NFL - NEWS & NOTES

Report: Greg Schiano will be named Patriots defensive coordinator...

The Patriots never gave Brian Flores the title of defensive coordinator, but he took over the responsibilities from Matt Patricia in 2018 and wound up as a one-year solution as the Dolphins hired him as their head coach this week.

Even before Flores officially signed his contract, there was word that former Rutgers and Buccaneers head coach Greg Schiano was a likely addition to the Patriots staff and possibly the team’s next defensive coordinator. It appears that’s how things are playing out.

Jim McBride of the Boston Globe reports that the team will “imminently” hire Schiano to take over the top job on the defensive staff. Schiano was most recently the defensive coordinator at Ohio State and has long been the subject of complimentary comments from Patriots head coach Bill Belichick.

That affection extended to the Patriots acquiring several players that Schiano coached at Rutgers. Safety Devin McCourty, cornerback Jason McCourty and safety Duron Harmon all played for Schiano in college and were playing big roles in Super Bowl LIII, so Schiano will have some familiar faces on hand once a deal in New England is official. (PFT)

 

And how many kickers did each of those teams go through to find one, if they ever did actually find one.

I'm not saying keep a guy just because the market is dry...if he is unreliable, then do your best to remedy that situation.

Kickers get passed over on the regular when they don't have a job, it's the nature of the beast. They bring 3 kickers into camp every season, whether they have a future hall of famer on staff or not, then he gets cut...then teams that don't see what they like in training camp bring in a couple of cuts by other teams to try out right before the season begins, but essentially ONLY 32 KICKERS have jobs each year, until an injury happens and one gets plucked off the street. When there is a training camp competition, for most positions that means to be a starter or majority contributor...for Kickers, that literally means their football life. If could be the difference of two kickers making 15 of 15 FGs in the last competition of the year before cuts, but one put it in different spots of the goal posts for their coaches simulating different wind speeds.



I don't totally understand your examples...

Daniel Carlson has been in the league exactly one season...Did the Vikings cut him prematurely, well you already said it, he was there after missing 3 out of 4 attempts...that was "unreliable" in the eyes of the Vikings and I can't say I disagree. They didn't cut him because of money. The Raiders were the beneficiaries of that mistake obviously...Still doesn't have anything to do with cutting a RELIABLE kicker because you want to save $2M on your salary cap, which is what we are discussing.

Luck has everything to do with it if you make the decision to move on from a reliable one, you nailed it on the head. What isn't lucky is the dumb asses who have a reliable kicker, cut him for money reasons, then can't find a reliable replacement.... The Patriots have won 6 Super Bowls over the past 19 seasons, how many kickers do you think they have replaced over that time period? Vinatieri won (3) Super Bowls with the Patriots before moving on to the Colts and has been there ever since, winning another Super Bowl with them. Gostkowski has been with the Patriots for 13 seasons winning (3) rings of his own.

How many rings have Vikings kickers won in that same time span? How many kickers has the Vikings went through in that time span?

My point is, good teams don't "fix" what don't need fixed.

 

@Underdog

For your sake and ours..I wish the Patriots did let Gostkowski walk for cap reasons, then you would see what the rest of us already know. You're ignorant to the situation because you have watched exactly (2) players kick for the Patriots over their (6) Championship run. The rest of us who don't have a reliable kicker has seen WAY more than that go through the doors...

Phil Dawson was one of the original expansion players (and last one standing by a long margin). He lasted from 1999-2012..He was one of the highest paid players in the league at his position every year and you know what, no one in Cleveland cared because it was the one spot on the roster that you didn't have to worry about.

Since 2012, the Browns went through (3) kickers in 2013. They had a (2) man kicking competition, settled on one and cut the other. The one they kept went on IR before the season ever started and they had to go with Billy freaking Cundiff that season who missed 5 FGs..The following season, they had to move on from Cundiff after missing 7 FGs, so they picked up veteran Garrett Hartley (yes the Saints Garrett Hartley who was at the end of his career). Then they moved on to Travis Coons who missed 4 FGs and 2 PATs in his only year in Cleveland. Next up in 2016 Codey Parkey proceeds to underachieve by missing 5 FGs and a PAT. So, they draft the most efficient kicker in NCAA history in Zane Gonzalez who barely wins a kicking competition in camp and goes on to 5 FGs (4 of which were between 30-49 yards) and a PAT. We finally had to abandon that college stud draft pick in 2018 after COSTING US TWO GAMES missing (3) FGs and (2) PATs in our first two games decided by 3 total points, the first game a tie and the second game against the Saints that beat us by 3 in OT, he missed 2 FGs and 2 PATs. So, we move on to Greg Joseph who had the dubious honor of missing the game winning FG in the finale against division rival Ravens. He did show a little promise in making 17 of 20 FG attempts, but he also missed FOUR FREAKING PATs...So, we are back in the market for a kicker this off season.

In case you are counting...Phil Dawson - 12 years as the Browns kicker, in the 5 years since then, 8 kickers and still looking.

Good luck in your quest to "replace" Vinatieri. You might not get lucky a second time....or 3rd...or 4th...or 5th...

 

I have confidence in the Pats' ability to find a replacement for Gostkowski if they decide to move on.

I'm fine agreeing to disagree on the fungibility of kickers at this point. My larger point was still - is Gostkowski worth paying at the top of the kicker market, because that's already where he is, and if he's still that good, then there shouldn't be any hesitation to continue to pay him at that level, right? Is the consensus here that Stephen Gostkowski is a $5MM a year kicker? I haven't heard anybody come right out and say that yet.

Put another way - at what point does paying for certainty become overpaying for certainty? Particularly for a commodity where even relative certainty still comes with a high degree of volatility.

 

Eagles had Parkey and some other kickers and when they all either crapped out or got hurt they found unsigned Jake Elliott on the free agent wire and snatched him up. He's far from perfect but he hit a record setting 61 yard fg at the linc last year to beat the Giants and made a lot of key field goals on the way to the SB last year. He's still an Eagle next season.

 

Vinatieri was already replaced 13 years ago. Ironically because Belichick didn't want to pay him at the top of the kicker market. :)

 

I don't know if he ever was...My argument isn't for or against Gostkowski..that isn't where it started and it isn't where it's going to end. It was that teams moving on from a reliable kicker because of money is bad management. I honestly don't know where Gostkowski lies...He's a Patriot and I don't really care.

I get your point now though in regards to him in particular. You would need to evaluate his performance and see if he is in the category of reliable. If I get bored I'll look at him and give you an opinion...fair enough?

 

LOL, you knew who I meant...

 

Fair enough.

IMO, his reliability is in obvious decline since 2015.

 

Patriots fans are the single most spoiled fans of all time. All season long, including in the playoffs, my friends kept saying, "Nah, they won't do it - this team doesn't have it in them to get to another Super Bowl". But as soon as they won, the NE jerseys came out, and the chants of "6 rings" started up. Now we've got this idea that Gostkowski isn't worth it, and the team should be willing to jump into the pool of complete uncertainty and mediocrity that is free agent kickers...

Do it. Go for it. Dump a kicker because you want to save $2 million. It'll totally be worth it. I'm sure, when it's time for a crucial field goal, you'll feel differently.

He's worth $5 Million a year, fucking pay him. I hadn't said it explicitly, yet, because I didn't think it needed to be said. Nobody's hesitating except Pats fans, apparently.

If you're going to pay a kicker, you might as well be sure it's a good one.

 

Well, this Pats fan, anyway (I already said I seemed to be in the minority on my opinion among Pats fans and that's why I was soliciting opinions among non-Pats fans of how good he is), because he's 35 years old and declining.

So pay a good one like a great one because he's not a mediocre or terrible one. So there's never a point where a good kicker becomes overpaid? If he wants elite QB money, give it to him, because hey, he's "good."

 

If "overpaying" means by $5+ mil a year than you should, then no.
If "overpaying" means by $1 mil a year than you should, then absolutely.

No one EVER suggested paying him QB money. Stop being dramatic.

If you honestly believe that Gostkowski is no longer a good kicker, then let him go. I think you'd be wrong.

 

Ya! Let him go !!!

Without even trying I can think of two teams that would snap him up in a heartbeat!

 

I never said he was no longer good. But he is pretty cleary in decline and no longer in the conversation for the best kicker in the league. So I don’t find it unreasonable to question whether he should continue to be paid as though he is.

 

At say 3 years $17m?

 

Those are simply fictitious numbers you pulled out of your ass to bolster your argument and presented in a manner to look worse than it is.

Now, if you want to say $5M / year plus incentives? Yes.

 

Unlike you, I didn't put words in anyone's mouth. I said, "If you think that". You say you don't, so that should end the conversation.
It's not unreasonable to ask the question. But you have, and you've continually been told the answer.

Who is saying that? You?

Gostkowski is currently the highest paid K in the league, at $4.3 mil per year. The only other K with a contract expiring this offseason that has a comparable salary is Phil Dawson, at $3 mil.

Chances are good Gostkowski will set the market again. Chances are good it won't be at almost $6 mil per year. And if it is, what you're telling me is that an additional $1.5 mil per year is worth missed FG's and potentially going home before another Super Bowl that the opposing team hands you?

Again, if you think he's not worth it, let him go. That seems to be your position. Everyone else seems to be saying it's silly. What's the counter-argument?

 

Yes that's me saying that could be a speculative FA contract for Gostkowski if you start with the cost to franchise a player for two years as the baseline for the guaranteed money in a new contract (which would be a little under $14M for two years since he's already the highest paid kicker in the league) and the fact his last deal was 4/17...if he's setting the market again then it's gotta be a better deal than that was.

And if that 1.5 mil per year is the difference between, say being able to keep Trey Flowers or not, then yeah I'm willing to take my chances with 95% of the productivity for 10% of the cost. If I'm paying at the top of the market for a guy, I'd like him to at least be in the conversation of the best players in the league at his position. Call me crazy.

 

so 5m a year plus incentives over a 3 year term might be around, oh I don't know...let's see carry the one...16 or 17 million? Sheesh

 

Anyway, thank you all for your input, we don't need to belabor this any further. Looks like non-Pats fans have the same opinion about Gostkowski as Pats fans do.