2016 NFL Draft - The Quarterbacks

Yes I did...RGIII WAS SUCCESSFUL..I have already stated that, I believe twice, yet you keep asking the same question.

He showed that it's possible to be successful. You simply can't push injuries into bigger injuries. Since that first season, everyone has spent all their resources trying to change him. Johnny Manziel, two things here...(1) It's Johnny Football, he has been his own worst enemy, (2) Pettine spent all their resources trying to change him...See a general theme here?

Look, obviously, not every "Read-Option" QB is going to be successful, same as not every drop back QB is successful, actual almost every QB, regardless of their specialty turns out to be not so successful...

RGIII, WAS successful...I'm not sure why we are having this conversation

 

Because you (and I) keep saying we want a LONG TERM solution at Quarterback. While I will agree that RGIII had ONE good year, to say he was successful in the NFL simply isn't true. Hell . . . Derek Anderson had one good year.

 

Yes, we both want a long term solution, but (at least I realize this) there isn't one available at the moment. I would love for there to be one...and again, I think Kirk Cousins "could" be an answer, but I don't believe he will be available.

So, again I ask, do you have a long term answer that we should be discussing instead?

 

Is Cam Newton a 'pocket passer'? Is Russell Wilson a 'pocket passer'. The difference is knowing when to run, how to run, and be within the structure of the play, and when the play breaks down knowing what to do beyond the structure of a play. You need both.

The big question I have is who is coaching these QBs? A GM must be married completely with the coaching staff. Until that question is settled, its just a generic list.

RG3 had a good rookie year, until the injury happened. Then the coaches Washington hired namely Jay Gruden wanted nothing to do with RG3. Wasn't 'his' guy. Every circumstance of why a QB isn't successful is different. The issue with RG3 is he is slow to develop when not to run and how to run. I think he is better in when not to run with the time spent in the NFL.

What I think Irish is trying to say is a team needing a long term answer at QB need not pigeonhole themselves. Talent is hard to come by.

I think Cleveland could draft a QB at #2 and a 'Kirk Cousins' type later in the draft also. So maybe that is where Cardale comes into play.

 

Agreed Q, we won't even be able to think about what players will fit until those questions are answered..I am hoping Hue Jackson gets an offer today and puts the coach to rest. That way we can start to see what his coaching staff, and subsequent GM, will look like.

What I don't like is this draft class, so I would be adamantly against drafting (2) QBs from this class...I don't like any at #2 overall, as I have other players rated MUCH higher than Goff, whom is the only QB I would consider at #2.

 

I'd be much more interested in how the staff fills out below the HC.

From what I understand the Browns won't have a true GM. Sashi Brown and Paul DePodesta will report independently, and directly to Haslam, where he will have to make the final football decision. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

Why would you want to hire your coach before your GM? If they are intending to hire someone else specifically for the GM position, then they should do that before hiring a coach. If not, we're in for another, very similar ride with the Browns.

 

As Irish mentioned, Robert Griffin did succeed at the NFL level. Injuries derailed a very promising start to his career, but for the first time since his phenomenal rookie year, he should be 100% healthy.

Secondly, to your point about read-option quarterbacks: the trick is finding a read-option quarterback at the college level who's overall skill set translates to the NFL game. I don't think anyone believes that a dedicated read-option system is going to work in the NFL. Yes, teams that employ a little bit of it have some success with it (Panthers, Seahawks) but you have to be able to do more than just read-options (San Francisco).

Continuing to discuss Robert Griffin, part of the falling-out between Shannahan and Griffin and the lack of production as a second-year player (besides concussions and lingering knee injuries) was that Griffin wanted to become a drop-back passer and Shannahan still wanted him to be primarily a runner. That should be encouraging! He wanted to ply his trade as a drop-back passer, not as a scrambling QB.

I firmly believe that Griffin has the skill-set to be a successful QB long-term and would love to see that happen in Cleveland if and when we move on from Johnny Manziel.

 

Because we're not going to have a "General Manager". We're going to have a "Director of Player Personnel", who'll effectively be a head scout.

Going down the GM route with Ray Farmer yielded too many conflicts and Jimmy Haslam has setup an organizational structure to avoid that in this next reboot.

 

Adding to what SAS said above Q, Haslem will NOT have the final football decision, Sashi Brown will on the 53 man roster...However, that decision will be strongly based on the GM/Director of Player Personnel's evaluations are ALONG WITH the strong recommendation of the coach. The coach won't have the final say, but he will have a strong voice in the decision..

Paul Depodesta is going to set a strategy for the management team to follow, not have an evaluation role in personnel.

 

Anyone else think that "Director of Player Personnel" role is tailor-made for Peyton Manning?

A guy who, by all accounts, will likely retire and wants to get into an NFL front-office. A well-known friend of the Haslam's who isn't ready for the full-on "General Manager" title but would be terrific as someone identifying the best players and helping cultivate a great scouting department.

Hmm...

 

Actually a pretty damn good idea Sam...

 

Russell Wilson has been pretty damn good Lym.

 

No doubt. I guess it's how you define success...Besides Wilson, I'd say Cam Newton has been pretty good. RG3 was "rookie of the year".... Colin Kaepernick played well enough to sign one of the most lucrative contracts in NFL history. Say what ya want, but he did get to a Super Bowl when he was surrounded with the right people..And those are just a few recent examples..Having outstanding athletic ability is not a negative when evaluating QB's. There does seem to be a lot of folks that think that if you aren't the prototype, 6'5"drop back and stand in the pocket QB, that you can't play. It's a bunch of baloney. I've been battling this for years and years.....The "read option" is just a more effective way of showcasing an individuals true athleticism. The notion that these guys can't succeed in the NFL is absurd IMO....We aren't that far removed from an era where, if you were a black QB , it was automatically assumed that you will have to switch to a different position to make it in the NFL...We can only imagine how many potentially amazing QB's were never even given the opportunity....

Just within the last 20 years or so are we finally seeing what a truly gifted athlete can do at the QB position.....Before then, lets face it, you pretty much had to be white as a requirement for the position...

 

Why, yes he has been. And, he was drafted out of Wisconsin after spending part of his eligibility at NC State. I'm too phuquing lazy to go look at the offensive system NC State ran while he was there but I can tell you for a fact that he was drafted for his play at Wisconsin and Wisconsin ran a pro-style set.

So then he ends up with the Seahawks and runs their offense to a "T". To classify Wilson as a read-option quarterback is insane. Earlier Quew777 said, "The difference is knowing when to run, how to run, and be within the structure of the play, and when the play breaks down knowing what to do beyond the structure of a play." Russell Wilson learned that early and it shows.

The difference between Wilson (and throw in Cam Newton if you want) is that they use their on-field performance to enhance their "brand" (status, reputation, call it want you want) whereas RGIII and Manziel use their "brand" to enhance their on-field performance.

 

Okay. I'm done discussing this as I don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm a racist because I believe that a drop back passer is a better fit in the NFL. That's absolute hogwash. The color of a quarterback's skin has absolutely NOTHING to do with my argument. If it did, how would it explain my distain for Johnny Manziel from the git go?

 

I don't think ANYONE insinuated that Lym...AT ALL....Not even close.

It isn't racism, it's athleticism..you seem to be opposed to.

Just because Wisconsin ran a pro style offense, means nothing. He is now running a form of read option, and succeeding...in the NFL...

RGIII did it the first year, then the Redskins(yes I said it and I am NOT a racist either) went away from it purposely and his career has been sabotaged. I'm not saying run a straight read option, but he has been in the league for 4 years and I am sure he is learning the skills to run a hybrid, the man has great athleticism and a great arm. For the record, I don't believe he will ever be the league MVP...I don't think he has THAT skill set, but at the end of the day, I absolutely believe he has the best skill set of all available QBs. Which is why I would want him on this team.

 

Are there any backup QBs on another team that could start; such as what happened with Buffalo and Tyrod Taylor.

I'm so much more focused on the mental aspect of QB play than physical attributes. If you have a QB that has those mental, (magician, manipulating) aspects, they can play QB. If they don't, play will suffer. That the difference btwn ANY QB that plays no matter the style be it a guy that runs a 4.3 or a 5.3. The question is for in case of RG3 is: has he developed that mental side, and can the Browns help him develop more, not merely just apply a scheme, but develop skills. Maybe unlearn a few things.

My point with Cam/Russell is they learned/know the mental side of the game, its not just athleticism, but how to apply that athleticism, knowing how to mitigate injury etc.

Maybe Kaepernick? http://www.sacbee.com/sports/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/article54471595.html

 

couple things there Q...

(1) In the end, unless they move up to the #1 overall to take Goff, the 49ers may NEED Kaepernick (or the new coach may want him). So a trade may not even be feasible. The other is, what would it take to get him? Remember, the 49ers would essentially have to PAY $7.4M to trade or cut him.

(2) you have to evaluate the draft vs. Kaep's talent/skills. Personally, I don't think I would take him over RGIII, simply because of the reports of his lack of preparation. I don't want that kind of player in this locker room, if the rumors are true.

If he is cut, I would look at him depending on the cost, but I certainly wouldn't trade for his $19M/year salary if he is lazy.

 

Oh for crying out loud. The racist insinuations were not directed at you Lym. I would never do that. Do I really need to explain it? I was just making a point about the history of this league. The "powers that be" running the NFL were the ones to point the finger at....I can't remember the one GM's name, but I believe he was with the Dolphins in the 80's, and he told Ted Koepell on live TV (Nightline) that "blacks don't have the necessary mental capacity for the position". Of course, all the bosses were not that stupid, but that WAS the general feeling. Hell, Warren Moon had to go win 5 Gray Cups before he finally got a shot in the league as a QB. They told him, like they told practically every black QB coming out of school, that he would have to switch positions to make it ion the NFL......