Half-drunk on wine afternoon rant time. Its a 'no' for me. Not because I don't think he's worth a chance nor talented. I can't stand Anthony Miller OR Javon Wims and want something, nay, anything else on this roster at WR4/5 (paging Riley Ridley) and would welcome this kid instead. Both should have been cut when they couldn't follow the simplest of instructions not to engage Gardner-Johnson in the "playoff" game ass beating New Orleans gave them--who they knew that he was going to instigate/talk shit/grabass intentionally to get under their skin and part of the gameplan was to ignore/de-escalate/walk away. Wims for dropping a wide-open TD should have been cut at halftime. As for Harry...Where does he fit? Nagy's offense (the Andy Reid offense) is about speed at the WR position that's lucky enough to have Allen Robinson being an exception to the rule/elite size/possession WR who you can plugin because he always gets open. Harry is a 6'4 possession guy. He's also been injured--so you don't really know what he is to this point going into his 3rd year in the league. I'd be willing to part with Wims or Miller, but I can't imagine BB wants either of them. Meaning you have to give up draft capital--which is already limited thanks to Pace's trade boner. Javon Wims is depth/a 4th or 5th WR on the depth chart, after what I'll assume will be ARob WR1, Mooney WR2, and Goodwin WR3. Anthony Miller is your option for WR4/5. That--and I'm not even counting Jimmy Graham or Cole Kmet or the RBs because I forget Cohen comes back from the ACL and the bears signed the KC kid who was also a pass-catcher out of the backfield during their superbowl run the other year on top of Monty--who got more passes this past year due to injury but nonetheless is a RB1--so he's going to be on the field for a good chunk of pass plays to begin with. That--and Harry's agent said he wants out of New England because of "lack of opportunity" when he's....New England's 4th/5th option after Nelson Agholor, Jacoby Meyers, and Kendrick Bourne (and Jonnu Smith/Hunter Henry at TE now on top of James White as their pass-catching specialist back). Not touching the fact that this is the time of year EVERYBODY from drafted/undrafted kids this year, last year, and in years past to try and make a roster with a gripe about "lack of opportunity." He wants a trade because he doesn't want to be the 4th/5th WR or 5th/beyond option in New England, so making him a WR 4/5 option here--a 6th/7th overall target here--for more draft capital makes sense how?
I generally agree with all this. I agree 1000% about Wims and Miller - two guys who I used to especially root for and now want gone yesterday. I think the only fit / appeal that works for both parties is as an audition for Robinson's replacement. If you can find someone to provide relief to Pace's gruesome mismanagement of the cap, it's worth the trade. The big issues there are that we know there's presently a big gap between what Robinson has done and what we've seen from Harry, and that Pace doesn't have much draft capital left to work with after he did his usual thing. I wouldn't be behind the trade as part of my normal judgement, but taking into account the fact we're so screwed on the cap because of Pace, I can see the rationale they might use. At this point, as much as I hate Pace, I wouldn't get too upset - I expect him to do things I disagree with.
Normally i would prob be a no to this. A 1st round pick crying for a trade rather than fighting his way up a depth chart that was already devoid of talent is not an appealing proposition. But i agree with parts of what dline and pat said. I think you can look at this as a low cost shot at ARob's replacement. I don't want ARob replaced, but i also dont see him on the team a year from now. There is potential in letting Harry get a fresh start and try to grow with a legit #1 on the other side taking a lot of the heat off. Also, if this kid has a brain he must realise he has one more legit shot on another team and if he flops then he's out the league, so the motivation should be there. Also, i too still want those bums Miller & Wims the fuck off the team. One of them and a 7th, even a 6th and i would do it. I'd try to shift Wims first personally cos he really doesnt give you anything, Miller does at least have some innate talent even if he rarely hooks it up. But that might be the reason it would actually take Miller to get it done. Im fine with that too.
So these are the generic bears fans' responses to why keeping Robinson longterm is tricky. Money. Also value of WR after this past FA where Godwin/AR signed tag deals and Golliday got 18 mil per year. I don't buy it. Pace may have fucked the cap this year, even though spotrac has the bears at 5.5 (OTC has them at 6 mil) in space presently for 2021. For 2022? Spotrac has them at 38 million, of course this number is subject to change because you can cut Robert Quinn and Nick Foles both and have cap savings outweigh the deadcap to give you about 11 mil more in cap room should Quinn be blocked frequently again and Nick Foles being the most expensive 3rd string QB in the modern era. After the cap dipped this year--most think it will rebound and raise for next year--obviously, we'll jump off the bridge/dissect that when we get there. We know Robinson is up for an extension, but who else is a priority after this season? Bilal Nichols and James Daniels for young guys headline after ARob. Then Anthony Miller and Alex Bars before a slew of 1 year contract guys. Akiem Hicks is the lone vet/otherwise notable name and I think he's gone after Edwards got paid and Nichols in theory about to be. I don't buy it because 38 mil pays Arob 18-20 per year comfortably with lots of guaranteed money years 1-3 of his contract basically paying him in 3 years what he's made being in the league for 7--where I defy you to think/explain how he wont be a 1000+ yard WR1 short of injury from his age 28-31 years even if he declines a little; also gives Nichols a bridge contract (think like Akiem Hicks' 1st deal here of 2 years 10-11 mil with higher-end being what RRH got) unless he goes balls out Aaron Donald out of price range--which is hard to see happen because he/Hicks/Edwards will be rotating. We all agree on Anthony Miller not being here (especially if Robinson is retained). James Daniels is the wildcard to me here because I can see a rough year leading to him being where Germaine Ifedi was when he left Seattle/a 'prove it' 1 year deal under a million a year. I can also see him playing to be a 6+ mil a year interior OL if he balls out. Tons of fans on reddit/ccs have soured on him after the pectoral injury/Whitehair playing better when Daniels was out at LG and Mustipher getting reps at C, where he was mostly decent. This year will tell. Long story short--the headliners assuming ARob at 20 mil a year (another franchise tag is 23 mil), Nichols at 5-8ish, and Daniels--in theory--give you plenty of cap room before you'd need to cut deadweight/Foles & Quinn to get a few small/mid FA deals and 2022 draft squared away. It can be done easily. And I think 'money' is misguided by some fans, especially given Ryan Pace's present direction/moves attempted in the past. Not to dig up an old scar--but Ryan Pace offered Alshon Jeffrey more money to resign here than he took on a 'prove it' deal for Philly years ago, Jeffrey didn't take then and there's no guarantee Robinson will if Pace gives him an offer. Figure that with Pace trying to shift the spending of the overall team going from being 65-35 Defense to offense--this is the kind of move that flips the script of being a bunch of highly paid defenders. Buying low on N'Keal Harry is something I expect Jerry Angelo to do whereas Pace has tried (granted our sample size is Alshon Jeffrey) to keep a talented commodity that isn't a quarterback on offense. As for Harry, its a hard/stupid sell to go from a proven commodity that the bears can afford to a guy drafted in the 1st round with 81 targets in 2 years and who is buried behind retreads and smurfs in the WR room under Belichick and wants out.
My take on it is a bit simpler - I think viewing him as anything other than exactly what he is makes it more difficult to view him at his actual worth to the roster. There’s no reason to make him out as Allen Robinson’s replacement. That sets a standard on him before he even puts on a jersey. It sets a bar that doesn’t need to be set. If you get him for a 5th or less you’re simply adding a body to the wide receiver room at that value, meaning he’s an upside shot/reclamation project. Team’s take a chance on high ceiling players with question marks at that point in the draft with some regularity so it’s not an unreasonable price to pay for a former first round pick that has underperformed in a circumstance that doesn’t have a track record for developing big body receiver types.
I stated no, but if you could get him for a low draft pick 5 or lower, then I would change my mind for the very reason stated by @Tim . Anything higher will be an over payment based on his inability thus far to crack the starting lineup, forget about his lack of stats. 9 starts last year, in year two, is unacceptable and puts up a huge red flag in my book. As someone else already stated, he isn't willing to work to get into that lineup, he would rather be traded to a situation where he doesn't have to work any harder... Well, that isn't Chicago. He would probably have to work even harder with a 5th rounder already outplaying him in his rookie campaign. That's who he would have to beat out to start and I'm not sure it would happen. Again, for a 5th or 6th rounder, that's the type of player you hope to get in the draft anyway, so I would do it. I just think the Patriot way is to get more trade value, not fair trade value. I think they would rather see how he develops after spending a first rounder on him, rather than dump him for a low draft pick after two disappointing seasons.
After reading this post I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone because Harry sounds a lot like Kevin White, and didn't we venture that path already? White was released outright by the Bears without compensation after the 2018 season for good reason, but yeah let's compensate someone else for their own bad decision they made in the 2019 draft. It will be like a participation trophy. I mean that's the Bears MO, isn't it? Give away draft capital like retailers used to give away S&H Green Stamps. Just wondering has anyone ever seen those two on the same field together?
Possibly, but through my own set of tinted glasses - White didn’t score out predraft as a first round pick. Harry did, but giving up a 5th or later for a player that I would personally be comfortable with paying the price on is not something that I’m trying to sell to the Bears board. Basically, I think it’s a fair price for an upshot at a player that may not fit into his current environment. If someone disagrees with that take, I can dig it.
I'm going to disagree. It seems I remember him grading out as a 1st round pick but certainly not in the top half of the first, and certainly not at #7.
Actually after looking at a couple of sites White rated higher than Harry. Walter football a site I respect had White in the top 15 and Harry Late 1st early 2nd. What sites do you use?
This site, where I make my own yearly rankings. White scored out as a mid to late second round prospect.
In theory, this is a good plan--provided you don't set the bar at Allen Robinson/WR1 production. The problem is--the bears don't have a 1st or a 4th next year and by way of comp picks, you felt good about RRH and Cordarrelle Patterson signing elsewhere before Pace dropped cash on Angelo Blackson, Jeremiah Attaochu, Andy Dalton and Marquis Goodwin. So a 5th or later (we can agree do disagree--but I don't see BB selling low like this, I see him holding on until he pops or sucks to the point you wait for him to get cut then give him a tryout spot) puts you further behind in draft capital on a team--to put it very nicely--is in transition/not a present playoff contender (especially not if Rodgers returns in Green Bay). That's not conducive to building an effective roster. At all. And on top of all of it, where do you put him in the Chicago WR room? We both agree with Robinson, he's your WR1. Time may tell with Darnell Mooney/"sophomore slump," but right now you can't bet on Mooney to regress to not put him at WR2. They paid Goodwin to be a returner/slot speed WR, something they didn't have on the roster and there was no need to continue the Cordarrelle Patterson experiment because the guy just can't play offense. They're keeping Anthony Miller, just drafted another speedy/shifty slot WR/return man Newsome (who's out with a collarbone injury but back by preseason), and Javon Wims. Oh yeah, he'll also have to fight for targets with Jimmy Graham, Cole Kmet, and the RBs--especially Tarik Cohen. Ouch. So I agree coming out of the draft in 2015, White was overrated because he was a project guy, but mid-late 2nd rounder makes me think he looked at your wife funny in a bar one night. Coming out of WV, all of his tape showed that he was a big, elite-speed WR who could get deep in secondaries quickly/cause fits for 5'10 guys trying to cover him and win jump balls. His entire clinic against Alabama in 2014 was just that. Route running, awareness, hand fighting with better DB talents jamming him, and maximizing catch radius were things that needed polishing at the next level because he was a 1-year wonder--but if he could put the rest together, he was that rare size/speed threat at WR that everybody wants. That alone was a 1st round grade, top 1/2 depending on what you value at WR. Amari Cooper was the rightful top WR but after him? It was White to lots of people. Because I/many couldn't justify putting Nelson Agholor, Devin Smith, Devin Funchess, Dorial Green-Beckham, Phil Dorsett and Davante Parker (all WRs in 2015 drafted after Kevin White until the end of the 2nd round) ahead of him coming out of college with the information we had then. The only guy close to White's production was Agholor (and Cooper/Tyler Lockett who I'm not counting). Green-Beckham they thought also had the rare size/speed combo but he got hurt too much. Funchess was (and still is) an unathletic statue. Phil Dorsett only had 36 catches in 2014 for Miami (with no injuries)/he had speed but no size (DLine probably remembers him better than I). Devin Smith was a home-run hitting, top speedy 'go' route guy at Ohio State who lacked everything else, but could bumslay the B1G conference. Parker was a 6'3 WR who played with no physicality, no top-end speed/athleticism, and hadn't a clue with route running and got no help because Louisville's QB situation in 2014 was two guys masquerading as garbage.
The front end of the site is under construction but I went ahead and opened up that page for you - NFL Draft – 2015 Wide Receivers – Live 4 Sport Network Cooper was the only player that ended up with a first round score and it's a solid one. Parker, White, Perriman and Lockett all had what is equivalent to a second round score so Kevin was probably closer to a mid than a late second.
Parker would be the only one of those names that I had ahead of White, but he didn't have a first round score either.
To be fair, I'm not taking any of that into consideration, and it's definitely something that should be factored in. My opinion came from the point of value and how it should be viewed if a trade for Harry would happen for a price that I would be willing to pay.
I nearly said this in reply to Tim but it seemed so obvious as to be not worth mentioning. Of course the bar cannot be set at ARob production, thats just asking to fail. Assume he's got 2years of rookie deal left, you give him that time in the hope that he can develop into a 60+ balls a season WR. No its not gonna compare to ARob for raw numbers, but A- He eats up less cap that can then go elsewhere and B- I imagine you hope others improve their own numers ie Mooney, Kmet. All of that is based on the pragmatic assumption that Robinson leaves in a year. Its not the way i would've handled the position at all the last 2years. As for where Harry fits in the WR room, not too difficult. ARob and Mooney are set in stone. For the #3 spot, Goodwin may be a good bet to win but he's also missed plenty of football in his time. Wims doesn't even come into this imo. So basically Harry and Miller are in a cage match for PT. Given his efforts in NE Harry doesnt cover himself in glory re this, but as mentioned earlier there is added motivation in his new situation. And for Miller also tbh. He's so lucky to still be on the team he's not even in the last chance saloon anymore. He's in some back room drinking knock off moonshine. This is an excellent reason why you don't make this move. Going into the next draft with that few draft picks is a really tough sell. I didnt know that. When i said he wasn't worthy of a 1st round pick here i got laughed at. One year of actual impressive production was all he had, describing "all of his tape" is more than a little misleading. He was massively inexperienced, incredibly raw, ran a fraction of an actual NFL route tree and displayed very little intangible "feel" for the position. Decent enough team mate seemingly, but the red flags were all over White's game at the next level. The athletic traits which allowed to overpower college level competition always looked likely to be much less effective against NFL calibre defenders. Taking a player like that top10 overall always looked beyond terrible. The argument could def be made for a late 1st round flyer if it was a position of need + given the other options listed in that draft + securing the 5th year option etc. If the Bears had taken him 7th in round 2(i know he wouldn't have been there im just saying) it would've been far more acceptable. The specific case of White really highlighted many of the flaws in the overall NFL draft process imo. In terms of where he was over drafted he was proven right in declaring for that draft. In terms of developing his own game tho, to increase his chances of having a sustainable NFL career, its highly likely White would've benefitted from waiting to declare. 2 years college ball was not enough. A third year could've helped him.
