I have to ask, Will - do you know what the protests are about? Because the whole point is that there is a very clear division in this country, and this is an attempt to bridge it. It's the people who see the National Anthem as more sacred than the systemic and routine mistreatment of Americans that are causing the divide. They do it "in the eyes of the world" because that's the intent of a protest - to get attention, and through it effect change. Maybe, if you want to watch the NFL for months at a time, you should have to take a couple minutes every now and then to consider something more important than whether your team might win. And, very notably - it's only for a few minutes. I don't think it's asking a lot.
I think Will's point is...There are better platforms to do it. When Kaep did it, the word got out and people began to educate themselves. The problem is actually being discussed and solutions hopefully are on the horizon. Education is the ONLY way to get it under control. However, at this point, it has become an issue on respecting the flag and the message is lost. It has worn out it's use as a platform anyway. The message NEVER comes back to the issue at hand, it has simply caused a bigger rift than was there to begin with. The ones that are willing to educate themselves have, and with hope and prayer, the issues at hand will begin to heal when more and more people get involved with the process. For the present time though, sitting down to watch a football game is a relaxation pass time. Not very many people are tuning in to get a political discussion going. The platform isn't working any more. Kaep did his job. The rest of this is causing more problems, than finding answers to the real problems.
I liked your post... it raises a good point. The answer to the question is yes, I do know what the issues are and the point some are trying to make. I don't discredit that or deny there is an issue. I also believe this needs addressed. I just don't think, in my opinion, the National Anthem before a game is the right way to go about it. Its highly offensive to many people and seen as disrespectful by a bunch of folks. If some people believe there is injustices and there are, the issues can be dealt with in a fashion that doesn't offend others, in my opinion. I think the National Anthem stuff has proven its point and is now becoming a divisive issue and instead of addressing the issue its causing more division... its raised the issue, how long dose this tactic need to last. In my mind, its only caused a larger rift in society and is back-firing in that regard. One wants some change regarding abuse/brutality, they shouldn't heep gas on already existing fires. There is and must be better ways to get the word out without offending so many people. For me personally, I invoke change by my own personal actions... I try the best I can to set a positive example, but not at the expense of others feelings or beliefs. Just my 0.02... thanks for reading.
I don't see any evidence of this. The people who support the movement are the ones who agreed with it in the first place. How do you see even Kaepernick's original protest as having had a positive impact, across the country / socially? Where do you see this? Lyman said this in another thread, and it was very succinct and accurate: we caused the problems because we're fucking lazy. It's not an excuse, to say, "I'm gonna ignore the idea that an entire segment of Americans are unfairly / violently treated because, damnit, I'm here to drink a beer!". That's total bullshit. Lazy, selfish people shouldn't be excused. He's doing his job - volunteering and donating in communities in need, trying to effect change. Maybe the rest of us can literally take a few minutes to think about his damn message, in the first place.
This is from another thread, but at this point the conversation has stalled out for the same reasons I had posted previously.
Unjust treatment of Americans is offensive. You want the protests to stop? Don't shout back at them - agree with them, and do something about it. That's the answer. You don't like people kneeling during a song? Shit, I don't like an entire segment of the American population being treated unjustly, violently, and with discrimination. I think, if you asked someone who actually suffers from the above, they'd tell you that whether you stand or not for a damn song isn't all that important. Let's not act like everyone revered the thing in the first place - a lot of those people are the ones shouting that people should be standing. Why? Because it's never been about the damn song, it's about the fact that they disagree with the message. The people offended by those kneeling for the National Anthem are the same people who don't suffer the offenses being protested. The protest was started under the advice and consult of veterans. America is about freedom - that includes expression - and its soldiers didn't fight and die to protect a song, they fought and died to protect freedom. Put it in that perspective, and defending a song over Americans' equitable treatment seems really fucking stupid (because it is). Here's a crazy thought: the division isn't a result of the protest (protesting an issue that exists), it's a result of everyone else trying to shout it down, and denying to address the issue that's being protested (which already exists). The division that you're referring to would be solved if everyone said, "You're right. That's a problem. Let's take care of it". Instead, the protest was met with derision, disagreement, and ultimately oppression of the protests. Without that, we wouldn't be in this position. That's a good thing, Will. I wish everyone did this. It would solve the problem we're talking about. Note: if others' feelings or beliefs are wrong, then those feelings or beliefs shouldn't be respected / accepted. I can believe that when you jump off a building, you fly, but gravity isn't going to respect my belief. Just my 2 cents, as well.
I understand what you're saying, Tim, and I do think that it might've helped move some people to a different side of the fence. However, I don't think it would've solved the problem. It would've made it a lot harder for people to shout at Kaepernick and everyone else, but there would still be plenty who would've done it. The repeated phrase, "This isn't the right way to do it" wouldn't have gone anywhere, and the problem wouldn't have been solved. It would've helped, but I don't think to a great enough degree that it changes the conversation. It just might've kept a couple people quiet.
I think that neither side of the discussion gives the other side enough credit, let alone the benefit of the doubt. Two people standing in a room screaming at each other does not qualify as a conversation but, unfortunately, that's exactly what passes off as discussion right now.
I feel the need to clarify the above quote. My comments about people being lazy dealt with fucking paper straws, not disrespecting the American flag and/or Veterans who have died while serving under that flag. And I resent you lumping those two issues together under my name. I have very strong feelings about players kneeling during the 1 minute 40 seconds reserved to honor our flag and veterans. You can misquote me til the cows come home and I will never change my position. I get it. These assholes picked a very special 1:40 to get their message out. They succeeded. Their message is out. There is no longer a need to continue this disrespect.
There is another crazy thought that will also not be popular with you..But, many of the ones shouting inequality are those with criminal backgrounds and refuse to use the avenues that are available to them to get themselves out of the situation they are in. Education goes both ways. The vast majority of those who feel oppressed have opportunities, especially at a younger age, to utilize tools that will break a vicious cycle. I understand there is vulgar racism and sexism in this country that needs to be expelled. But, the oppression that is being discussed isn't as widespread as many are talking about. The oppression that continually gets press is that of situations individuals have put themselves into, both from their choices in their past as well as cooperation in the present situations. If you don't want to continually be expected of wrongdoing, don't continually do wrong. There are millions of educated people, whether of different races, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, etc.. that are not oppressed in any way... There is a difference between racism and oppression. Oppression, in my opinion, can be relegated through education of an individual. We need to start with racism, sexism, etc... I am in favor of integrating laws that will be used to expel these acts from our society. You yell a racial slur at another citizen and you are caught on tape. Find the closest officer and get a fine. I don't believe ANY citizen should be subject to ridicule in any form. Freedom of speech has blurred lines which have allowed too many people to go unpunished for abusing others through words. Bullying in any shape should be illegal as it is an assault on the person being bullied. Bullying is not refined to school kids picking on one another, it is anyone that causes distress in another person for the sheer joy or hatred of it. What I don't understand is how we are infringing on peoples freedom of speech if we say they cannot say certain things to other people, yet those that have to endure those words are NOT having any of their rights infringed upon. That's where it needs to start in my opinion.
all i know is i didn't think what kap was doing was right and i got raked over the coals for my beliefs. others on here felt the national anthem was "just a song" and didn't mean all that much. i felt differently about it. i was stunned that any American could think the anthem was "just a song." the 1 thing about the arguments last year about kap was what he was initially fighting for. to me i still think many Americans don't know what it was and got angry at teams and players kneeling during the anthem. i still think that message is lost or misunderstood today. most people don't care about Kap or his message. they care NOW about anyone kneeling during the national anthem.
I think there are a lot of points here that need addressing, but unfortunately I won't have the time to do so until later. I just want to ask, because it's relevant to the discussion: Is anyone discussing this topic not white? If so, say so. I only ask because it's worth considering that the topic of systemic racism is being discussed, and the voices saying "It's not a big deal" are coming from those who aren't suffering from it. I'm not saying that that should determine the conversation, shut it down, etc., but it's worth considering that this situation is being discussed by people who only really get to experience one side of it.
I moved this portion of the discussion here only because Will puts a lot of time in on the 'News and Notes' thread and I would like to keep that thread open for that type of discussion.
Yeah, I apologize - I considered just dropping it for purposes of not derailing the thread. I think it's a worthwhile conversation, but it's also larger than called for on the prior thread. And, to Will - many thanks for the work you do. Honestly, it's where I get most of my NFL news, at this point.
The “war song” gets too much love. The flag? That fucking thing is desecrated all over the place in this country. The Rockaway Beach post office is flying What now appears to be last year’s car wash rag along with a POW/MIA flag that closely resembles Jersey Shore apparel. They make fucking T-shirt’s out the goddamned things. But when a cause for minorities wants air time, during a “tribute to our country”, which by the way, fosters these problems that are the point of the protests, all hell breaks loose. Too bad the NFLs white mega-stars didn’t join in on this... white privilege? Maybe? This pregame ritual is a fucking sham and it is meaningless except to promote the idea that you, too, can sign up to be a federally certified bullet catcher. Advertising. You know what patriotism is? Being just and fair in hopes it makes the country better FOR EVERYONE. The flag and the poem/war song are worthless and only holds as much weight as the beholder. Sorry to repeat that, but it is intrinsically and categorically true. Whatever sentimental bullshit you choose to spread over it is your business. Besides, the dead don’t give two fucks whether you stand, sit or puke during the national anthem. APB: hockeybob... Blackhawks fan. Likes fishing. Maybe be sharing a spider hole bunker with Tim Thomas. Calling all cars...
I have yet to read anything that has stated racism isn't a big deal. And I don't think it is relevant who is and is not of any color. Educating yourself is a need of all people, not just one group.
Well, you did manage to get ONE great statement out of that drivel. I'm glad I kept reading. I think your heart is in the right place here, but I don't think it is on point...Just my opinion.
WTF does kneeling during the National Anthem have to do with getting any point across? If you piss people off you aren’t going to get shit across to them. So come out and kneel before the Anthem, not during it. I guarantee you that people will be more open to hearing WTF they have to say.
