2016 NFL Draft - The Quarterbacks

I must say, we can go over some things that would contradict your thoughts...

Quickness of release. I won't disagree with this, as Goff has an extremely quick release. I don't however think Wentz release is slow in comparison to an average QB. I will give the advantage to Goff at this time, though I think with NFL coaching Wentz can improve fairly fast in this area.

Accuracy...OVERALL accuracy goes to Wentz.. Wentz 64.1%, Goff 62.3%. Now if you want to pick a certain spot on the field, I'm sure you could come up with some stats to show your view to be different than what is obvious, which is Wentz overall completion percentage is higher. Going further leads to the next discussion...

Anticipation and touch...I will disagree on this point...Watching tape, I see MANY more floated balls and balls thrown on the receivers back shoulder from Goff. Wentz isn't perfect by any means, but arguing Goff is wouldn't be accurate. Anticipation, I would give an ever so slight edge to Goff, but I attribute that to the spread offense where he is throwing more timing patters off of a 1 step and 3 step drop.

Progressions...I will also disagree..Although Wentz has gone to his first and second options in most cases, he has shown on film going to 3rd and even 4th reads out of his PRO STYLE offense. Goff has gone off of his first read, but he also doesn't get to a 3rd read very often.

Pocket Presence. Now, I will say Goff is a pretty cool cucumber in the pocket...He shows poise in standing in and delivering a ball...However, as far as presence is concerned his 81 sacks in 37 games (2.2 sacks per game) is distant to Wentz' 30 sacks in 35 games (.86 sacks per game) will show he doesn't necessarily have superior pocket presence. I will say Wentz takes off running way too early and will need to rectify that, but Goff's statuesque form, doesn't always relate to pocket presence. He has poise, but knowing where and when to move is different than merely staying in the pocket. This from a spread offense designed to get the ball out of his hands quickly on nearly every pass play.



That doesn't even take into account, Goff will be needing to learn a Pro Style offense, where Wentz has been playing in one for 4 years of college football. THAT is a pretty big thing he will need to learn, imho.



I don't think any QB in this draft is NFL ready...including Goff...I also don't believe Wentz is any further behind Goff, as people are saying, merely because of the speed of the game. He came into a faster speed situation at the Senior Bowl and it didn't effect him in the slightest. Who is to say, the next level will? It very well may, but there are no indicators at this point that is the case.

 

My thoughts are based off of my own research and contradiction is not something foreign to me. I disagree with a lot of your assessment but as I pointed out earlier, we rarely agree when it comes to quarterbacks.

The 'floated balls' that you have repeatedly commented on simply do not show up on film for me the way they do for you so we will have to agree to disagree on this point.

The same with anticipation, accuracy, pocket presence and progressions as I see a sizable difference between the two (I understand your reference to stats but they do not always paint a clear picture).

We can go back and forth forever (our opinions are clear at this point) but I'm just going to state for future reference that I see a more NFL ready quarterback in Goff for the reasons that I have stated earlier in this thread.

As always we can come back and review it in a couple years to see how things are shaping up.

 

The drawback with Goff IMO (besides the little hands) is just his his build in general. I can see him getting snapped in half in the AFCN...I felt the same way about Bridgewater. He just doesn't look big enough to handle the physicality...

....The ball comes out of Wentz's hand with more authority. He's about 30 pounds heavier than Goff and he just has the higher ceiling. Goff is good, and he might be more ready to go right now, but I'd prefer to see the Browns roll the dice with the small school kid. That's really the only drawback I've seen with Carson Wentz, and he showed that he's not out of his league with the bigger school guys....Flacco won a SB. Steve McNair came within 1 yard of winning one. I'm not so worried about the small school thing anymore....It can be done.

 

It's a legitimate concern but one that should be tempered IMO. He handled getting hit pretty well at the college level and he has the type of frame that he can add weight to. Whether or not he does is the question.

The small school question is part of the equation but I don't see it as an 'end-all-be-all' with Wentz. It's like the hand size question with Goff. Wentz can play the game physically. Whether or not he can adapt is a question mark but not big enough to keep him from going top 5.

 

Irish,

Let's look at this from a different angle and take the conversation in another direction.

Let's say that the Browns pass on a quarterback at #2 and are looking for another option starting in round 2.

Which quarterback do you think they should target (assuming Goff, Wentz, Lynch and possibly Cook are off the board) and when should Cleveland pull the trigger?

 

I'll give you a couple hints......

He's from Cleveland and he won a National Championship for The Ohio State Buckeyes.....

 

Tim, do you really believe there's a possibility that the Browns DON'T take a QB at #2?

There's just no way....They can't get cute....There's nothing behind McCown.

The Browns have shocked me before, but I can't imagine anything other than QB in rd 1 for Cleveland....

 

I think in the draft anything is possible, but I would be surprised if they passed on a quarterback to start their weekend off.

I'm just looking to keep a good conversation going with Irish and everyone else with an opinion on the quarterbacks in this class.

 

If the Browns pick anything BUT a quarterback in Rd 1, I will personally show R2D2 the door.

 

I agree with TD on this one..I would take Cardale Jones in the 3rd, then turn around and take Kevin Hogan in the 4th to back him up...

Try to keep McCown healthy for 2 years and hope like hell, Jones intellect is enough to use that natural ability of his.

If not, the Hogan's intellect will be enough to tide us over until the next QB opportunity comes along. I don't think Hogan will ever be anything more than a Brian Hoyer/Josh McCown type though.

Cardale Jones may have the highest ceiling...like, ever...but I just can't figure out his football intelligence. He was in the wrong system in college, and I simply can't tell if he can figure out defenses and or adapt accordingly. It will be fun to watch him develop though.

 

Interesting...

After Wentz and Goff, what do your rankings look like?

 

That's difficult because I don't really trust anyone after Wentz and Goff, but I would definitely put Paxton Lynch 3rd behind those two...I actually think Wentz is a the clear #1 and Goff and Lynch are closer together than Goff and Wentz..

Then based on Physical attributes, I would put Cardale 4th
Based on actual QB ability I would put Connor Cook 4th
Based on expected output at the next level, I would trust Hogan as the #4..

But, If Jones Football IQ isn't very large, he could end up never getting a start in his career and be looking for something else to do within 3 years.

If Connor Cook's work ethic and attitude are what I think they are, he could have 3 bridges burned in the NFL within 5-6 years.

I simply don't think Hogan's arm is good enough to do much more than hold down the fort for HIS starting QB in any given year..

Quite honestly after that, I don't see much of anything. I will be surprised if Hackenberg doesn't end his career with more INTs than TDs...Shocked actually

 

The only way that I could see the possibility of Cleveland passing on QB in the first round, would be if they signed someone in free agency or acquired a veteran via trade, before the draft....Robert Griffin is likely to get cut, but I haven't seen anything that would indicate the Browns are interested. The Skins said they would be willing to take a 7th rounder, but I'm not sure if they are getting any takers...

People act like the Browns draft a QB in the top 10 every other year, but they actually haven't picked one that high since Tim Couch. They gotta go quarterback in the first round. Let's just hope they don't maneuver back to pick #22 to do it. The city might burn.....

 

I know the Kapernick rumors were bunk, but one thing I found interesting about the situation was Tony Grossi's reaction. He said something to the affect of not needing a young tatoo'd person to represent the team or the city. Not that I want the struggling QB, but that's a bit of an ad hom., its a game, and last I checked a tattoo doesn't infringe upon ones ability to throw a football. His opinion on QBs doesn't mean anything (he's admitted that he doesn't watch tape), but this bothered me a little. It might be why he doesn't like Wentz as much as Goff, he has visible ink.

 

Grossi does just enough to do his job...like many "sports reporters"...I love sports, but most of those who write about them are those that can't write actual articles, thus can't get a job as a real reporter. They are the "family screw up" that you have to put up with in order to follow you favorite team. Every now and then you actually find something out.

There are some great analysts out, mostly young guys wanting to break into the business. They are diamonds in the rough. Once these guys make a name for themselves, life takes over and they become too busy to actually form an original thought. Most of what we see is regurgitated babble that each of these guys try to form into opinions...but most of it isn't an opinion at all, but someone else's mangled piece of info picked up from other guys who are also too busy to figure it out on their own.

Now, we finally start getting some "leaked" info from actual scouts who did their job, and the guys that actually have connections start writing opinions based on that instead of hearsay and what not.

None of these guys have time to actually watch film and attempt to decipher what it means. Many of them have never played a single down of football.

Then there is the other end of the spectrum, where athletes turn their celebrity into a job after their playing days and I think they actually believe they are good "analysts". The bias is so thick, they can never actually be what a good analyst is, unbiased...you though I was actually going somewhere there, didn't you?

Adam Schefter at one time was actually a good reporter, as was Adam Brandt...both worked their butts off to work sources and bring a bit of the behind the scenes to the fans. It doesn't take long though until they get a taste of celebrity and when they can't find something to get their name in lights, they simply start speculating and "reporting" it like it is factual hoping that it comes to light, making them look like they are at the top of the game. It has become comical.


Back to Grossi, if he thinks ink is bad for the team, then we will never have a team worth fielding. Tats have been the rage for better than a decade now...almost all players have them. To judge based on that is ignorant. He is very opinionated, but those opinions are mostly baseless.



OK, rant over...

 

Who's the media talking you into?

Spoiler

 

Not sure how strongly Grossi was for it, but he's repeated a number of rumors about the Browns trading for A.J. McCarron -- all the way back to his drafting, in fact.

I believe he's tweeted at the very least indifferently (e.g., "couldn't be worse") when asked about McCarron joining the Browns.

 

Since I am, admittedly, in the guy's corner, I saw a flawless Combine performance. I had to read what others were writing and I only found one analyst who thought Wentz performed better.

Rob Rang was almost obscene in his praise of Goff's performance.

Goff showed better accuracy, anticipation, and velocity than Wentz. Plain and simple. Goff's already one or two seasons ahead of Wentz.

If this is the only concern about Goff, then you've got a certified Top 10 pick. Mention that he's a quarterback, and you've got a guaranteed first overall selection. I am flummoxed at all the dickering about hand size.

Wentz looked like the only other QB in discussion for a first round pick, no question. He is no where near as polished as Goff and while everyone will shout "potential" from the mountain tops, he's starting much further behind the eight ball than Goff.

Personally, I'd take a guy who's halfway there because Wentz's growth is going to take such a long time the Browns may never realize his true "potential".

I seem to remember Blaine Gabbert (Mike Mayock's favorite QB in 2011 -- Wentz is his favorite this year) being all about "potential" and that "ideal QB frame".

Gabbert and Wentz are almost the same prospect.

 

Throw Tom Brady's numbers up there for comparison.....It's far from an exact science, especially in regards to QB's... You can't tell everything about QB's by looking at the combine numbers. How do you gauge leadership and desire? You can't.

 

Tom Brady has to be removed from any and all analysis because he's such an anomaly. No other sixth round pick has had the success he's had. Throw in the relentless cheating by the organization and you murky the waters even further.

And Tom Brady wasn't exactly an unknown, he had two years of game film and was third all-time in Michigan passing records.