2016 NFL Draft - The Quarterbacks

Joe Montana, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, and that's just a few SB winners off the top of my head that were passed up by every team at the draft at least once...I'm not counting the success stories like Tony Romo. Plenty of those out there too. Good QB's that haven't won it all..You can't throw them all out. I'm just saying, wouldn't it be nice if you could somehow measure a players desire and passion for the game? Leadership? Heart? Clutch decision making? It's not easy....For every great QB picked at the top of the draft, I can find a total bust that was taken in the same spot....Not an exact science, especially in regards to quarterbacks...So much is required from the neck up, and THAT is what is so difficult to gauge. The combine numbers only tell ya so much.

 

Yep, figure that out TD and you will be a millionaire. That's the one thing the tape, combine or the Wonderlic can't do...

There is a new test they implemented in 2013...

This is only it's 4th year in use, and haven't really heard any more about it since then. The scores/evaluations aren't leaked like the Wonderlic are, so I'm not even sure how much it is used by franchises...I wish there was more information on it..

 

Don't get me wrong SAS. I have an appreciation for the numbers too. I'm just a little guarded when it comes to combine numbers in general, and particularly in regards to the QB position...There's just so much more to it than the raw numbers, and I'll say that about every position in football. It really is a lot about tenacity and heart. Pure love for the game. And those things aren't easy to measure....You know all this. We have two recent prime examples of guys that were "AWESOME" at the combine, in Justin Gilbert and Barkevious Mingo....Great athletes for sure, but I'm not sure either one of them are football players.

Obviously the combine numbers are important, but everyone invited is a great athlete....I'm always more interested in what we can't see and hear; the interviews. Especially with the QB's....I'm fairly certain I wouldn't have been nearly as high on Johnny if I'd had the chance to sit down and get to know him....smh

 

Don't be so certain TD on Manziel...

My guess is Lym and bluez would have liked him MUCH better, if they HAD sat down with him in an interview. The kid can talk, that's the problem. Unless you had a PI on him 24/7 (hint hint...do we have them on Goff and Wentz????) there really wouldn't have been any way to know about Manziel. His last public party sighting was before the season at A&M...Then it picked back up the day AFTER we drafted him...hasn't stopped since..

 

I completely know what you mean. That's why I said "get to know him" instead of just "interview him"..I should have been clearer...He's a slick talker, but I can't and don't believe that he can just shut off the partying at will. I think it controls him. He's not just addicted to the booze. If that was the case he could stay home and drink himself into oblivion and avoid the public spectacle. But Johnny is addicted to being "Johnny"...I'm sure these nightclub owners just love him, and he gets to do what he wants whenever he wants..... I thought he was so much brighter than that. It's hard to watch this complete crash and burn because I know what he's capable of on the football field. But he continues to be "Johnny" and is completely oblivious evidently to the fact that this has no staying power. He's gonna be yesterday's news real quick. Will the media be clammoring for his stupid videos after he's out of football a couple years? . Completely naive beyond reason and that's what alcohol (and other things) can do....There HAD to be signs, but you absolutely right Irish. Probably would have had to hire a PI to follow him around. My question is, why didn't they? Or did they? Teams dig like that all the time. The Browns had to have known something about this. Otherwise I gotta believe they would have taken him earlier than #22.... Cleveland couldn't resist a little time in the spotlight. Or should I say Haslam couldn't? He gambled and got burned bad...I don't think the personnel guys ever wanted him, and I know the coach didn't.... But Jimmy writes the checks. And Browns fans got the biggest shit show of a first round QB since Art Schlichter.....Those two asshats should get together...

 

I can't speak for Bluez but - nothing could be further from the truth regarding the bolded part of your quote. If you recall, my objection to Manziel had nothing to do with his apparent affluenza. It had everything to do with my impression that his skill set would not translate to the NFL. And I still maintain that impression today.

 

This is the crux of the entire argument. The Browns have only been in the position to take the best QB in the draft one time in 17 years, despite trotting out 24 or 25 gameday starters.

The Browns simply cannot pass up the opportunity to get a guy who can be a feature piece to build a team around. More than anything else, it would stabilize the position.

I think after Couch (who got roughly four seasons), the next closest Brown was Anderson with almost two seasons worth of starts over three years. We rotate that position around so much and that is part of the continuous problems.

By investing in a guy at No. 2, they can try that route for the next four seasons at a minimum (barring a Manziel-like meltdown or injury issues) and build a team around them to win.

 

agreed on all points SAS....

 

I thought we both agreed there is no franchise QB in this draft? Why force the issue on something that isnt there....if ur looking for a Sam Bradford type of QB instead of a Manning or Roethlisberger they shuld select a QB #2

 

To answer if there's a franchise QB, that is Goff.

As to why you would still force the issue if you weren't sold is because the Browns have not been in this position since 1999 and hopefully won't be there again for a while.

I happen to think Goff is one of the top talents in this class, but even if you aren't sold on him, there's a reason so much weight is put on the QB position. To my earlier point, if you solve the QB position, you can build a complete team around that person.

From a "franchise" QB standpoint, that varies greatly based on who you're talking to and what you're looking for. In my eyes, there's only three or four transformational QB's in the NFL today (Rodgers, Brady, Newton, Russell) and the odds of finding that guy are pretty rare. Then there's the next class of guys who are "elite" at the position, but still require a team around them as well as a few key positions.

 

That's a lot of faith to put into a coaching staff to get someone like Wentz to perform as a top-tier NFL QB. While Hue Jackson has had success with his QBs, none of them really stand out as "elite".

Wentz may have a higher ceiling, but I doubt he ever reaches it because he's starting so far behind a guy like Goff that unless he's drafted to a team who can sit him for 2-3 years, we can throw ceiling out of it.

For starters, Goff possesses elite footwork and pocket presence -- well above all the other prospects and above some players currently in the NFL.

Goff is more accurate as a passer and actually has similar velocity as Wentz. Wentz may have a "stronger arm", but Goff's mechanics keep him throwing well.

He can diagnose defenses and move them with his feet and eyes, something I've never seen Wentz do.

Those are just for starters.

Both are smart, sure. But Goff has played against better competition and put his IQ to the test real-time.

Goff is also two years younger than Wentz. While he may not grow another inch, he certainly can put on some more weight once he gets into an offseason workout program with an NFL strength and conditioning coach.

I cannot see how playing on the best team in a lesser division makes one the better competitor.

People are pretty quick to dismiss the spread, but unlike Wentz's pro style, Goff was responsible for making more calls at the line and adjusting his plays.

And by saying someone has an advantage by playing in the pro-style in college is a non-starter. E.J. Manuel and Christian Ponder were pro-style QBs. Cam Newton came from a scheme so simple that they didn't even had names for the plays, they had numbers.

If running the SEC gauntlet was all it took, Jake Coker would be in the discussion at the top of the draft. Instead, he didn't even get a Combine invite.

 

How these QB debates feel...

 

Why all of a sudden since Hue Jackson is the coach of the Browns is he some QB guru....people used 2 rip Andy Dalton up and down on this board

 

lol! arguably the best post ever....


ya gotta appreciate the SAS wit if ya visit the Browns boards.....well done.

 

Does that mean that Goff is done in this area? If so, he's 10/10 and that's awesome. If not, I would suppose that Goff can actually improve more than Wentz in this area with NFL coaching.

In fact, Goff's great release is what keeps his velocity on his passes. I've said it before, but tape doesn't lie... Wentz may have a "stronger" arm, but Goff's mechanics lead to him throwing better, faster, and stronger footballs right now.

Here's another thing I take umbrage to. Goff may have a lower overall percentage (against much tougher competition) but here's a key detail you've left out:

Goff improved his accuracy every season as a starter. From 60.4 as a true freshman, to 62.1 as a sophomore, and finally 64.5 as a junior when he broke the PAC-10 TD record (held by your boy, Mariota).

Contrast that with Wentz who actually got worse in his senior season (63.7 to 62.5). By the way, both of those numbers are lower than his overall career average which is dramatically skewed due to the obscenely low number of attempts in his career. His higher average is due to 73.9% on his first 46 attempts (which account for a staggering 8% of his career numbers).

And yet he looked better at the Combine than any QB taking the 5- and 7-step drops.

One, I would argue because Goff does a great job pre-snap diagnosing a defense. He doesn't need to go to that third or four read very often because he knows the best spot to attack.

On to Wentz making his progressions which, frankly, in the limited tape I have yet to see, where his third and four options gets into trouble are him trying to force football into coverage at a sub-par competition level. This led to Wentz's 2.3 INT ratio (versus a 1.9 for Goff).

Another disservice to Goff here. Anyone you listen to or read is unanimous in stating that Cal had an awful offensive line. Goff was running for his life, under duress constantly, and still manages to have tremendous pocket presence (mirrored his game after Peyton Manning in his regard) and has not been rattled by it.

And you're continuing to use Wentz's completely sheltered existence as a QB as his defense. You're right that 30 sacks in 35 games isn't much... but change it to drop backs (30 sacks in 612 drops - 4.9%) and compare that to Goff's (81 sacks in 1,568 drops - 5.1%) and the gap closes quickly. Add to that the unanimous assessment Cal's line was crap while Wentz played on the best team in the FCS (safe to assume a better o-line) and it's a non-starter. Moreover, Goff has never missed a snap due to injury.

Definitely not giving Goff enough credit for his smart scrambling. He's no Johnny Manziel, but he's Aaron Rodgers dual-threat enough to pick up big chunks when they're there or to avoid the rush and keep his eyes downfield for the completion.

E.J. Manuel knew pro-style offense. So did Christian Ponder. Derek Carr came from a spread-offense and was drafted behind Teddy Bridgewater who played in a pro-style. The college game, no matter the scheme, is different from the NFL game. That's a learning curve for any quarterback.

I don't even have a response to this. No rookie QB comes into the NFL and is ready to play from Day 1 (even the greats). Goff is exponentially ahead of Wentz from a refinement of skills standpoint. Not only did he do it against better competition, he did it for longer. Goff was the catalyst for the turn-around at Cal while Wentz inhereted a team already firing on all cylinders and one that didn't miss a beat with Wentz out of the lineup.

"Who is Easton Stick", you ask? I'm glad you did.

Easton Stick was Carson's Wentz's backup who took over after an embarrassing loss to South Dakota (snapping a 26-game win streak) and as a freshman, posted eight straight victories.

Not the drop in production you'd expect to see between a "franchise QB" and a true freshman in the FCS sub-division of football.

 

And in R6, we can nab our developmental QB.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/bl...ay-be-the-best-developmental-qb-in-the-draft/

Full disclosure: as an ex-Falcon myself, I love the idea.

 

I'm going to have to create a Myth Buster for poor Jared. Let's call it, "Quit Beatin' Goff".

Quit Beatin' Goff! #1

Besides Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Tony Romo, and Derek Carr who're all under both 6'4" and 215 pounds... here's a QB who showed up to the Combine at a slight 6'4" and 211 pounds:

 

Quit Beatin' Goff! #2

So did Charlie Frye.

No way of knowing that Goff wouldn't have stolen the show if he were a senior. However, he -- at 21 -- is already several years ahead of Wentz -- at 23 -- from a skills refinement standpoint and has more room to grow. Wentz is done physically and also has two more years of bad habits (e.g., his throwing into coverage) to overcome.

 

Damnit SAS, you make a compelling argument. I quit beatin' Goff because I'm worried about size. (laughter) Seriously though....From the eye test;

Goff = Bridgewater

Wentz = Peyton Manning

I'm stealing Irish's comp to Wentz because I think it's dead on. When you watch him play, he looks like a more athletic Peyton Manning. So maybe his game needs a little more refining than Goff. Don't we want the guy with the highest ceiling? I really do like both QB's . To me though, the bigger risk for Cleveland is Goff because of his thin frame. We need that big QB that can sling it through whatever mother nature brings to the lake shore.....Wentz ran a pro style offense in school. He might not be as far behind as people think. Both guys are bright. No character issues. I'm lookin forward to watching the John Gruden QB camp shows. Hell, I could flip flop two or three more times before the end of April....Leanin towards Wentz right now though....No beatin' Goff.

 

Quit Beatin' Goff! #3

I quite literally cannot believe that now two folks have used that analogy.

How little do we forget 1998 when the choice was between the safer and refined skills but "limited" upside in the more polished QB - Manning, versus the incredibly high ceiling of the 6'5" 235 pound Ryan Leaf who boasted more athleticism and a stronger arm and while he may not have played against the same level of competition or had as much experience, could be the greater pro of the two.

Stop me if you've heard those snippets before.

If Goff was 6'4" and 230 pounds (Manning's listed weight), you'd have every single person comparing him as the next coming of Manning. A hard-working, film-watching, cerebral QB who plays 100% of his snaps in the shotgun formation, who has Spiderman-like pocket presence and who's technique and measurables are similar. Goff even mirrored his footwork after Peyton Manning.

If anything, this is 1998 all over again with Goff playing the role of Peyton Manning and Carson Wentz playing the role of a less-prescription-narcotics-addicted Ryan Leaf.