What I also find interesting (especially for our Steelers brethren) is that a parallel to Baker is their own Ben Roethlisberger. They're eager to move on now, but Ben had a tear there in 2013 - 2018 that, when healthy, saw him perform as a Top 5-10 QB in the league. After the Monday night game he gave an anecdote about what franchises can do to help young QBs and it was exactly what his allowed him to do - mature in the system, be supported by a running game and defense, and experience consistency. Baker and Ben have a lot of similarities. Both take more sacks than necessary trying to extend or make big plays as both have that gunslinger mentatlity (Baker was a Favre fan, Ben an Elway one). Ben was victimized early on (even later on) by batted passes and struggled with interceptions - Ben had a 3.8 interception rate through his first four seasons, Baker's is 2.9 by comparsion. What Baker hasn't had are those key elements: consistency within the team, a strong defense, and until Stefanski, a strong running game. The defense finally came into its own in the second half of 2021 but as previously noted, after the Arizona game, Mayfield's season was already dead in the water. Before we happily bury Baker for a panecea QB (that doesn't exist and isn't coming, mind you)... let's see if we can't get him healthy, get him some help, and have the season in 2022 that he was poised to have in 2021.
I agree that the other night was ridiculous in that aspect. Watt did seem to know what was coming. I've never seen Baker struggle quite like that. Why was Mayfield able to find the throwing lanes, and for the most part, avoid getting passes batted down his first couple years in the league? In fact, I'd say Baker was better at that than many of the taller QB's. Deflected passes haven't been an issue for him until this season, so I'm pretty sure that has more to do with his injury than anything else. That and perhaps predictable play calling.
FTR, I'm not looking to argue that either. And I won't deny that this is true, but it's not an exclusive "OBJ" thing. That's why star WR's have been called "prima donna's" for years and years. They want the ball and expect to get it, and when they don't, there's problems. Not all receivers obviously, but certainly not the first time we've seen a star receiver disgruntled because the team fails to get him the ball. Hell we saw it with what many consider to be the greatest WR of this generation, Randy Moss. People forget the Oakland experience before he hooked up with Tommy in New England.
Fair enough but you can't have that conversation without also having the conversation about his future contract. My guess is Baker (and his agent) have a much higher opinion of his ability. If you're telling me Baker is willing to sign for 20-25 million per year then I'd say stick to the game plan. If he wants 35-40 than it's time for a new game plan - IMO of course. You lost me here and maybe it's your interpretation of what I said. I wasn't trying to suggest you needed a QB who can go out and win football games by himself. I just want a guy that can deliver when they take away the running game - from the pocket. That list for me is: Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Russell, Tannehill, Watson, Prescott, Murray. And guys that haven't proven it yet but I believe have the ability: Zach Wilson, Trevor Lawrence, Mac Jones. And then there are the system QBs who need the running component of the offense to have success: Mayfield, Cousins, Lamar, Wentz, Goff, Tannehill, Stafford, Carr, Wentz, Hurts, Taysom Fields and Lance are unknowns to me but they intrigue me. Lance more than Fields. I'm not suggesting Baker be discarded. I'm just evaluating him after 4 years of play and adding in the free agent component. The problem I see with guys like Baker is they consistently get overpaid and then the team declines (Goff, Cousins, Stafford, Garroppolo, Stafford, Carr, Ryan, Roethlisberger post 2010). And then it becomes a yearly game of what impending free agents you can afford to keep and who can you not. I would handle the QB position differently if I was the GM / coach. A lot of people give Brady credit for "taking less" over the years. I see it differently. I think Belichick kept his salary down. Lamar is in the same boat as Baker only worse. His reliance on running the football can't be sustained and this most recent injury shines some light on that. A pocket passer can play on a less than 100% ankle. Lamar can not - because he's not a pocket passer. At any point Lamar is less than 100% from the waist down his effectiveness will be impacted. He needs that elite athleticism to be great. Without it he's Baker. If the Bengals can stay healthy they are in the driver seat in the AFC North for quite awhile.
I'm having a hard time figuring out what you mean in regards to the injuries but here is what stands out to me in those stats: Baker, 2020: 305 of 486 (62.8%), 3,563 yards (222.7 YPG), 26 TD (5.3%), 8 INT (1.6%), 95.9 QB rating The Browns are at their best when Baker is in a complimentary role.
Daboll deserves a ton of credit, as does Jordan Palmer. They have had a huge impact on Allen. But he had to also want to be coached and then work his tail off and he also has possibility the most ridiculous arm talent in the history of the NFL. I mentioned earlier about Baker's windup. Watch it compared to Allen. It's Marino-like only it goes farther and faster. The scheme compliments him (no doubt) but the scheme works because the QB is indefensible on most days. Any evaluation of Burrow without talking about his ability to read the defense, get through his progressions and then deliver the ball on-time with ridiculous accuracy is an incomplete evaluation. Yes, he has great weapons. They are great because the balls are so damn catchable. Good comp, not what you want to be as an organization. 2017 Minnesota Vikings without Adrian Peterson's bloated contract and Case Keenum on a one-year, 2 million dollar contract: 13-3 Minnesota Vikings next four seasons with Kirk Cousins averaging 30M per season: 32-32-1 There seems to be a pattern among fans of blaming the coaches when the players underperform. I've been witness to it for years in Pittsburgh.
Amen to that. I'm not ready to bury Mayfield by any means. I'm just glad we didn't rush to back the Brinks truck up in his driveway. A lot of unfortunate circumstances have led to this disappointing season. I do think both he and Stefanski took a step backwards this year, but I don't think that it's anything that can't be corrected in time for next season. There's no doubt in my mind that both are a huge part of the plan moving forward. We need a solid draft. Hopefully one that yields a couple stud WR's our way. I can't think of a team that did less with the WR's than the Browns did this season. Some is on Baker, but it seems pretty obvious that upgrades are needed in this area. We certainly don't match-up at the position within the AFCN.
Very interesting discussion guys, but when you say "win"...... win what exactly? Win a few games? For sure. Win a division? Errr, well Baker's never done that and Garoppolo's only done it once. Win a SB? No way. In the case of Jimmy we know that. He was in one where his team had a 10point 4thQ lead in which they'd ran it down the Chiefs throats. And he couldn't get the job done. Failed to sustain a drive even to FG range that could've given them a 13point lead with 6-7mins left. Failed to hit the deep shot that was open which would've given them the lead with like 1min left. 2 picks and a sub 70 rating. Nothing Mayfield has shown makes me think he would be any different in terms of going all the way and winning the whole thing. None of that is said to start a Baker fight. The Browns & 49ers make for great comparison teams for many reasons, 1 of which is they would both be legit SB contenders every year with good QB play. I'd say the Browns even more than the 9ers frankly. As it is, neither has a top10 QB and you factor in playing in the 2 toughest divisions in football with multiple stud QB's, the current way just won't get the job done. JMO. Maybe you guys will roll your eyes at this, and i have no idea about draft capitol, but with that roster, put an established QB on the Browns and they get scary real quick. They should be making phone calls. Russell Wilson? Scary as fuck. Rodgers? Game over. Hell i'd take Derek Carr, who has long been under rated. There was plenty of rumour re Carr being traded last year and he would actually be affordable. Its not easy making that kind of break i get it. The safe play is of course to stick with the status quo. But he who dares. The Rams dared, and they've still got plenty of football to play this season. Anyway JMO.
I'm not discussing contract at this time no matter what. As fair as I would like to see, we can't even begin to talk about a contract until a) he is healthy enough to suit up week 1. b) See where he is after the injury heals up c) What level are you when the season comes to a close. If it is what I expected, back up the truck and pay the man before free agency opens.. if it isn't, THEN and only then start thinking about the replacement options. He isn't signing for $25M, he believes in himself too much. SOMEONE will pay this kid $30M, probably $35M average. The top tier QBs are going to begin at $40 and probably be int he $45M per year.. That is exactly what I thought you were trying to say... Regardless, the list is still too small to believe it will be easy to just replace him. For the record, I do still believe, when healthy, Baker can do what needs to be done when they take the running game away. I actually feel the running game failed to some extent this year because of the limitations placed on Baker due to his injuries. Last year, he could make the defense pay when they came up to stop the run, that changed this season and we are all having this conversation because of it. There are others that are ready to discard him. This isn't about Brady. I agree Belichick kept his salary down.. But Brady also knew he could be stepping into a bad situation by taking the highest bidder. He was very smart about it during his New England years, and again when he chose to move on. Tampa Bay isn't the highest bidder, they are where he wanted to be. For the rest of the normal players, free agency dictates value. Cousins proved that when he left Washington.
For me it is a fundamental part of the conversation. If we are debating whether or not to keep things status quo with Baker making 8M per season than I'm on board. Spend some more in free agency and make the team so formidable he just has to hand it off and hit the TE crosser on the run fake. Well I could make an argument they'd have a better chance of winning with Mitch Trubisky on a one-year deal than Baker making 19M but I don't want to derail the conversation. Every conversation I have with a Browns fan invariably comes back to look at what he did last year. Okay, let's look. *In 2020 Baker Mayfield dropped back 538 times. Among players that played at least 15 games he ranked 17th out of 20 QBs among number of drop backs. *In 2020 Baker Mayfield completed 62.8% of his passes. Among QBs that played at least 15 games he ranked 20th out of 20 QBs in completion percentage. *In 2020 Baker Mayfield threw for 3,563 yards. Among QBs that played at least 15 games he ranked 17th out of 20 QBs in passing yards. *In 2020 Baker Mayfield threw 26 TD passes. Among QBs that played at least 15 games he ranked 12th out of 20 QBs in passing yards. *In 2020 Baker Mayfield threw 8 INTs. Among QBs that played at least 15 games he ranked 5th out of 20 QBs in interceptions. *In 2020 Baker Mayfield was pressured 142 times. Among QBs that played at least 15 games he ranked 15th out of 20 QBs in total pressures. *In 2020 Baker Mayfield completed 62.8% of his passes. Among QBs that played at least 15 games he ranked 20th out of 20 QBs in completion percentage. *In 2020 Baker Mayfield's average time to throw was 2.95 seconds. Among QBs that played at least 15 games he ranked 5th out of 20 QBs in average time to throw. *In 2020 Baker Mayfield's threw the ball 30.1% of the time using play action. Among QBs that played at least 15 games he ranked out 7th out of 20 in % of play action passes. *In 2020 Baker Mayfield's threw for 1,371 yards using play action. Among QBs that played at least 15 games he ranked 8th out of 20 in passing yards using play action. *In 2020 1,371 out of his total 3,563 yards (38.5%) were generated using play action. Among QBs that played at least 15 games he ranked 3rd out of 20 in % yards generated using play action. I have to cut this short. Will return.
If you take the savings and spend it on talent at WR, I can see a case being made... The only rumor I've heard is that if and when the Vikings blow everything up, supposedly we will go after Cousins. I've gotta be honest, that doesn't excite me at all. Obviously people are making the connection with he and Stefanski. Personally, I'd rather have Baker... Now if the Browns wanted to go after someone like Tyler Huntley to challenge Mayfield a little bit, I'd be all for it....
Aah, well look at the bright side, at least ya didn't have a 1-31 stretch in that time frame somewhere. I think it's safe to say for obvious reasons that as fan bases, we look at division titles and post season appearances very very differently.... I go back to the late 70's as a Browns fan old enough to remember, and last season's wildcard W in Pittsburgh was only the 5th playoff game the Browns have won in that time frame...
This is once again failing to recognize scheme and system, but sure... I guess he could have averaged 301.4 YPG like Deshaun Watson who went 4-12 in 2020. Or 289.1 YPG like Matt Ryan (4-12), or 251.0 YPG and a whopping 1-7 record like Gardner Minschew.
So... are QB's suppsoed to throw for 300+ yards per game (on average)? Because three years during that timeframe, Ben led the NFL in YPG which earlier you argued was the requirement. But then you say that he didn't go far enough in the season/post-season... so... do yards and individual statistics not matter?
Right now, Cousins is just a more expensive healthy version of Baker. If Baker gets healthy, he will be a younger, less expensive version of Cousins. We could win with Cousins in this system. When it comes to close comparisons, I love Baker's passion for the game and his toughness. I don't think Cousins would have been playing with a broken clavicle, but who knows. Hopefully we will all looks back on this in 15 years when he is getting ready to retire and say, "remember early in his career when Baker played with a broken clavicle? Little did we know he would end up as good as he did." Wishful thinking, but as of this posting, he is still my QB. I still hope he becomes everything I think he can be.
Case Keenum called Mayfield one of the "gutsiest" players he's ever played with. I'll say this. There is no question that Baker plays with heart, guts and a certain "chip on his shoulder" mentality. Sometimes to a fault. Nobody can ever question his tenacity though or willingness to do what it takes to play on Sundays. I think there are a lot of QB's that would have "checked out" in the same set of circumstances that Baker endured this season.
