I think the value in drafting DB’s was there with the early run on WR’s and O linemen. Take the better prospect regardless of position. I actually really like the WR pick from a talent standpoint. It’s his age that is the turn off.
Just wanna make a couple things clear here. I do not wanna be dumping on the new GM this early in the piece, i really don't. I know how long the road is gonna be with this guy and i really dont wanna spend the next 3-4 years being pissed off. I also totally get that i am never gonna like every pick a GM makes. Actually individual picks are always a topic for debate. What is more obvious, and important imo, is your overall draft philosophy and your fundamental approach to roster building. From day 1 this was something Pace was hideous at. People can try to talk around this as much as they want, citing this individual pick and that(and i see the GM already doing this), but the facts of the case for the Bears are this: - The Bears gave up an eye watering amount to draft Justin Fields. In real terms, an 11th overall pick, a 7th overall pick and a 4th rounder. Enormous price. - The Bears success over at least the short & medium term will be tied directly to Fields production. Its that simple. Doesn't matter that Poles himself didnt pull that trigger, this is the situation that came with the contract he signed. So thats the backdrop to this offseason. The prized QB got beaten to a pulp last season and if you dont want him to fail you'd better surround him with a ton of help at OL & WR. FA comes and goes, nothing doing. Now you've put it all on the draft. So to come out in this draft and drop your first 2 picks on DB's is just a fundamental fail right off the bat. To follow those up with a very meh WR pick in the 3rd is a minimal gain. Maybe those 2 DB's were good value on an individualistic basis, i'm really not sure it matters. Hell maybe they'll be pro bowlers. If the QB position goes down in flames those 2 picks won't matter diddly poo. I'll even give Poles a pass on that first DB pick, but sat there on the clock at 48 the WR position was still value STACKED!! How on earth do you overlook a 1st round talent like Pickens there?? Or guys like Moore & Pierce? Just so bad. There were OL options too in the 2nd & 3rd rounds. How do you overlook a guy like Raimann at 71?! Or Parham? This highlights how, for good and bad, you can create a knock-on effect from one draft pick to the next. Going WR at 48 sets you up to go OL at 71. Both picks would've landed excellent value and been at positions of need and most importantly could've hugely helped out your QB. Instead Poles forced a pick at 71 after the WR class had been expended cos he backed himself into a corner picking irresponsibly in the 2nd round. This offseason needed to be about Fields, we can now say categorically that it hasnt been. Sure Poles threw a bunch of shit against the wall for OL late on, but they're late round picks for a reason so we'll see how that goes. But also 1- That approach actually goes against Poles' own comments in his introductory presser when he spoke of the importance of the O-Line, and 2- I remember Pace treating OT this way for 7 of his 8years, how did that pan out? Very disappointing draft. I want to feel better about it but right now im giving it a C-, and the only reason its not a D is what appears to be the good individual value of the DB's in the 2nd round, as well as the trade downs which did at least buy him more lottery picks.
Problem is when it comes to Fields its not a marathon. Its not quite a sprint either but time is not on the Bears side. After putting him in a terrible situation his rookie year the Bears have one season, maybe two, to salvage this. The Bears took a bottom 5 O-Line and bottom 10 WR room and somehow made them worse this offseason. That shouldn't be possible but its the choices Poles has made. Without some amazing late moves between now and September i really don't like the way this is headed. The Bears had a load of options at both positions dude, particularly WR and particularly at 48. Sorry but there's a hint of forced justification about this.
It's hard not to echo this sentiment. To the point about the two defenders maybe being eventual All-Pro's - we just traded away one of the best defensive players in the league for pennies because our offense is so bad that none of it mattered. A QB is a much harder piece to get than defensive back(s) - we theoretically have one, let's help him. Why that hasn't been done yet is just baffling to me, unless this group honestly believes either that: A ) Fields might not be it. B ) They can scheme their way to better protection and results, which... makes me nervous. While I'm glad that Poles isn't Ryan Pace, I also wish that someone would get it through their head that Fields needs help. Poles didn't trade up. Poles drafted two guys that look like talented players with a bright future (not because they jumped out of a pool or dropped due to serious injuries). Poles did, however, mortgage the future - he is putting Fields' health and development on the line as collateral for the decisions being made at this moment. We will see whether or not it's a price this team can pay and still be successful in the future.
If Fields really is the guy...he's going to shine regardless. If he needs to be surrounded by tons of talent in order to be good...he's not the guy. Plenty of great QBs have started their careers on bad teams with less talent than they had later on. I honestly don't think the Bears WR room is worse right now...it's less top heavy without ARob but ARob played like a #4 WR last season. And Borom was way better last season than I thought he would be. I'm looking forward to his year 2. Jenkins can play. We got a quality guy from the Packers. And we lost the softest, albeit most talented, guy on the line during all that. Now bodies have been added to the mix and the line is young, mean, and hopefully hungry. I don't hate it. I don't think it's fair, yet anyway, to say Poles is the same as the previous couple guys because he isn't taking the same approach. Maybe all the moves he just made were crap. Maybe it's a mixed bag. Maybe it moves the needle and maybe it doesn't. But it's not the same approach at all.
Howdy folks, sorry I'm late. Spent most of the last month in a desert for work. Dear god do I never want to go back, and I'm still redder than a fucking lobster and welcome springtime allergies and real water again... I'll start with the draft. I'm utterly fucking disappointed. I was colossally irritated by Poles saying the plan is to put Fields in the best position to succeed before taking 2 secondary guys with his top 2 picks and planting his flag on "I would have done harm to this team not to take the BPA I did." He doesn't care about Fields. He's not going to do anything to help him. FA was scarce but I was expecting that. You either had to pay top dollar or go dumpster diving for an idiot who may be in jail (Pringle) and Equimaneous St. Brown--which is a fantastic name but has thus far in the league looked more like a college household name who is struggling to make it to 6 years so he can get lifetime benefits/player stipend/pension. I like Jaquan Brisker. A lot considering that you are only stuck with 1 more year of Ejax at stupid money before you can cut him and still be in the black next year. Kyler Gordon? Not so much. Can't help but feel we got Kevin King 2.0. Gordon was a solid CB2 for Washington, like King was. The problem is, like King, CB1 or Trent McDuffie (or Sydney Jones in 2017) was the superior shutdown corner. Unlike Jones, McDuffie didn't shred his achilles and drop to the 3rd round. The league has a way with weeding out unremarkable players on remarkable college squads. The OL. Jesus fucking christ, some people have said "malpractice" and they're right. Take a bucket of shit, toss it against the wall and hope something sticks is the plan? Except you were dead last in 2021 in OL, dead last in sacks (Fields to blame for some), top 3 in pressures allowed (again, Fields to blame for some.) Worst pocket times (which Fields didn't always help by going run first on a few when stepping up/side stepping were better options). As mentioned, you lost your best 2 OL. You upgraded C which isn't saying much--because Patrick was the 32nd ranked C out of 38 with 6+ starts. Mustipher was 38th. Did you improve? Technically, yes. I don't know who's playing RG, and while you want to like Borom and Jenkins given their age/potential--neither looked exactly promising in their 6 games (Jenkins) or 10 (Borom). You're stuck with Whitehair and his 12 and change mil even after a dogshit year. I like the Southern Utah kid Braxton Jones. He was a LT who played LT and didn't move around, and dominated 2nd tier College (Trevor Penning from Northern Iowa went in the 1st round for context). The San Diego State kid looks like a guard. The HBCU kid--well....I think is more for flavor. Will be shocked if he's here in 2 years. The shifty speedy 25 year old WR they got? Uhhh....well. He can't route run. He's fast as hell and can return kicks/punts and now everybody wants a guy like Deebo Samuel. I'll complain about this less because word is Fields and Poles sat down and Fields wanted this one. Poles being the gentleman he is at least spit on it before bending him over to fuck him, I guess.. The plan is have a fast offense where Fields gets rid of the ball quick and is run heavy. Cant wait to see what happens when teams stack the box with 8. I can see this going very wrong, but hey--at least I'll have my nostalgic 2 yard swing pass to the FB on 3rd an forever to feel warm/fuzzy about. I get taking the cheap way out is all you have left, but it still doesn't hold. I already agreed he's the superior athlete, but not receiver. That's my point. 2012, 192 targets, 118 catches. 1508 yards. Impressive. Hard to argue against it right? Debate over--Especially when the other guy in 2020 was 151 targets, 102 catches, 1250 yards. 5 less TDs on the year too. Until you look at the whys (fuck you Nagy). In 2020, 2nd most targets for the bears? Darnell Mooney with 98. Then Jimmy Graham/Anthony Miller tied with 76. Monty with 68, and Kmet with 44 before you get to the names you don't care about. 2012? After Marshall's 192 targets? Matt Forte with 59. Alshon--who was hurt and only played 6 games--48. Earl Bennett with 49. Kellen Davis with 44. This isn't difficult. The bears needed Brandon Marshall to be superhuman and put up superhuman stats in 2012. They didn't need Robinson to be in 2020. I don't know how/why one can conclude Marshall is the superior WR by merely looking at yearly side-by-side comparisons when again--the data says otherwise (besides being an athlete which I've now said for the 3rd time) that Robinson was far more dependable, a better route runner, better at contested catches, getting separation (for being the inferior athlete), catch radius and not being anywhere near close to the top of the league in drops.
It is clear to me, Poles is thinking full on rebuild. This to me, confirms they are not sold on Fields. Doesn't hate him I think but also is not convinced he's the guy to build the entire team around. Buckle up, as I think they are thinking a minimum 2-3 years at which point either Fields is a stud on his own, or they show him the door and draft another. This isn't a bad point. People love to talk about how "take QB X and put him on the Bears and they look terrible too" and I don't think it always holds. You put Tom Brady on last years team, does he look like Fields? Rodgers? I get it, they're already developed but they also are just that good. Fields has potential, and he'll have to make do with what he's got. It does make his development harder, but if he's "the next Manning", he can start showing flashes, making lemonade from lemons.
Last season Darnell Mooney was the second tallest WR on the roster. I think he will start minicamp as either the shortest or second shortest. So they did add size in the receiver room. Last year Pace focused on speed and speed alone. Poles seemed to go after guys that can make moves in the field and be slippery once they catch the ball. There was no chance of fixing every issue in one offseason.
This reads like you're saying it doesn't matter what the talent levels are in the players around Fields, which of course you can't be saying, because that would be gideon level football stupid. It matters enormously the talent level placed around Fields. Fields and any other young QB. Thats why teams that aren't Bears try to actually put talented players around their young QBs. They certainly don't(for the very most part) just shrug and go "meh, if he's really any good he wont need help". Interesting article on CBSucks about just this. Note the Bears have basically done less to help their QB than anyone. Happy to bookmark this post so we can come back and see how it all played out.. Bears 'all in on' Justin Fields, but here's how Chicago's moves compare to recent teams with second-year QBs Moving it on I know you never mentioned veterans but id include them as well. Tannehill went from borderline bust to Comeback Player of the Year in one move. People used to debate if Stafford was a top10 QB, not so much now. Yes we shat on Cutler, but lets also not forget the garbage they surrounded him with. Hester for his #1WR, trading away Greg Olsen, the endless stream of dogshit who were meant to block. Carson Wentz is admittedly assistance proof, but he's also ginger. JK. If the guys around him can't win their matchups then the vast vast majority of the time the QB will fail. Aren't the odds stacked against Fields enough just by being a Bears QB? The guy from the Packers is so quality they made no effort to retain him and no other team was in on him. He signed a tiny 2year deal for $4mil guaranteed. Maybe he'll be the FA signing of the year. But my question is who's the 5th starter on that line? One of the freshly flung turds stuck to the wall? Please dont let it be Mustipher. I havet seen a depth chart and legit dont know who it is which isnt great.
Talent absolutely matters. But a great QB is a great QB. Many have started their careers with far less talent than what they would have later on and still succeeded...that's my point. If Fields can't develop without help...he's not the guy. Cutler had Marshall, Jeffery, and a still somewhat sane Martellus Bennett for a while and it still didn't matter. He made rookie mistakes when he needed to execute. Stafford played on some horrendous teams and was still a stat machine...he proves my point more than yours. And Tannehill never really changed his play...aside from W/L and playoff appearances his numbers in Tennessee are pretty similar to his numbers in Miami. There's really no argument there. Smart kid. Can play. Bookmark this and apologize later. RG bothers me. Kick the tires on Kyle Long one more time. I have no idea. Maybe it's Borom because they kick him inside and one of the rookies plays RT. Being young, mean, and hungry on the offensive line isn't a bad thing. I wish all five spots were bluechippers but when you have a GM that was trading away draft picks like babyfan handing out corona's in the back of a van...you don't really get a lot of access to bluechippers.
Have you ever met SAS over on the Browns board? I should introduce you, you guys would get along famously. He too likes to choose what reality is and then uses stats to weave his fairytale narratives. Take this for instance. You seem to be trying to say that because there was no one else to throw to, the Bears had no choice but to make Marshall a 1,500 yard receiver haha. As you read this now is it sinking in what you just wrote? Nooo, Marshall had 1,500yards & 11TD's because he's a fucking good receiver. Bracketed coverage and Defensive gameplans to take away the only good WR on the team didnt matter a fuck, Marshall still balled out. Pretty sure thats the reason he got voted All-Pro that year, not cos the Bears #2 WR position was kinda shaky. But thats not even the best bit: You kinda zeroed in on 2012 there pat, any reason you didnt mention 2013, the other year Marshall outperformed ARob? For all the folks at home the reason pat didn't mention 2013 is cos Alshon Jeffrey had 148 targets that year, a full 50 more than Darnell Mooney in 2020 and Marshall still had a better season than ARob. Kinda shits all over your little targets theory pat. Please dont move goalposts once more and say Marshall benefitted from being across from Jeffrey in 2013, that really wouldn't be a good look. Also we're now onto blaming Nagy as well i see! This the new Cutler excuse is it. Don't forget to mention the guys in the laundry room. That detergent they used when washing the jock straps really chafed ARobs sensitive little nutsack and THATS why he couldn't match Marshall's production! You are right about one thing pat, this is easy, for everyone but you. Dunno why you get hung up like this but hey ho. Tell us about drops again while failing to mention TD's. You know, points! The thing that decides games! Marshall averaged 10TDs a year with the Bears, pretty sure thats all-time top10 pace. ARob averaged 4.5. One of those averages is difference maker, the other is just a guy. B-B-But Nagy never threw the ball inside the 5 so ARob had less chances! Errr.......
My thinking exactly varder. This is shaping up to be another multi year rebuild thats not a rebuild. And as far as these senior management fucks are concerned that is unforgivable. FWIW i think Fields could make it if they gave him a chance. Def more potential than Trubisky. It is outrageous the way George has allowed this team to be run. You're fine with trading multiple huge picks cos this QB is the second coming, but your also fine with a new GM having no faith in said QB and flushing years of the team down the drain. George really is an unspeakable shite.
And many many more who could've been good QB's didnt wind up being because they never had a chance to develop and the window closed. There's really no comparison in this, for that one "great" QB who beats the house there's an order of magnitude of other guys who lost, who could've been something and weren't because they werent supported. You're talking about the 1 in a hundred im talking about the other 99 but the exception doesnt trump the rule my friend. The proof is in the pudding, or that link i threw up. Look what other teams around the league are doing to help their QB's, for obvious reason. The phrase putting players in position to succeed very much applies here. Well there's the 25 point improvement in QBR between last year Miami & first year Tenn. Or 15 point improvement between year 2 Tenn and Miami, but sure. He didn't win comeback player or go to his first pro bowl for being the same. I wasnt even being sarcastic and i hope like hell you are right. Poles has addressed the O-Line this offseason like he's the love child of Gandalf & Merlin. He doesnt need to spend big money or draft picks cos he's gets it better than anyone else. It was that one rookie minicamp in 2005 you see. I dont mean to be cynical(yes i do), but i've seen so many smartest men in the room come and go with this team.
This would suggest that the average QB was destined to be great and circumstances got in the way. And you're too smart to actually believe that. More often than not...cream rises to the top. Cutler wasn't ruined by the Bears. He was a mentally deficient QB that believed in his arm too much and reading defenses too little. Tannehill had back to back 4K yard seasons in Miami, missing a 3rd year by less than 100 yards, where he threw for 51 touchdowns over those two seasons. His second highest TD total as a pro QB came as a Dolphin. His highest yardage season came as a Dolphin. But sure let's act like he was a bum that became a stud. Because that totally checks out. The funny part is Poles is currently doing the exact opposite of acting like the smartest guy in the room. He's been humble. He's been conservative. He's been patient. He doesn't speak in odd, cryptic phrases where he comes across as trying to hide his hand from the media. He's been the polar opposite of the last few guys. He didn't panic on draft night and shit his pants and compete with himself over a draft pick. He told the world he was gonna draft the best player available when it was his turn....and he did, at least in his mind. He said he was interested in adding picks rather than giving them away and he did that. I get the cynicism because it's the Bears. Poles might suck. He probably does because everyone else has. But at least apply common sense to your cynicism.
