NFL - Random Opinions

They prob would but they also want traded players to wind up in a good spot and the Steelers traded for Fields then screwed him over sooooo

 

Certainly idiots like Troy Aikmen put it on his style of play but that thinking is pure dumbfuckery. The exact same nonsense in fact that they used to say about Fields and just as true. Literally for every bad sack there has been, and there have been some, there is at least one more that has stayed off the stat sheet because of Fields/Williams. And i am legit being conservative here, its not even a wash in reality. The common denominator is not the QB, its the quality of O-Line play.

A statue like Cousins would wind up dead playing on this offense. Tua wouldn't wind up dead, he'd get the ball out, but either his completion % would be in the mid 40s or his ypa would be 1 and people would be bitching about that instead.

Its been at least 15years since the Bears had an O-Line even close to the top half of the league. Their last good LT was John Tait, their last good C was Olin Kruetz. Tate retired in like 2008 and Kruetz left in like 2009.

 

Trenches.

It always starts there.

 

I will say though that he held the ball for way too long at times yesterday.

 

Thats been his knock all season. I think thats very adjustable.

 

You are all basically agreeing with each other, so it didn’t make sense to address them separately.

We see things very different. What I see on about 66.6% of the sacks is a clean pocket that Caleb Williams doesn’t understand. This can be fixed maybe, but he didn’t improve at all as the season progressed. The better QBs will take two steps forward into that clean pocket and it gives him 1 more second as well as a cleaner throwing lane. Williams does one of 4 things, 3 of which are always bad, 1) stands still (takes a sack), 2) moves straight back in panic(moves into a sack), 3) moves laterally into the blocking lanes (causes the sack), 4) drops his eyes and takes off running… this 4th option isn’t necessarily a bad move, typically he downgraded the sack to a near positive yardage run. However, instead of committing to the run, if he had just stepped into that pocket instead of running out of it, kept his eyes up, in most cases he had receivers coming into their routes that should have been positive plays.

33.3% of the sacks are shit protection schemes or bad line play…

Second issue I have is, regardless of his arm talent, he has no confidence in that talent. One more thing he can definitely improve on in the future, but I see a guy that is so worried about throwing an interception, he misses a pro window of opportunity with high caliber receivers running high caliber routes. Recognition of these small windows will cause two things to happen, he will improve his down field throwing percentage and… he will also increase his interception percentage because he will actually be taking some risks that a top notch defensive back will eventually get a play on some balls. It’s tough to throw an interception on 66.6% bad sack plays and throwing the ball away before stepping into a clean pocket.

Learn how to maneuver and move a pocket and I think he can become a better QB. Gain confidence in his arm talent and I think he can become a better QB.

I saw zero improvement in either aspect, which is why I am not yet sold on Williams as a QB.

It’s easy to blame line play with as many sacks as the Bears gave up. It’s much more difficult to break down all the sacks and analyze where the majority of the blame goes.

it’s also easy to look at a play and say “all the receivers are covered”. Reality is, in the nfl, most routes look covered, but they are usually running out of coverage and it’s the QBs job to know where that ball needs to be in a route to make positive plays down field. If the QBs eyes are dropped in panic mode, they can’t recognize route adjustments in order to make a timed throw. Caleb Williams eyes drop a lot after the first or second read. He must get better at keeping his eyes up to recognize route adjustments and react immediately. The window on routes closes very fast.

 

Let me just preface this by saying any analysis of Williams in these final games is largely pointless imo. He shouldn't even be out there, they should've shut him down for at least these last two games. The offense is completely broken, an OL that was terrible in week 1 now features 3rd stringers at both LT AND LG + a backup RG, and Caleb has taken an absolute beating all season long. He also has a supposedly good WR corps that has been plagued with drops all year. And irishdawg speaks of a lack of confidence....no fucking shit!

I don't wanna downplay anything here cos the entire post was awful, but this is just horrific irish. 2/3 of all Bears sacks this season from a clean pocket, what are you smoking?? I haven't seen you post something this bad since the time you came on the Bears board and hyped up the Browns signing Kenny Britt! FTR, many people ripped that post, you went off in a huff and Britt proceeded to have about 20catches on the season before being cut.

Question: Have you watched all of Williams' sacks this season? Like all of them. Have you watched every snap he's taken this season? Cos i have. I could break down your 4 points individually but i dont think im gonna waste the time, but suffice to say your view on Caleb is off. Your apparent opinion on the Bears O-Line is miles off.

If you had flipped those numbers you would've been much closer to the truth. In the cold light of day maybe Caleb draws a little more than 1/3 and i'd agree there's an area of opportunity there, 2 things tho. 1- There isnt a QB in the league that doesnt take more than they "should", its just a question of whether you have an axe to grind(with Caleb LOTS do). BTW have you seen how many sacks unnecessary Stafford takes?? Watch that guy play then get back to me. 2- Before TNF(where i personally am halting analysis) Caleb was sitting on 60 sacks(!) thru 15 games. The guy avoids at least 2 stone cold sacks every single game, and thats conservative again it could average out to 3, which would tally to 30-45 avoided sacks thru 15games. However you want to slice this the number of QB avoidable sacks is eclipsed by the number of QB avoided sacks. Bears fans on this site understand all of this. Its the exact same debate that was had with Fields for 3years and interestingly you were a lot more forgiving of the QB back then irish cos Fields was your guy...

Could Williams take a few less sacks by throwing the ball away? Sure. Would you be curtailing a stellar part of his game that will only get better? Absolutely. Do i want to see any of that happen? Hell no! But the whole discussion is largely moot because it isnt the crux of the matter. The crux is whats going on around Williams and its ALL bad. Putting an insanely talented QB in the worst situation, then blaming the product on him and saying he's what has to change instead of all the things that make it the worst situation is about as stupid as it gets.

This is the closest thing you wrote to sensible and i agree with the premise, but it doesnt play out in your favour at all. If you believe what you just wrote then why are you drawing such clean lines of blame?

None of this entire discussion addresses the issue of hits/pressures btw. The sack total doesnt even shock me particularly, i kinda expected it. The mountain of hits/knockdowns is what has been been shocking. Going by ESPN stats Williams has taken 14 combined sacks/QB hits in 6 games this season. He took 18 against the Texans, he took 22 against the Patriots! And im not talking just long drawn out plays, there's times he will take a 3 step drop, the ball comes out right on time and its a completion... then the camera cuts to Williams and he's on the ground. Those are plays your QB should be completely clean and he's getting hit in the back. Its insane and you better believe that will start to play on a QB's mind.


Finally can i just point out how much i LOVE this. To finally land a franchise passer only to put them in the worst situation possible, forcing Bears to deal with stupid shit like this is just this organization down to a tee. Fucking Bears.

 

I mean 66.6% of sacks from a clean pocket. Holy hell.

 

I've watched the All-22 of almost every single snap of the Bears' offense this season (a couple games behind, at the moment - just finished Thanksgiving). I can say this with certainty: Caleb has had some really bad snaps. However, he has been the brightest point on this offense since the beginning of the season. You could make the case that Kmet is the other standout player, in comparison to the rest of the team.

But I don't think that people fully understand just how awful this team is, and how it affects every player on it. Caleb has regressed in several really scary ways. Kmet has regressed in several really scary ways. Moore is just not even playing football, most snaps. Rome has no idea what he's doing or where he is for half the game. The offensive line might as well be playing with blindfolds on for all but five snaps. Swift has never seen a run that he didn't want to bounce outside for fewer yards than he could going north-south.

I haven't read all of the back and forth above. And I haven't chimed in much on the team boards recently. At this point, the complete dysfunction has led to a very damaging season for everyone involved, and the sooner it ends, the better. Nothing good is coming from this team as it is, and it would be a mercy to let them pack it in so that we don't continue to develop bad habits, get people hurt, etc. If any decision maker in this organization, save for Kevin Warren, is back next year, the team is completely fucked. The fact that Ryan Poles set all this up to happen and then just watched as it imploded is one of the most damning things I can say about any manager, setting aside all his other clear flaws.

I won't go into a rant. I told myself I wouldn't. But, suffice it to say, if you're watching the film, you can clearly see that Caleb has made some bad plays and also made MANY, MANY good plays in spite of this offense and horrendous organization.

 

Just to add to the above: one of the things that Caleb did best coming out of college was setting his feet. Yes, he was known for big plays out of structure, for making circus throws, etc. But what he did so well that most people don't bother to pay attention to is how calm he was in the pocket. Hits the back of his drop, feet are lined up, no wasted movement, not throwing off-platform from the pocket, etc.

Now? He's a fucking train wreck. That Thanksgiving game, I think there were only one or two snaps where I can remember him actually setting his feet and calmly getting through his reads without a bunch of extra wasted movement. Insane. Absolutely insane. We have watched the Bears actively break one of the best parts of a franchise QB's game in under one season. That's how under fire Caleb has been, and how dysfunctional this offense - and, as the cause, this organization - is.

It took a lot of work for Caleb to get to that point in his development, where his feet and pocket presence were such an asset. It took one season of absolute dipshit fuckery for it to get wrecked. Here's to hoping that Caleb gets with someone competent in the offseason outside of the organization, and the Bears hire someone competent to re-make the team for his return. I'm not optimistic, but I'm hoping.

If it's Ryan Poles, I'll make a friendly little visit to Halas Hall myself. We're flying to Chicago in the next few months for a family get together. And if I need to go sooner, I'm close enough. Sick of this unserious organization.

 

You just highlighted the absolute first place id start re whats gone wrong. Watch any of his games the last few weeks and then compare to early in the season, it just leaps off the film. I actually commented towards the beginning of the season how surprised i was to see a rookie look so polished, in the whole motion really, but particularly the footwork and the base he was throwing off. A base as solid as the rock under Edinburgh Castle was the term i believe i used. Now its unrecognisable. Its a classic case of happy feet im sorry to say. Its what happens when you take over 100 hits from 250-300lb monsters all season.

Nothing about whats happening to Williams should come as any surprise, well except maybe the hilarious double standard that he gets held to compared to the rest of the QB class. I see people gushing about Bo Nix in the 4th Q yesterday in spite of the fact he actually lost the game. Funny, when Caleb led a game winning drive against the Packers, or TWO game winning drives against Wash, or forced OT against the Vikes with 10points in 2mins only for everyone else to F it up each time, no one was that interested. They are interested in the "terrible" sacks he takes, but they're not so interested in the two terrible sacks Nix took to kill any chance of points right before halftime in a game that went to OT.

Yes that "narrative" sure is a funny old thing.

 

Terrible sack for Maybe to take here.

Why doesn't he get the ball out? Why doesn't he find his check down? Why doesn't he just step up, its a clean pocket if he does.

Thats how it goes right?

 

LOL, well, I don’t know whether to blush that you follow my posts so closely, or start a debate on how closely you actually read and remember those posts.

I can honestly say, I don’t ever recall trolling the Bears board boasting about Kenny Britt. You’ll have to jog my memory on that interaction. I’m thinking you are most likely exaggerating about some random post made, but I’d be happy to go down memory lane and give you due where deserved if I did. Just please reference the conversation so I have some point to go from.

The sacks are readily available online. There isn’t a single reference point to go, but it doesn’t take long to go through each of them. If someone wants to take the time to put each one on here(or better yet a different thread so those who don’t give a shit can avoid it), I would be happy to debate what is and isn’t a clean pocket.

Again, I don’t have a skin in this game and I sure as hell am not trolling the Bears board here. I was simply speaking to a post that referenced me from Tim. If you disagree with it that’s fine, let’s discuss it. I see what I see and described my thoughts on the subject, all I’ve heard from you so far is.. “This team sucks and it isn’t his fault because they are shit”.. I’m paraphrasing of course, but it isn’t a great argument against my post specifically.

Caleb Williams isn’t a bust. Never said he is. What I said is, if he can’t learn to understand the simple art of the pocket, he most likely will be.

 

You don't watch enough Caleb Williams film - from college or this NFL season.

 

Literally the play that I'm watching (a few weeks back, as I said) as I read that comment:

 

Images in order:
Pre-snap
Feet set at first read
Hitch to second read and immediately thrown
Ball in air, Caleb falling as his center and opposing defensive tackle impact his lower legs

Ball was out in under two seconds.

But yes, Caleb needs to "understand the simple art of the pocket" more, for sure.

Enjoy, y'all.

 

So.. there is one example out of 60+ and I’m the one that’s over simplifying the percentages? I did say there was 33.3% of shit coverage calls and terrible line play. You just have an example on 1.5% of the plays to discredit me..

This example doesn’t even contradict my comment. This example shows a play with an abhorrent breakdown of the pocket, not Williams inability to recognize a good pocket. At least break down a play where he is able to step into a clean pocket and make me look stupid… which is still a reach, lol, one play doesn’t take away the majority of the sacks on film showing a pocket to step up into and he doesn’t. Some of the ones he does step into, his eyes drop and he tucks the ball to run instead of keeping his eyes upfield to see where the reads are in their breaks. I’m not understanding where the bashing comes from in my observance. I don’t think I was disrespectful in my evaluation.

 

Well, two things:

1) Like Ev said, you're just not making a lot of sense. It takes a lot of work to figure out what you're alleging - though I do appreciate you restating it at the end of your post, because that was the only moment where I felt like I understood what you were trying to say. Maybe it's a misunderstanding as to what certain terms mean or what standards you're applying to the same film the rest of us are watching, I don't know.

2) With that said, it's also because you're completely wrong. I mean, not exclusively - Caleb has had a handful of bad snaps, absolutely - but when we're talking about a player's performance and tendencies over the course of a year, we're talking about what they do on most snaps. And Caleb is most certainly NOT struggling the way you allege on most snaps.

I'm not going take screenshots, compress the files, upload the files, and then type out a breakdown of every fucking play for you, dude. You're the only person here who feels the way you do - you pull up the film and show us, if you're so inclined. But, please, at least watch the film. Watch a whole game. Write down what plays you feel he does / doesn't meet your standards in regards to pocket presence, whatever they may be. Then get back to us. Because I have a feeling your "I pulled these from my vacuous asshole" percentages are probably going to be way off.

Edit: sorry, you didn't deserve some of the tone / language on my part. Been a frustrating end of the day with some people, and it came out in the way I wrote that. However, it doesn't change the content of my post or complete, substantive disagreement I have with your evaluation, and my request to you to actually watch the film in its entirety. Take care.

 

1st and 10, 14:57 left in the 4th of that same 49'ers game. I'm not going to screenshot it all for you. Roughly three plays after the one I screenshotted for you above. Caleb takes a five step drop out of gun, has all day (takes two hitches and then keeps his feet set as he scans the field, but had time for a third hitch at least), has NO ONE to throw to, avoids pressure coming at his face, resets his feet to throw, sees that he still has no one to throw to, and runs it for a meaningful gain.

I just don't know what we're doing here. Anyone making allegations that he doesn't have a feel for the pocket just genuinely hasn't watched film. Not seriously, at least.

Has the constant barrage of bad calls, complete offensive dysfunction, and nearly-every-single-snap pressure / hits made him regress? Absolutely. You can see his lack of definition in his footwork on some plays, often consecutively in the same drive, and how violently he'll often move in the pocket to get away from pressure that maybe doesn't always require it. This has hurt his accuracy tremendously. But a lack of pocket awareness? Or the "art of the pocket" or whatever bullshit it was called? Just divorced from reality.

 

I’ll freely admit I haven’t watched every play of every Bears game, I’m a Browns fan and can’t take that kind of punishment from two teams. The subject was sacks, thus that is the only research I looked at. It’s much easier to round up and look at about 60-70 plays than it is watch 1,000 plays with scrutiny. I was ONLY giving an opinion on the plays in question. I reiterate, it was an opinion on the random opinions board, and I get blasted. No big deal. I have enough shit to deal with on the sinking Browns ship, I’ll leave you all to deal with your own issues in Chicago. God bless and have a Happy New Year.