I won't trade Howard , but hope to add a RB that your high on in the late rounds , currently they really only have 2 and that's definitely not enough moving forward.
No I pointed out that his "hands" improved from his rookie season to this past season. A fact you are unwilling to admit to. Trying to duck the tough questions by resorting to this BS. At least Pat is making an educated argument on your behalf. Ok Blang I was wrong. Trading Howard right now for a 3rd round pick would be ONE OF THE WORST TRADES IN BEARS HISTORY. For the record yes it would be a much worse trade than trading a 31 year old Marshall to the Jets for a 5th round pick who happened to turn into Amos who I believe you deemed not worthy of a roster spot last off season. I admit that he doesnt have great hands. I think they can improve further than they already have. I agree with Al that his biggest problem seems to be concentration and not the hand eye coordination it takes to catch footballs at an NFL level. I couldnt disagree more that Howard is a dime a dozen RB and that 100's of other guys could give you what he does. If that were true the Packers and Lions would not have such issues. The Cardinals come to mind as well. If you want to go with a committee than why would you trade him away. You admit your not going to get good value. You will have to pay an older less skilled veteran much more $$$$ than it is going to cost you to keep Howard a home grown talent. You have Cohen and Howard. Bring back Cunningham and use a later round pick on another RB if you must. Maybe you find the next Kamara or Hunt.
I'll admit his hands "improved" in his second season when you admit his targets went down because his hands sucked in the first place. What questions have I ducked? My first post acknowledged that we ran a basic offense with an emphasis on the run game, attempting to fool no defense in the process. To me that doesn't justify why Howard's targets were down (or any of his other shortcomings). Partly it was because we know Cohen is a better receiver and partly because Cunningham was the third down back but mainly because Jordan Howard is simply not a good catcher of the football, something that was obvious to both Loggains and Trubs. I said 100 other guys could pick up a blitz and catch a dump off. You don't agree with that? Howard is not a dime a dozen. He's a solid NFL RB. He's a good north/south runner who can thrive when an o-line wears down a defense over the course of a game. That's his game. He offers nothing as a receiver, little as a dynamic player, no breakaway speed, average ability to punch it in at the goal line or in short-yardage situations. You know all this. But let's stop crowning him a top 3 RB in the NFL. His 2017 was more down than up. Maybe running him out of the gun, and less stuff outside the tackles, sees his numbers return to 2016 levels. Maybe not. I think I see it as a situation where we could cash in additional value on a draft pick or two without huge loss to the position, while keeping him is fine but we potentially lose an opportunity to improve the roster as a whole.
I dont know I think an offensive mind like Nagy might be able to keep defenses off balance even with a RB who might catch closer to 70% of the passes thrown their way as opposed to 80% First off the offense was far from dink and dunk. It was run run oh shit we need 14 yards for a first down what do we do? You are right though Howard should have seen an uptick in receiving stats. I have know idea why Loggains went to a vanilla easy to read offense as opposed to the more spread out shot gun heavy offense he ran in 16. Why is it so hard to fathom that if given more opportunities Howard just might have caught a bunch more passes and maybe even improved on that catch %. Its almost like your blaming the poor offense on Howards inability to catch passes. That if forced Loggains to change to whole scheme. What has gotten lost in this whole debate is that Howards pass catching ability is only one part of why you would trade him. He is a way better runner than you or blang are giving him credit for. You are also ignoring what his skills as a running back bring to the table regardless of how good he is as a receiver. He showed after this season that he needs to be accounted for. That he will bust a big run even on a stacked box. I think his threat as a runner outweighs his need for improvement as a receiver which I feel you and blang are making more of than is necessary. I am not saying he is a great receiving threat but I disagree that he is as useless in the passing game as you guys are making him out to be. Your overreacting to a bad rookie season drop wise.
He caught 29 passes in 2016 and 23 in 2017. That's an improvement? How? He was targeted far less in 2017 because Frodo and Trubisky didn't trust him. Because he has bad hands and is a bad receiver out of the backfield. You really aren't doing your argument any favors by saying "his hands improved" at the beginning of your response on to "I admit he doesn't have great hands" at the end. Again, we're not debating his running ability, yet you keep straw-man arguing back to "well the Lions and Packers' run games are bad because you think Howard is a dime-a-dozen back." That has absolutely nothing to do with what's being discussed. Nobody here said Howard was a dime-a-dozen back, except for you. Please understand that. We're being brutally honest in that Howard is greatly flawed as a pass-catching running back out of the backfield, which does not bode well for him or Matt Nagy's offense, which predicates itself on 2-way tailbacks that can run and catch out of the backfield. You've failed to present the counter-argument outside of "catching percentage" which did increase, yes; you're correct in that respect. His catching percentage increased from 2016 to 2017. But you've failed to explain why his targets went down, especially amid a 2017 season where Kevin White, Cam Meredith, Zach Miller and Markus Wheaton missed extended time with injuries, leaving Josh Bellamy, Dontrelle Inman, Cohen, Cunningham, Shaheen, and Sims as the remaining "playmakers." One would logically conclude Howard's targets and receptions should have increased as a result of the injuries. They didn't. Why is that? Because he's a liability as a pass-catching running back. Is that really that hard to grasp? Or are you just doing that thing where you're intentionally antagonistic for the sake of doing so? Al, you're more optimistic than I and I hope you're right. However, Howard had all of the offseason before the 2017 season to improve his hands. He clearly didn't. I hope he makes it a priority this offseason, but I'm not counting on it when we knew after his rookie season he had to improve that, he knew it, the bears knew it--yet Howard didn't improve.
Rob. That's not being discussed or objected to by blang or me. I've said numerous times on this thread alone what I think of Howard's ability as a running back sans receiving. Don't twist what either of us had said in the name of winning an argument that's not even taking place. We're explicitly focusing on Jordan Howard's pass catching ability, not the other facets of his game running the ball or blocking. You're making good points, why do you have to straw man? And yes, I agree. That his receiving skills are a liability should not be a sole reason why he's traded. This will now be the 3rd time on this thread why I bring up Mark Helfrich and what he did at Oregon while he was a coach there and why I hypothesize he will add that element to Nagy's offense, which is why keeping Jordan Howard is certain, because he's not a back worth giving away for a 3rd round draft pick. Because otherwise I have no idea why Mark Helfrich went from a HC at Oregon to the offensive coordinator (I know, its a place-holding position because he's not calling the plays unless Nagy misses games due to illness or ejection) of the Chicago Bears, with no NFL coaching experience. Unless the Steelers somehow move on from Le'Veon Bell and he hits the market. Then Jordan Howard for a 3rd round pick is "meh." And no, I'm not banking on Le'Veon Bell becoming a free agent unless the Steelers do something incredibly stupid. Frodo was a dunce and didn't scheme or gameplan accordingly. I concur. And I never said that I blame how poor the offense was solely on Howard's inability to catch passes. I blame Pace, who should have had better playmakers than Gentry, McBride, Bellamy, and surrendering a 6th round draft pick for Dontrelle Inman (or is it 7th, did he reach quota for his conditional pick?) I blame Frodo for being a dunce, and I also partially blame Howard. And I blame Fox. I also think that some outcomes of games would change if Howard was a better receiving back.
Saying he was targeted far less in 2017 is a bit of a stretch. I know you hate percentages but he was targeted 2% less this past season. Fact is the Bears as a team were dead last in pass attempts. In neither season was Howard relied on much as a pass catcher. But he did haul in a better percentage of the passes thrown to him. But this argument is getting dumb and I see no point in continuing it. I think Howard can be enough of a pass catching threat to excel in whatever offense Nagy runs. I agree that Loggains doesnt trust Howard as a pass catcher. I doubt Trubisky had the luxury to be so picky with his passes. Did you not read Blangs original post? I mean that is what we are discussing here right? Let me refresh your memeory. All that was good for a 4.1 average per carry, which is fairly... average. Of course the counter argument will be that the playcalling was so predictable (noted by Howard himself) and teams were stacked up in the box to stop him. But really to me it was dependent on how well the o-line opened holes. Against Pittsburgh and Cincy he had gaping holes to run through, any RB would have put up similar or likely better numbers in those games. And both of those defenses knew we'd run the ball all day. When holes were not opened, Howard showed zero ability to make a play on his own. RBs like Howard are replaceable. We found Howard in the 5th round. A look around the league at starting RBs reveals that many came from rounds 3 or later, many who have been to the Pro Bowl. It is well known RB is one of the most replaceable positions in the sport. Guys off the scrap heap can be productive in any given season. Howard doesn't strike me as a guy who will be around in 5-6 years. Get value for him now. He lacks breakaway speed but also the ability to bowl guys over with his size/strength and is an average goal line back. As I mentioned, he's not really a playmaker. When the hole is there, he will hit it well. But the hole has to be there or he is helpless. IMO Howard has elite vision. He sees they hole before it is there. He has great burst through it to the second level. Yes he lacks top end speed but that is about the only weakness to his game. He is plenty strong and can move the pile as well as punch it over the goal line. He played through injury showing toughness. When you take in his age, cost and production I just dont see how any coach worth their salt cant take advantage of a talent like that.
He might not be top three but he definitely is top five. Also, the BEar's offensive line sucked last year and he suffered the most for it. Hopefully this new administration will design an offensive line and an offense in general that can correctly use the talents of the three men in the offensive backfield.
