Don't you side-eye me, I know all too well that you have a great sense of humor, and you tolerate all our shit, even the shit we manufacture. You need to lighten up anyway just because you thought I was serious, Side-eye back at ya! Yeah, look around it didn't even need to be said, look around people are too damn sensitive today.
This times like 10,000. Tearing down an ugly statue that birds poop on erases history as much as never bothering to crack a book and actually reading history. Aunt Jemima doesn't bother me so much as long as they don't change the recipe that bitch put in the bottle....but what the hell is Fudd gonna do without a rifle? Can we get him a Crocodile Dundee style knife?
Agree, although I despise mob behavior. It is pretty shameful that our country continues to celebrate and honor racists and traitors (i.e. Confederates) but I would much prefer these statues came down in a more civil way, such as a town/state voting to remove them. Mob behavior isn't driven by nobility or anti-racism, it's driven by emotions and irrationality. There's no excuse for it and anyone defending its actions has lost my respect.
I agree with you blang as I also prefer a more peaceful dignified way of removing these statues as we should be a more civilized society. The mentality to keep these statues up is just as damning as that mobbing behavior tearing them down and as innocuous as they may seem, imagine being Jewish and having a statue of Hitler in your town. Besides "History" being used to support these monuments they often use "Heritage" as a justification which is even worse. It seems obvious that this country hasn't healed since the Civil War because continued support of these symbols confirms it. Should Germans proudly walk in Berlin draped in a Nazi flag as that is their heritage? If you denounce one and not the other you're a hypocrite and part of the problem with the division in this country.
I am Jewish and that would be awful. If my town didn't listen to my protestations of removing the statue, I'd leave the town before resorting to tearing it down. Racist southerners created a revisionist history in the early 20th century with the "Lost Cause" narrative of the Civil War. This narrative was that war was not fought to keep the institution of slavery but about protecting some hazily defined Southern way of life and culture. The scary part is that generations of southerners since have bought this BS wholeheartedly. I think the division with this country comes from many things, but one main reason being that we can't agree on history, and consequently shared values. Folks in the south deny the true objective of the Confederacy for the Civil War. Now we have folks on the left (and the NYT) pushing a narrative that the Revolutionary War was fought to protect the institution of slavery, which is also BS. History is about facts (to the extent were capable of knowing them) and if it's twisted to fit an ideology, racist or otherwise, it will eventually lead us down a rabbit hole of self-destruction.
Hence the need for these so-called "Alternative Facts". The Republicans like to also align themselves as being the "Party of Lincoln" but their platform currently shares little to the values they had then as they do now, and the same can be said for the Democrats it's like they began to morph their values during the 20th century, and the parties completely flip-flopped their platforms, and Democrats currently would better represent the "Party of Lincoln" more than the Republicans do.
The modern media today is all about clicks and catchy headlines leading to articles with little to no substance. That drives revenue. Right now anything being"woke" garners attention. Attention = clicks/views. Clicks/views of what? An irresponsible, incompetent talking head with an opinion who then makes too much off of advertising. That being said...the actions are simple, yet the remedy continues to be complicated by dunces in elected positions who can't stay broad/simple when looking at basic things (like clean drinking water for everyone) without greasing palms/adding a fuckload of "pork barrel spending" on shit that has nothing to do with making sure Americans have clean drinking water. At the sign of conflict or disagreement, we have to stop running to our corners and shouting louder than everybody else, and just keep it basic, broad, and simple. Simple like: Don't blame the sons/daughters/ancestors for the sins of the people at the time. You bring up Germans and southerners/some confederates--why is it so fucking hard to say *southern state living individual* person isn't directly responsible for the actions of the mid-late 1800s and what happened into the 1900s? The same way German people being born today or even in the last 70 years aren't responsible for the actions of some a century ago or more...That simple. End of sentence. Judge a person by their actions, not the actions of a dead person they may/may not be related to. More importantly, society should be learning from the mistakes. That's how they progress. I find America today to be frustrating, but if you look objectively/contextually--we're still one of the youngest countries on the planet. What has taken England/most of Europe, Asia, South America, and Africa millennia to overcome in regards to societal norms. America is about to hit 250 years old. For context, Puritans (English religious nutbags from hundreds of years ago who have evolved into Evangelicals) were fighting religious wars in early 1000s and before burning witches in New America in the 1600s onward. ~600+ years (including a period of time where the Renaissance happened), yet we're about to hit 250. America in the almost 250 has struggled an awful lot as well, as is to be expected. Are we moving faster than other countries did in their maturation? Much. Remember that history is written by the victors. The victors aren't always telling the truth about things. Question things, ladies and gents, but also listen and just let the facts be facts. The most basic of actions will change a lot of the chaos for the better. Then look at who is driving the chaos/unsettlement and what they gain from it and THEN we can get over this uncomfortable period. Preferably with Madam Guillotine in every town/city's square, unaffected by political party--just doing its job against the wicked. Let's get there so we can start healing. Going back to my mantra above of just keeping things simple, let's do so here. Grant during his time was a "good guy." We have come a long way since then. Of course now, his sins are bad--because we've evolved and what was acceptable then isn't now. He got slaves as a gift for his wedding (but freed them at a later time). Now, you're getting a shitty blender for your wedding. It does no good to rake a dead man who can't defend himself over the coals for doing what he did was acceptable during his time alive. What gets me with the mobs we see is that they're rudderless/leaderless. They have such power right now should they get smart enough to put it into the right place. Sadly, we're still in the hyper-charged "cancel culture" moment. 86 times. 86 times was a variation of the word "slave" (slaves, slavery, etc) written in the confederate articles of secession document in 1860-61. Some states did their own separate ones and spoiler alert: it was about slavery. Again, I'm not for blaming the modern southerners for the sins of some ancestors. Nobody should, but you wouldn't know that with the media shoving shit down everybody's throat with the flavor of "woke."
Again, I'm not for blaming the modern southerners for the sins of some ancestors. Nobody should, Well said Pat.........
I have to say, I'm not all that surprised to see a mostly level headed discussion from my fellow Bears fans (and I say that specifically since there was a good page of two year old nonsense from a non-bears fan) - in the area of politics, finding something civil is pretty hard to do. And I know we have diverse views here. pat has said so, so much I agree with (some things I don't, but I can't be assed to go and find the minor quibbles). Great points by bww, dline, ev, tuna, blang (at least, more of you made good points to again, but it took me forever to read this thread and I'm not going back over it, heh). There were a few things that stuck out to me that I did want to chime in on: 1. Someone said, "vote" - this is true, but guys, if you're talking about the Presidential election, you're dead wrong. Our president is not a King. We have checks and balances - Obama/Trump can do all the EOs they want, but theoretically the Judicial or Legislative branches will check an overreach (though there have been several I've been shocked by). Moreover, states have power, and your local municipality has even more. Inform on the LOCAL elections, reach out to the local SHERIFF (who is an elected position) and let them know. Votes count far more to them and they might actually effect changes. These protests are effective because they are happening locally so that local officials have to notice. The president isn't going to do shit about your local cops beating the shit out of someone. To be fair, your senator/rep isn't going to do much either, though at least they'd be the ones to vote/introduce laws. 2. Someone else (I think it was tuna) mentioned the police unions - while my entire family besides myself have been a part of a union, the one thing they almost universally say is that they are a necessary evil, that is, things for the employees would be worse without them. But lets not recuse them from this shitstorm. They protect their people to a fault, making it harder for justice for asshole cops spoiling the bunch. They are a key cog in the current system gone wrong. Yet outside of a few guys here, I hear almost nothing about it. Not from the protesters, not from the media. I don't know what could be done, but they have the power to right wrongs, yet they are untouchable. Get real accountability for bad actors, and you can make progress on police brutality. 3. "Defunding" is the worst slogan ever. Particularly because the most reasonable take I've heard (and seemingly the prevailing one) is that this means "reduce funding" and spend that on other social services. I appreciate the sentiment, but even this plan is pretty half baked at the moment. In the extreme case, I've heard this really does mean to remove the police entirely and replace them. Again, a noble sentiment that is going to hit reality hard. It's one way to fight the police union, but there are SO many unanswered questions here. Come up with completely new police academies? Who are the people that are going to staff this new department? The same types of people that applied to be cops, right? Have no cops like they are dreaming of here in the CHOP? That's worked out well with two shootings the past two days. Cops attract bad seeds because they have so much power. But they are 100% NEEDED. I haven't been to any protests, but in general I am very sympathetic, the three popular cases right now are fairly horrific. Ahmaud Arbery was murdered in broad daylight and the cops didn't even arrest two CIVILIANS. That was some straight up modern day lynching and if those idiots hadn't released the video evidence thinking it would CLEAR their name, they'd have gotten away with it. Hell they still might. However, early on in this thread, I think maybe baby or someone asked, "do you think things will change?". Yeah, there's going to be some change. Do I think we're on the verge of the French Revolution? No. I don't see this ending with massive upheaval, because there's too much here so there's no singular focus and certainly not any easy answers. Police Brutality. Systemic Racism. Income disparity. People can barely agree on the problems, much less a solution. Thanks if you read all this. One time I posted a reply to a meme on facebook that I could be friends with people who didn't share my political views and I had 100+ comments condemning me for loving racists, etc. Reminded me quickly why I don't use those platforms and rarely speak up politically.
Great page here, lots of really good thoughts. I learnt something from a statue once. I came across a statue to Robert Burns when i was in Brisbane, Australia years ago. I obvs knew of Burns at the time but standing there in front of this statue which was on the other side of the world so far from his/our home, really brought it home to me how influential Burns must have been, both then and now. After that I did further research on Burns, he isn't just one of history's great poets who also has the best meal ever named after him, he was enormously influential in fields such as the socialsim, liberalism and according to some even the development of democracy itself. His positive impact on the world is beyond measure*. But i may never have educated myself on all of that if i hadn't gone up to a statue. How many statues do you take the time to read buddy? I prob don't read enough, but they're like books, you learn as much from them as you take the time to. But they won't do the work for you. * Couple of side notes: 1- The statue in Brisbane was originally put up for noble reasons no doubt. But it was financed and carried out at the time by the Brisbane Men's Club, which was obvs a men only club. That was an institution based on sexism wasn't it. That doesn't sound inclusive does it. Is the statue a symbol of positive contributions by a great man, or one of sexism and oppression? Which would reasoned thinking say? Which would heat-of-the-moment emotion? 2- There exists another Burns statue in Jacksonville, Florida. Its in Confederacy Park. This park has hosted annual reunions for confederates where presumably they celebrated their culture and values, probably vowing to keep them alive. During the civil rights movement the park was also strictly whites only. This Burns statue sits on ground riddled with racism and injustice. Is it a testament to those things by association and as such should be pulled down? What would reason vs heated emotion decide? I know, what im saying sounds far fetched, even ridiculous. But its really not. IMO we should be very wary about how we go about this stuff, cos the slope is far more slippery than we think. I agree with blang, IF statues are to be pulled down it should be done very much through official channels and after careful consideration. Even then, personally i think in most cases i'd prefer more positive acts. Like right next to say a "confederate" statue you put up a statue of a pioneer of say anti-racism. Hell make the statue slightly bigger if you have a schism about size. Undermine the original statue by putting a physical symbol of progress right next to it. Put it right there, not just for yourselves, but for the generations to come. Sorry for the essay
One of my other problems with this statue business is i think its not directing the movement in the proper direction. It risks clouding the focus. Dline mentioned not learning anything from a statue, but on the other hand would a statue not being there teach you anything? Can anyone here honestly say they derive their right and wrong from statues? Cos i sure don't. And if statues hold so little meaning now as some here suggest, then why bother tearing them down? I think part of it is there's def just a section of people however small who just want to smash shit up and they get to with this without being on the wrong side of things. Also maybe an element of laziness actually, certainly among the virtue-signalling brigade. A lot of people want a quick win so lets attack something that is a physical object which we can point to. But removing statues alone won't change shit. People really committing to the long haul is the only way and that means more boring stuff like the ballot box. Hopefully the vast majority stick with it, i actually think its gonna happen time.
The issue I have is that the "checks and balances" are no more. Everything has been polarized in the name of political party and while we, the citizens are bickering over red point versus blue point--those in power making decisions are just raking in cash and opportunity. The senate majority leader is a prime example. Presently, there are over 400 bills on his desk, bipartisan--humanity stuff like "maybe crazy people shouldn't get free access without background checks to an AR15 just because they can pay cash at a gun show before shooting up pre-schoolers?" Instead, the conversation changes to the crazy person having his/her 2nd amendment rights infringed before the red talking heads come in citing the 2nd Amendment they seemingly have never read. But then the best part comes when we don't hold the same standard of rights like in places like Florida--where criminals who did their time and paid their fines/debts to society. They get jobs and get taxed when they're out, but cant vote (because ass clowns like Rick Scott don't like brown people). What was that famous founding father line about "taxation without representation?" McConnell gets cheered and has been in office for over 40 years (almost 30 in Senate alone) for "sticking it to the other party." Pelosi does it too, and before these two it was Harry Reid and Paul Ryan/John Boener. We've replaced "checks and balances" with hyper-partisanship. Blue team blocks red team, blue team gets glamorous headlines. Red team blocks blue team, red team gets glamorous headlines. I know this may be a shock, but there was a time where when there was a disagreement, both red and blue stayed on the job until the problem got solved. Now, they're allocating funding in a virus stimulus bill to entities like Performing Arts Centers and military defense contractors (not the actual military branches/Army/Navy/AF/Coast Guard) when it should be focused on people out of a job and small businesses who can't be open during a pandemic. Red and blue can agree spectacularly and quickly when it comes to raising their salary, which has increased 10 times since 2000. That's a raise every 2 years to Senate/Congress who consistently have single digit approval ratings and most of the clowns don't even show up for their jobs (like oversight committees)? Not to salt the wound, but 13 times since 1990 (so a raise every 2-3 years on average) for those counting at home. And us voters are supposed to be their bosses that they answer to (before they redraw voting district lines to keep winning)? Meanwhile, we--taxpayers and citizens continue get the short end of he stick, but because blue looks down on red and vice-versa, we're busy focusing on the talking heads' misdirection, not the gross incompetence that's supposed to be a functioning government making the most basic of decisions for those living in "the best country in the world." You are correct with local, state, county levels. Federal levels can't do everything, but that it's inherently broken and corrupt, and also that we've given these clowns years (decades even) to fix the mess they got us in--is in need of long overdue addressing. Checks and balances can't be restored until the American "2 party system" is dismantled. Based on other countries' progression over time, a Parliamentary system seems to be the next step (and even that has its problems--as our international posters Ev and Baby can probably elaborate on), unless someone has a better idea (I can think of a few, but they involve cruel/unusual punishment to most politicians and lobbyists.) I think we've given these idiots more than enough time to fix the problem they created. They just don't want to do it when the corporate cashouts keep hitting their bank accounts.
This sums up perfectly how I feel. Well said. Voting in Biden isn't gonna solve any problems. The system is shot and it's time to turn it upside down.
This toppling of statues is an interesting and historical event to watch. My husband and I and friends usually travel through the States every summer for a couple of weeks by bike. I've learned more history by reading the inscriptions on some of the statues that we've seen then I have anywhere else. That's an easy point to make since I'm Canadian and we don't take American history in school. For example we've spent a lot of time in Gettysburg and since I love reading we've stopped at a lot of the different battle scene locations to read the statues. It's quite remarkable what you can learn. Toppling a statue is not going to eradicate history. I think it says a lot more about present history, in fact. Those who live on under the Great South banners and continue to revere the heroes of those times are lost and they just don't know it. Holding on to a time whose time has passed is the doorway to never seeing change happen. Knocking statues down is not going to make a difference to any of those people. What would make a difference is eradicating poverty, lack of education, ignorance and hatred. There is one statue in particular which caught my eye. How do you condemn behaviours and mind-sets that were acceptable at the time? Pat said, "It does no good to rake a dead man who can't defend himself over the coals for doing what he did was acceptable during his time alive." The picture on the left is of Robert E Lee. This statue in Dallas was put into storage and then sold at auction for 1.4 million with the condition that it never be displayed publicly in the Dallas-Fort Worth metropolitan area. The second statue was defaced in Nashville and the message on it is what really provoked a reaction in me. These were all men who died believing in an ideal which today is repugnant. I've always thought of statues as historical footnotes. When we celebrate Remembrance Day (U.S. Veteran's Day) in Canada our motto is, "Lest we forget". I think we have to find a happy medium between moving forward progressively to eradicate ignorance and racism but not to do so by denying or ignoring our history. Our histories differ but they are there to remind us to keep looking forward and to be better people.
