Looking Forward to the 2021 AFC North

I can use your own argument against you...

So you are saying the team surrounding the QB matters?

Baker took over a team that was 1-31 before he arrived...
He has since improved in every statistical category above despite being in his 4th offensive system in 3 years..

Jackson took over a team that was 8-8 and 9-7 in their previous two seasons...
He declined in every statistical category you mentioned above in year 3 of development.

See how we can just do this all day long?


I used to do this day in and day out, argue how one player is better than another. Truth is, there isn't a way to really put an argument together until they are 5-8 years into their career. If they are on their second team, most likely they aren't what they were supposed to be when they came out. If they are still on their drafting team and leading them to the playoffs consistently, I would say that was a great choice to be your franchise QB.

Baker just won the first playoff game for Cleveland in over 25 years. Sam Darnold is on his second team in the same amount of time. I would feel comfortable saying, I don't think Mayfield would have made it to the playoffs had he been drafted by the Jets instead of Cleveland. I would feel comfortable saying, I don't think Lamar Jackson would have made it to the playoffs if he had been drafted by the Jets.

Yet, Cleveland has done what the Jets fail to do, they have finally gotten a front office willing to build a team around a QB.. The Ravens have had that since The Great Ozzie Newsome was hired as GM.

(edit) To put this into perspective, Ozzie was brought on as GM in 1995/1996 I believe, the Ravens have won 16 playoff games in that span. the Steelers, whom everyone seems to think is the epitomy of consistency in the AFC North has won 17 games in that same span.

So, is it the franchise or the QB that is making all of this happen? We will see..

Ben is at the end of his career, Kevin Colbert has been the GM since 2000 and seems like he will be continuing into the future past Ben..If he were smart, he would end it now on a high note.

Ozzie has already stepped down, but not before he anointed Lamar Jackson the leader of this offense.

The Browns are in a new situation all the way around, two decades of losing will do that to a franchise.

We can watch as two division leaders transition from old long tenured regimes and see if the teams just continue to win despite these major changes, or if a team in it's infancy that seems to have the right pieces in place in their front office can rise above and become that new norm for winning.

It's going to be an interesting thing to watch develop.

 

Browns trading Kareem Hunt sometime soon? Is this breaking news?

 

Actually, IMHO, Harris has decent chance at finishing as the #2 rusher in the AFCN. He doesn't have to share carries with the #1 rusher.

 

Behind that offensive line, though?

 

Yep. Harris is an Alabama RB that's a lot closer to Derek Henry than Trent Richardson.

 

I'm fine with this. My opinions on things won't change just because they don't benefit my player.

When you're trying to use team wins in a discussion about who is the better passer, yes. As you may have noticed, I didn't bring up wins once this whole discussion even though I knew that benefitted Lamar in the NFL.

I agree he did both of these things you mentioned. Notice, I haven't said anything negative on Mayfield.

Yeah, most players struggle to maintain MVP level of performance.

I honestly don't see. You haven't actually turned my argument against me. My argument has been that Lamar is a better passer than Baker because he has the better career numbers in completion %, yards per attempt, TD %, INT %, QBR, and PASSER rating......even though Baker has a better offense around him without question. You brought up wins, I countered, you countered. Doesn't change the fact it's your argument.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, per se. I am curious though on your opinion of Sam Darnold now. Seems like you're saying the Jets held him back.

I think it can be both honestly. Jackson took over midseason and the team was 4-5 when he stepped in. He and Gus Edwards come in and the team goes 6-1 playing of their strengths at the time. The next season, the team goes on a franchise record 12 game win streak to win a franchise record 14 games. The next season they win 11 games. Baltimore has never been considered an offensive power house but with Jackson they are winning games with offense. In fact, since he's become a starter in week 11 of 2018, they've had the highest scoring offense in the NFL. The Ravens team is good and consistent, but the stuff just mentioned is the QB no question.

For Cleveland, it'd be hard to take credit away from Mayfield. He's stabalized the QB position, which has been a concern in Cleveland since......idk, Derek Anderson? He started strong, declined his 2nd season, but got back on track his 3rd. He's gotten Cleveland to the playoffs for the first time since, I think, 02. That said, you also have to acknowledge that Cleveland's front office put talent upon talent upon talent for him on offense. So yeah, I think it can be both.

No disagreement here. That said, I think a lot of people are sleeping on Ben. Not saying you are, but many seem to be. He had a very good 2020 for a 38 year old QB coming off an elbow injury. Pittsburgh has enough weapons around him to keep him dangerous so long as that line holds up.

Also.....you never actually answered my question on what criteria you've used to judge QBs passing before and why you aren't using it now

 

and playing catch up every week, his carries will be cut short...

 

How do any of us know that? We thought Trent Richardson was a lot closer to Derek Henry, not Trent Richardson..until he actually entered the NFL..

 

Fixed it for Ya.

 

For Harris, I think his biggest question will be team philosophy on offense. Over the last 4 seasons, Ben has averaged 40 pass attempts per game. That will hold Harris back if it continues

 

Fixed: We thought -- and not *we* but analysts and GM's -- Trent Richardson was a lot closer to Adrian Peterson.

 

I think the Jets have held back a lot of players over the years. They have not built a winning roster or implemented a winning attitude in the locker room. The Ravens have and the Steelers have on both counts. The Browns are moving in the right direction, but it is way too early to tell.

The Jets are not moving in the right direction until there are signs they are moving in the right direction. Just drafting players and expecting to win because of it is a losing mentality.

Honestly, I would feel better about Darnold's chances if Ron Rivera were still there. I know not many think too highly of him, but I don't know anything about Matt Rhule, so the jury is out. Scott Fitterer is also brand new to the NFL GM office, so it will be fun to watch their development. I'm pretty sure we won't know in 2021..They could just as easily go downward spiral as casting major improvement. Darnold would be an easy scapegoat in case of the former.

This is not an indictment on Darnold. I didn't really like him coming out. Though if I am remembering correctly, I think I did have him as my 2nd ranked QB. That said, I know I did not want the Browns to draft him. I was definitely adamant that I wanted Baker Mayfield and no one else in that draft. I will stick by that until proven wrong.

Again, I think you are taking my statements as arguments.. They aren't, I was just trying to make my opinion know through posts that it is too early to even have an opinion on who is the best passer at this point of their careers.

I've matured into a belief that there are too many variables to accurately judge a player before their career is complete. The body of work will encompass many changes in environment, how did they handle change/adversity, etc. I used to fill my empty time debating everything I could get my hands on. These days, I don't have as much empty time, so I have a much different perspective on things.

Stats are great, especially when used in making an argument. But they can be dispelled in some (many?) cases using other mitigating factors.

Take two parallel teams and you can have a more healthy debate. In this case, the teams are only now coming into a parallel. They are currently equals in build quality on paper. The Browns haven't proven longevity yet, but the next several years will be a better indication of individual play, rather than the two situations each player were cast in to start their career.

There are obvious reasons why Baker came in as the #1 overall pick. He wasn't drafted because a good team traded up 20 spots to land him. There are also obvious reasons why Ozzie traded up from the second back into the first for Lamar. He saw something 31 other teams didn't and as usual, he was right.

 

Two can play that game

 

Good point.

Counter Point: Would Ben have averaged 40 pass attempts per game with a decent running game? We will never know.

 

I appreciate the post.

 

Good question, hard to say. He still averaged 37 attempts per game in 2017 when they had Le'Veon Bell healthy. I think the Steelers have simply been trending in the direction of the NFL overall. Even Bell topped out at 21 carriers per game with Pittsburgh. Fortunately for them Ben has been able to handle it overall

 

Imagine being such a loathsome piece of poop that you (1) get the facts wrong, (2) misconstrue your own incorrect facts, and (3) quote a Family Guy clip as a grown-ass man.

 

My point was simply that Baker is a better passer than Jackson. It's not even close.....I like both QB's, but they do things very differently. One relies mainly on his arm talent, and one relies mainly on his ability to run. Somehow Raven fan wants to refute this. It's nonsense.

 

Imagine being such a loathsome piece of poop that your best argument against someone -- because your own is so weak -- is to point out a time they made a statement 14 years ago that didn't work out.

Then doubling down on your own loathsome 'poopiness' by obfuscating metrics like "QBR" for being a good quarterback.

To finally righteously self-own by admitting your teams weapons are poop, which further supports the premise that your "quarterback" has to throw the same number of passes in a season that Wildcat running backs did back in the day - coming full circle to confirm that your "quarterback" is in fact, a running back.

 

And to the losers (@dlinebass5)...

My 2017 running back ratings (in terms of talent) were: 1 - Leonard Fournette, 2 - Joe Mixon, 3 - Christian McCaffrey, 4 - Alvin Kamara, and 5 - Dalvin Cook. I said, ad nauseum, that Kareem Hunt was "my guy". I correctly called out that Cook would be drafted in the second round, Mixon would be taken in the second round (he went #48 and I said #43), Fournette would be taken in the Top 5, and McCaffrey would be drafted No. 8 overall. Said I wouldn't draft Mixon unless (1) Dee Haslam made a public endorsement, and (2) he was available in the third round because eventually, talent will always trump character issues at some point in the NFL.

Please do some homework. I keep all my receipts. And yes, I realize this means you'll have to learn how to read.

... and haters (@ravens_R_#1) out there...

My 2018 quarterback ratings were: 1 - Baker Mayfield, 2 - Lamar Jackson. I have consistently said that Lamar Jackson is an incredible talent and could be one of the greatest if they put the correct structure and team around him. I have repeatedly given the Ravens credit by allowing him to use his legs to beat teams (Lord knows, he's burned the Browns *multiple* times with them). But please don't toss out some stats from a team with no coaching turnover, a plan in place, and consistency where they ask a dynamic weapon to rarely throw the ball and most success comes off bootleg plays or those where he buys time with his legs to find a *wide* open receiver with one that has had nothing but turnover, multiple coaches, no real plan in place until this past season and somehow equate the two systems as being exactly equal.

Jarvis Landry, the wide receiver, out-performed Lamar Jackson at the throwing skills challenge at the Pro Bowl. He's not a good quarterback in terms of throwing a football (1) accurately, (2) on time, and (3) from a pocket. He is an elite weapon in an excellent position who can do extraordinary things with the football in his hand who's compiled an insane W-L ratio and won an NFL MVP award unanimously.

When I say he's an elite running back - I mean that. It's actually a compliment.

Do I think he's a good quarterback? No. Not yet. And I'm thankful for that because if he gets there, the entire NFL is in trouble.