour, Joe Watson, Jimmy Watson, Mark Recchi, Eric Lindros, Gary Dornhoefer, Ron Hextall, Mikael Renberg, Bob Dailey, Andre Dupont, Brian Propp
they played in the world series. when was the last lions playoff game? when barry sanders played? my point is some gms make getting top picks work for them. some dont. lets see how edmonton does.
and you said managing a farm system with top picks isnt that hard to do. well pitt and tampa and detroit screwed that up pretty well. its not easy or an exact science. the only pure fact of the draft is dont let matt millen near it.
Ok Cat and I can count all your examples on a few fingers. again should I list all the teams that managed to accomplish something because of it? you dont have to look far for an example, ever hear of the Pens? of course theres teams that did nothing with their picks but that the exception not the rule
crosby and malkin were no brainers cutter. virtual locks to be great and taking over the throne to the nhl. the lions and pirates seem to crap out every damn year they were in the lottery. like the la clippers in hoops. haha
