2017 Raven's Season Wrap Up Discussion

Well, I saw a whole bunch of good discussion starting to flow in the Bengals game thread so I thought it would be nice to put up a thread to have an open discussion about our opinions and wishes for the Ravens as the offseason has been unceremoniously thrust upon us.

I will start with a few items (some of these have been mentioned in other posts but I liked them as well)

I think the back up linemen were revealed in this season long shuffle of replacements and I was actually pleasantly surprised at the result. I actually expected a train wreck in this department but it was not too bad overall.

I liked Alex Collins and I actually think he could be a nice featured back. Maybe not a 25 carry a game guy. but perhaps a 15-18 carry a game guy with a back to spell him. I did not despise the Buck Allen- Collins tandem.

Our receivers are now and continue to be hot garbage. I still cannot fathom the odds against the fact that the Ravens cannot even luck into a good solid usable receiver. The retreads we have on the team are perhaps serviceable, but none of them really move the needle as far as playmaker is concerned.

Our tight ends are also going down hill fast. Boyle was ok, Watson is like 100 years old and Maxx just may never be the talent he was evaluated to be. Crockett Gilmore may be the best bet we have at this position.

I am glad Pees is retiring. I know he put together some decent defensive numbers overall when the season is all said and done, but it seems to me that he could never scheme his way out of a wet paper bag and was only any good when he had outstanding talent to take over and just make plays because they were good. If I look back, the biggest complaint I have is that when we needed to get a single stop in critical games, he could never pull it off. The games that come to mind are the games against Pittsburgh last season (Christmas night I think?) and this past weekends Bengals game. The offense drives the field to put us ahead and all we need the defense to do it get one stop at the end of a game and they cut through us like a hot knife through butter and score only to leave us fumbling around with 20 some seconds to look like a monkey humping a doorknob.

I can now think of the Bears game as well that fits this same bill. I am tired of Pees' defenses being "stat" compilers but failing when we need them the most. Maybe that is unfair and it is the sting of this last weekend's loss, but perhaps that is whey he was released by the Patriots? I don't know, I feel like I am just complaining for the sake of complaining about him now.

There are certainly more items to discuss and I don't have to have them all in this single post but fire away.

 

Ok, I'm just going to copy and paste my post from the other thread into this one:

 

I will add that I'm changing my mind again on Pagano, but I have good reason (in my mind). The main one being that he had similar players to the ones we have no, talent wise. Weddle is no Reed, but Jefferson is definitely a Pollard clone, minus the ability to get personal fouls. Mosely can be compared to an old, broken down, 2011 Ray Lewis. The player that really made me change my mind was Pernell McPhee. In his rookie season of 2011, McPhee racked up 6 sacks as a raw 5th round rookie. He wasn't asked to drop into coverage or set the edge, just get pressure. No reason Tim Williams can't be used in the same light.

Thinking about it more, there were other players that actually looked very good in their one season with Pagano that never looked as good before or after him. The first being Terrence Cody. If Pagano can scheme things enough to not make Cody's fat ass a liability, he might be able to make B.Williams actually worth his contract. Then there's Webb and the 2011 secondary. Let's be honest, Webb has never looked as good as he did in 2011. Not before, not after. Cary Williams looked better in 2011 than any other point in his career. I'd love to see Pagano work with Jimmy, Humphrey, Young, Canady, and even Carr (since he probably wouldn't leave him on islands against a team's #1), while also seeing him use the pass rush that "could" be generated by Suggs, Judon, Bowser, and Williams.

Yeah, I'm back on the Pagano bandwagon.

 

I know we've been "butting heads" about this all season, but here's my reasoning:

1) The Ravens want to get back to running the football. As you mentioned, Collins is probably a good 2nd back (not featured) who would do well getting 15-20 touches per game.

2) Dixon - Like Waller, his status is up in the air.

3) Allen - I like his style, but let's face it. He's not a feature back, nor would he be a #2 back on many teams.

4) You mention a Kubiak style offense. Unless they get Kubiak or Shanahan, the chances of running a Kubiak style offense are slim. The chances of getting Kubiak or Shanahan are less than slim.

5) While I would normally agree with drafting a RB in the 1st or 2nd, the top 3 to 5 RB's are worth those picks. I am so tired of hearing, "It's a passing league". If you notice, the best passing teams usually have a solid run game. They compliment each other. Joe has always been best when he can run the offense off the play action. We all saw in the both the Browns and Bengals games that if the run game gets stuffed, then there is no play action, thus the Ravens have to depend on Joe to pass them to victory. He can do it against poor defensive teams, but in the end depending on Joe to win the game is probably not that great an idea. Yes, getting Joe better receivers would go a long way in improving the offense, but without a running game, the D can just drop back. Plus Joe is so predictable in most passing downs. A RB like Barkley, Love, or Chubb combined with Collins, would open up the run game and play action which will open up the passing game, especially the deep passing game. These three backs are explosive, powerful, 3-down, Leveon Bell/Leonard Fournette type backs (not saying they will ever be as good, just using them to compare). I don't know anyone who would ever compare Collins, Allen, or Dixon to Bell or Fournette.

6) As mentioned in every blog, report,Tweet, etc. the Ravens need play makers on offense. One needs to be WR, either through the draft or FA. The other, IMHO, is a feature RB.

 

Jazz, I guess I'm just not that big on spending high draft capital on RBs. The main reason is, we have front office that puts no value on offense. They'll likely only focus on improving one element. I'd rather see a 1st or 2nd round rookie WR with Collins/Allen/Dixon at RB than a 1st or 2nd round rookie RB with Wallace/Perriman/Moore at WR.

Now if they go out and make my dreams of Robinson/Lee/Moncrief come true, I won't care what else they do in the draft.

Besides, no Rb is really getting that much more than 15-20 touches a game anyway. Not these days. To use the examples you mentioned, Bell averaged 21.4 carries per game and Fournette 20.6. Elliot is the only other RB to average over 20 per game. Every other top back was in that 15-20 range. Hunt (#1 rusher), Gurley (#2) McCoy (#4), Ingram, Howard, etc all averaged that 15-20 range. It really is a passing league. If he'd have gotten those 15-20 carries from week 1, Collins is a top 5 rusher in the NFL (going by projecting his averages) and I don't see a rookie coming in and out doing that. I do see rookie WRs easily outplaying Perriman and Maclin though.

But there's nothing wrong with disagreeing on a topic

 

Thanks RR, I saw you had just invested significant time in posting all that on the other thread, so I appreciate you being willing to bring it here.

 

4) You mention a Kubiak style offense. Unless they get Kubiak or Shanahan, the chances of running a Kubiak style offense are slim. The chances of getting Kubiak or Shanahan are less than slim.

Here is where I disagree. I think there are many bright and brilliant young minds out there that we could tap into to become the next offensive guru. McVey is the one I point to. If we keep grabbing retreads who run 20+ year old offensive schemes then yes, we will not get anything new. I think there are potential coordinators there that would do our offense a world of good. The problem is that Harbaugh is so mired in the nepotistic practices of his friends and family we are not likely to get any fresh perspective and blood while he is here.

I also like the Pagano potential. I think he DOES know how to maximize a players skillset and potential so the thought of him getting in here and working with the sheer amount of talent we have is exciting.

What are the thoughts on Dom Capers as DC? I know GB has had poor defenses for the last few years but he seems to be one that has very solid schemes and does not shy away from the blitz and being aggressive.

 

Totally agree with this and have mentioned it more than once over the past few years. But, how many of them run Kubiak style offenses?

No. Like Pees I think it's time for Capers to retire. He'd be another retread running a 20 year old defense.

 

Nothing wrong at all. And, we've been very cordial about it.

 

And since some of us will likely be back on our yearly hope the organization drafts a decent WR, I wonder what the odds are of Calvin Ridley falling to 16. Ozzie loves Alabama guys right.....

 

This will be controversial but I just watched the replay on NFL Network I've never seen a QB more disinterested in a 1st down than Flacco on that last series. It looked like a guy that was completely satisfied with walking off that field knowing he wouldn't have another meaningful practice for 7 months. 136M and 4 kids later his heart is just not in the game of football.

 

It depends on how the stock value rises and falls in the 1st round. He's now looking like the #1 receiver on some mocks, but Sutton could climb if he has a good Combine and Pro Day. There are others too, so that we might have yet heard of that will climb.

 

I will admit to having only perused the comments above but here are my thoughts:

Joe is no longer a quarterback capable of leading this team without a modicum of talent around him. My problem is Joe doesn't seem to trust receivers to go into their breaks when they should, so he holds on to the ball too long. And when he does throw it short it is too often off target.

Joe seems incapable of reading the defense. Even when he has time to throw the ball he is more often than not checking down, why?

With that said, he has no quality receivers with, IMO, the exception of Michael Campanero, who, more consistently than any other receiver they have, catches the ball more often than not. The receivers on this team do not have the attitude that, when the ball is in the air, it's his and no one elses. They just don't fight for it or work to go get it. I was happy to see them give Chris Moore the opportunity and he seemed to make the most of it. I'd like to see them give other receivers they sign more of an opportunity; Ayanbadejo in particular. I was impressed with his ability in the preseason, but how he would be against the #1's is anyone's guess. Until they start allowing them to show their abilities in a game situation, they'll just continue to assume they're not good enough. Stop signing aging veterans with a good history.

For what its worth, I heard one of the talking heads on the radio opine that these coaches don't put the players in a position to succeed because they aren't utilizing the skill sets they have, trying instead to "insert a round peg into a square hole" so to speak. They brought up Tony Jefferson as an example; a great run stuffer and hard hitter, but not a coverage guy, being forced into a defensive scheme that doesn't suit his talents.

The defense, while apparently talented, doesn't seem to communicate well, particularly in the secondary. I do think a lot of this comes back to coaching or schemes.

I think the biggest needs in the offseason are WR, ILB, TE and RT, in that order. A quality backup QB grooming for the starting job would be nice. I'd like to see them re-sign Jensen, who I thought performed well and grew nicely into the starting center job. If Alex Smith can come back healthy and stay healthy; if Yanda can return to form for another year the O-line will be better, especially with the experienced backups they may have (assuming they re-sign Jensen and Hurst, who played pretty well at guard)

The draft the last few years has only accounted for four or five guys who have contributed, Mosley, Williams, Stanley and Humphrey jump out. Lewis hasn't stayed healthy and the jury is still out on Nico Siragusa and Tim White since both were on IR this year. Kafusi and Correa, IMHO, have been ill-spent picks.

If the lack of quality draft picks continues, you have to look at Ozzie and DeCosta.

Harbaugh returning for the last remaining year of his contract, and retaining Mornhinweg makes sense, despite the fact that I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling about it. If Harbaugh is going to sink in his last year, he might as we;; have Mornhinweg go down with him.

 

Personally, I'd like to see Ozzie be a little less enamored with Alabama guys and start using the entire college football landscape.

 

Ben Watson says he's considering retirement. Seeing how he was Joe's most reliable target TE might be targeted in a FA or the draft higher now.

 

Ravens promoted "Wink" to DC. I can't believe they couldn't get Pagano or Fangio

 

Doesn't surprise me. Chuck is still owed money from the Colts. Unless the Ravens blew him away with an offer, he probably just want to sit back and relax for a year. Fangio is hoping for a HC job. He also has the Bears and Packers in a bidding war for him to be their DC.

I guess the new Defense slogan will be "The Joker's Wild".

 

http://www.tbs.com/shows/snoop-dogg-presents-the-jokers-wild

 

Wink also did Joker's Wild, but this is the one I was thinking of. Gambit. Either one a good name for the Ravens Defense.