I just want to say it's great to have some spirited debate again, even if it does feel like fucking 2007 all over again. I think maybe we disagree on what "all-in" means. I think they are fine with him starting for now as they have no other options, and they aren't looking to replace him and you're right, it was system/scheme changes with a pile of crap for a supporting cast, and he thought the O-line would be better. Which as an O-line guy, is a sure indictment of Poles in this early tenure, but that doesn't mean he's worth giving up on yet either. I agree they aren't dumping Fields after this year, and I'm not convinced short of him continuing to play this badly they don't play him a minimum of another year. I mean, he's going to have to get at least somewhat better, right? Just quoting this so it's repeated again. The burden of proof is on these assholes. The record was never going to be good this year, but the eye test isn't passing for key areas. Take a look at the Lions. The fucking Lions! No pundit, fans or anyone is shitting on them, because despite the terrrible record and terrible defense, they are seeing progress. There's no organization more shitty and dysfunctional than the Lions and people are talking about them like media darlings. I do want to dogpile on the Mustipher hate. I didn't like him last year, and this year he pulled a Fields and went the opposite direction. He is now in the Hall of Shame of Bears Legendary (for the wrong reasons) linemen. Omiyale and Webb are in good company with this joker. I don't know that much about line play, but holy hell is it painful to watch him - he stands out big time. With Whitehair now on IR, he's fucking staying too: Roster Moves: Bears put Cody Whitehair on IR, designate N’Keal Harry to return "When Whitehair was injured against the Giants, he was replaced by Lucas Patrick at left guard, with Teven Jenkins playing right guard. Eberflus indicated Monday that the Bears would stick with that alignment moving forward." I think this is the argument yes. I'm not as convinced of it maybe as others are, but I think there's also no argument that Fields has been ass, it's just how much of it is his fault, and how much his supporting cast. I feel like this is a debate as old as football itself (or maybe at least since the forward pass). Fields has not been thrown into a good situation, sure. But if he were truly elite, he would have risen above it. Other, mediocre QBs (with less raw talent) have put up better stat lines with talent deficiencies. Ev, it seems like the crux of your argument is that the talent level for OL/WR, together, is the absolute worst in the league, thus there is no comparison to other QBs? While they might be the worst, comparing to other QBs is still possible.
I expect to get a lot of shit for this answer, but Jay Cutler in 2014. 3812 yards passing(over 4000 before the sack yards offset), 66% completion percentage, 28 passing TDs. 89 passer rating—2nd highest during his time with the bears (not QBR). He was top half in the league, albeit 13th in passing yards. Hit me with ‘bUt ShItWaD hAd 18 INTs.’ Hit me with it being the year Trestman lost the locker room and his job. I’d kill for Justin to come close to these numbers, wouldn’t you? Is he even on pace for half that playing 17 regular season games instead of 16? For me its what the team does to get to the next level up, which is why we’re stuck in a fucking clown vortex because they aren’t going forward, just backwards, and this rebuild looks like the one before the last one which looked like the one before that which looked like the one before that. The bears could have spent prime resources on offense to help Fields, the way teams have with their young qbs. Fields still has to make plays, but the prime resources went to defense. So far, Poles deserves no benefit of the doubt. The shitshows here to stay for 13 more games before Poles gets an off-season with prime assets and tons of cash.
Yeah let's revisit the old Shitwad debates while we're at it. Why not? From what I recall a lot of his production came in 4th quarter of blowout Bears losses. But he struggled mightily to move the offense in the first half of those games. To answer your question though, yeah I'd definitely kill for those numbers from Fields.
Statistically it was a good year. Especially for a Bears QB. But there were 15 QBs in football that were better than him that year.
https://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/chicago-bears/leaders/season-passing-yards - Kramer still has him beat. What's sadder is that those are the pinnacle of passing offense for this team. But yes, I would take Justin getting anywhere near those numbers. I'll also put the chance of that happening at near zero in the next two years at least. I'm a little torn on it, because they did decide to change defensive schemes and had to unload the big contracts, and we were low on draft captial as well. The button had to be pressed, so BPA does make some kind of sense. But it doesn't prioritize Fields development at all, and there is a non-zero chance it hurts his development long term. Changing defensive schemes at the same time we try to build up the offense is hard to do, but for that to all pay off, Eberflus has to be the right guy because we are banking on it hard. Too early to say, but as Ev points out, there are questions about him already too.
13th in passing yards. 11th in TDs on the year. 13th in 1st downs. He threw 1 more INT than drew Brees, 2 more than Luck, and 3 more than Peyton Manning while yes—being tied for the most with Phillip Rivers. I’m not saying he’s top 5-7-10, but in the 11-15 range statistically is where he belongs, which I think meets your criteria as ‘statistically compared to his peers’ but it’s in the eye of the beholder. 15 qbs better than him? Not sure about that in 2014. 10 definitely. It’s not rehashing, it’s a valid point based on BWWs criteria of qbs statistically compared to others at the position that year. I know as well as any that the bears are kings in garbage time, but it’s disingenuous to chalk up the best statistical year the bears have ever seen at QB to ‘garbage time,’ especially when Mel Tucker ran the 31st worst defense in the nfl.
I'll take Eric Kramer 95 and even Rex 06 over 2014 Cutler. At least both of those QBs had playoffs on the line the whole season (95 Bears lost out on a tiebreaker in the final game of the year), and neither had the weaponry around him that Cutler had.
So the post you just quoted came AFTER the post i quoted(see bolded) and AFTER i posited the original question. Already in this post you've quoted the goal posts have started being moved. Daniel Jones running the ball has no more to do with this debate than if i'd started using Fields running ability as a reason why he's good in the passing game. Its completely irrelevant. Also, if i had said something like that you would've completely lost your shit at me for making "excuses" which is why its hilarious that you're using this now thinking you're somehow backing up bww's point. A point that isnt remotely part of this debate. Re Mills i've already made it very clear he is playing behind a comfortably better O-Line than Fields(which also feeds into MY original point). We were able to view this directly in the Texans game which is what makes what you and bww are trying to argue so utterly fucking dumb. Unless you think having a multiple pro bowler and someone graded in the top3 in his position league wide this season covering your blind side doesn't matter. Cos i thought LT was meant to be considered by some as the 2nd most important position on a football field. Does it matter that their C gave up like 1 pressure in that game and ours gave up 7? Or that as a unit the Bears OL gave up 4x more pressure in that gave than the Texans did? Does any of that matter blang. Does it matter that Mills had a clean pocket and time to throw almost the entire game and Fields didn't, could that maybe factor in to Mills having better stats that day! I can do this all day. Im laying down numbers and facts to back up what im saying. You've got nothing other than cherry picked half thoughts and names from bygone years that someone else thought of. QBs all over the league are doing more with the same talent around them or even less. We're gonna keep coming back to this because this is where it started. This is what the debate is about, not whatever else you and bww try to move it into. Dude if wanted to take a victory lap on the Jets i could do it right now, cos this part is done, you just don't know it yet. The Jets moves have been made, they've put talent all around the QB, its completely undeniable. Compared to the Bears they are loaded at WR and stacked at O-Line. You just don't want to admit it cos you're too busy trying to argue with me. NINE 1st or 2nd rounders & high priced FA's at OL & WR in the last 3 offseasons. 6 in the last 2. THREE separate receivers with as many or more catches than our entire WR room. You want more? Was Joe Flacco's 300yard 4TD game in week 3 because everyone got it wrong about Flacco the backup and he's really an elite QB in the league? Is his 900yards passing thru 3 weeks because he's just that good and we all forgot about him? Or is it that he walked into the huddle and found a shit ton of talent looking at him. Seriously please stop talking about the Jets. Every time you do you look a little worse. We don't need the CBS threads, thats all true i remember it well. But that was a long time ago and this team has ground you down significantly since then. You used to give QB more than a rookie season's worth of games before throwing them to the wolves. They've never gonna have a legit QB if they don't develop them. You can't just keep shitcanning QB's after 5 minutes it doesn't work that way. Willie Beamon is a fictional character, you dont just come in and start lighting it up your 2nd game*. * Even Beamon had Sanderson, the greatest receiver who ever lived. Also had McKenna too until the damn injury. Ah the injury, that screwup cost them McKenna for the season.
The got my point exactly as it pertains to the Jets. The part i bolded is worth talking about as well. Because in reality, while you're right these two things can be true and are, i would go as far as to say 4 things can be true at the same time. Fields has been screwing up, the OL & WR positions are malpractice. Also the OC is horrible at his job and isnt helping anybody. And the HC coaching scared is, imo, having a negative effect on everybody. I left out the OC angle previously re bww's original statement because limiting it to WR/OL made the debate simpler(fucking LOL). But yes ultimately what we have here is a quadfecta(is that a word?) of fuckery like only the Bears can produce. Also makes it even dumber to just lump everything on Fields. No, but you did state pretty clearly that you view the Jets talent level at WR as being bad, thus putting them on a level with the Texans, and by extension the Bears. When you said this vvvvvv Jets have very little talent at the skill positions and ditto Texans The Jets talent level at WR is superior to both the Texan and the Bears and its not even close. Interesing that you have no problem agreeing with that when pat says it, but when i did at the start of all this i was apparently making excuses which i would eventually tire of. Very interesting.
Oh get out of here with this goal post moving crap ha. No one is talking about anything to do with this. Have you seen anyone talking about Fields running "within the framework of the offense". No, because its totally irrelevant. None of us ever talk about Fields running because its just accepted that its a real asset of his. We're talking about Fields play in the passing game which is what we should be cos its where the problem lies and its ultimately whats gonna decide his career path. When you were talking about QB's on other teams in years gone by that have outplayed Fields were you talking about their running or their throwing? Exactly. Likewise Kramer and any other Bears QB one cares to mention? Exactly. That is one of the most obvious and lame deflections ive ever seen you make, but i LOVE that you did it one breath and then accused me of not being able to stay on point in the next. Ha, classic. In terms of the Texans, simply that Mills enjoys much better pass protection than Fields and that will do whatever degree have an effect on production. In terms of the rest of the league simply that not other QB this season is in a worse sport as it pertains to WR & OL play around them. Its not a hard point to figure out, yet you seem to be finding it difficult. You're asking me to prove something i've never disagreed with you on. There's no disputing your point about Bears QB's, but its also not very relevant to what was being debated(remember what we just discussed about staying on point?). I asked you to give me names for this season and because you couldn't you cited 2021 instead. You then went further back and cited 2020. Without me saying anything about other years or even mentioning previous Bears QB's you then reeled off Kramer and had a mini rant. And thats all great. fwiw i think Minshew was a good example in isolation, but its also not relevant to Fields in this case cos Minshew isnt with the Jags anymore. If he's not there now then how can he, like other QBs apparently all around the league, be doing more with less than Fields is doing? He can't . By having to delve into years gone by for examples because you've got nothing this season you also re-enforce MY point. No one THIS SEASON has it as bad as Fields at WR & OL, the 2 most influential positions on a field for a QB in the passing game. In terms of Texans receivers i mentioned 1 name. In terms of other teams i ref'd multiple names. You're just excluding those cos they fuel my case which you seem to disagree with. But yes, generally speaking having a really good positional player on your offense can help your QB be better. Incredible isnt it.
The part i bolded is the crux of my argument as it pertains to criticism of Fields. I never said there's no comparison to other QB's. Actually i haven't been talking about other specific QB's at all off my own back because im the one staying on point and keeping it about Fields, Bears WR's/OL's. BWW is the one who brought up comparisons with other QB's when he said this below, which is patently false. Blang then joined in cos he didn't like the hate not being solely about Fields. QBs all over the league are doing more with the same talent around them or even less. Im interested in Fields. If and when he's bad, which he has been, if the WR/OL have also been bad then as well as him im gonna talk about them too. That will take place whenever it happens this season and im on a message board. Its not gonna stop so people better get used to it.
Not usually much for twitter unless its up to the minute updates about invading Russians getting their asses kicked, but came across a couple interesting tweets. First one is absolutely horrific and pretty much checkmates all the BS i was wading thru in the last few posts.
Jenkins taking names. The play at 30secs where he removes the LB from the field. It is very borderline? Yep. Do i love it? Yep.
The line of we're-not-allowed-to-even-think-to-compare-him-to-other-QBs-because-no-one-else-has-had-to-deal-with-more-shit-than-Fields is next level stubborn bullshit, Ev. I throw them to the wolves when I've seen enough. Sometimes that's 1 game (Todd Collins). Sometimes that's 1+ season (Fields). Sometimes that's 5 seasons (Cutler). I did (do) agree that Fields has a shit situation. You've been far more vocal than Pat the last couple weeks in suggesting that most of this is totally not Fields fault (even when you acknowledge he's not playing well). Where we disagree is that I can acknowledge the shit situation he's in and the failure of both Pace and Poles to set him up for success, while also recognizing some seriously alarming trends in his play that have all but zapped me of my hope for him. I'd say the same thing to Pat if he'd been posting everything you have the last couple weeks. Relax, I'm not trying to single you out.
Seeing this now after I replied to your earlier post. I for one will be comparing him to specific QBs. Go ahead and ignore my posts so you can stay "on point and keep it about Fields".
This is the most we've argued in years, it's fantastic. I think we're all interested in Fields, I'm not going to speak for BWW, but I do look around to other developing QBs, specifically the ones that have success, and see how it happens because some of these arguments have been around forever. Rodgers wouldn't have become what he was if he didn't get to sit behind a HOFer (does that mean Love, now sitting multiple years, is going to have the same success?). Fucking CM back in the day arguing hard and loud for building from the trenches first. So I look at guys like Mahomes, Hurts, Murray, Allen, Herbert, Burrow, these are all young guys drafted recently. Are they all just the beneficiary of great surrounding talent? No. Were they put in much better situations to succeed? Yes. Would they have looked liked Fields under the same circumstances? I don't think so, but it's a real what if game there. For my money, you and I aren't that far apart. I just think that if Justin were going to be like any of the guys above, he'd be showing more despite the lack of talent. Not that he can't turn it around, but I'm just not seeing it. I mean, he misses some ridiculous easy throws even still, and taken by themselves it's no big deal, but when you only get a handful of passes that aren't under pressure and are easy, you gotta make at least those consistently. I see another WR screen where he misses the receiver I'm going to lose it. Fuck Russia. I also question any stat that grades Mustipher as not the worst of the bunch.
Props to VV I stand corrected, Jay in 2014 wan not better statistically than Eric Kramer in 95. A difference of 26 yards, 1 TD, and a couple points on passer rating. I get the praise for Kramer, but for a guy an eyelash behind him, I don't get chasm-level difference for Jay by standard declared based on statistics, not that 2014 sucked and was one of the most painful seasons in recent memory. Did the team hurt you that bad you can't distinguish that? Rex in 06? LOL go sit down, dimmn. Jay 4 times and even Mitch outplayed him from the same standard by link VV posted you agree with above. Don't move the goalposts now. I wouldn't mind that, but the problem is he's the best OL and on multiple occasions he looks/identifies/knows Mustipher is fucked and he helps him while at RG, making him all the more valuable. Whoever replaces him is going to have to do the same double-duty if we don't want to see the OL get to a worse level than it already is. Same. I want this team to do well AND be modern. With an offense. It does occasionally happen, but it also ends in disaster like Marc Trestman or Matt Nagy. Poles deserves the 'i suck' avatar if next spring yields defense with all the prime assets.
Expectations vs Reality. We gave up 2 1st round picks for Jay, traded for the WR he always wanted. Drafted Alshon. Signed Martellus. Re-signed Forte. We were so thrilled we finally had a franchise QB, expectations were through the roof. This was not the case in 1995. Kramer more or less came out of nowhere in 95, remember Steve Walsh led the playoff charge in 94. Kramer wasn't throwing to all-pros. Plus in the 19 years between him and Jay the overall quality of the passing game was massively improved league-wide. Per Pro Football Reference, the average QB rating in 95 was 79.2. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/passing.htm. The average in 2014 was 88.9. Kramer rated a 93.5, 14 points above league average, with Curtis Conway and Jeff Graham as his lead WRs (both actually decent). Cutler rated a 88.6, actually below the league average, with Marshall and Jeffrey as his leads. Is your love of Cutler still so strong that you can't distinguish that?
