MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACK

You are contradicting yourself here. If Super Bowls have nothing to do with it why bring up Kelly making 4? Are you saying Bradshaw shouldn’t be in?

 

Simple, if you're following along . . .

He mentioned Jim Kelly because his play over four seasons contributed to the Bills advancing to 4 Super Bowls.

Same for Terry Bradshaw. (Except I suspect the "Steel Curtain" probably contributed more.)

 

Bucs remain undecided about whether to keep Jameis Winston...



Jameis Winston recently underwent LASIK surgery to improve his eyesight. The Buccaneers, though, still don’t have a clear vision about whether Winston is their quarterback of the future.

Coach Bruce Arians admitted Thursday the team still is evaluating what to do at the position, with Winston scheduled to become a free agent.

“Really, nothing has changed,” Arians said, via Rick Stroud of the Tampa Bay Times. “What’s Door No. 2? You know? Can we make the one we have better? All those things you go through right now.”

Winston became only the eighth quarterback ever to pass for more than 5,000 yards in a season, with his 5,109 yards in 2019 the eighth-most in NFL history. (Drew Brees has had five 5,000-yard passing seasons.)

Winston also threw 30 touchdowns, but offset that with 30 interceptions and five lost fumbles. Seven of his interceptions were returned for touchdowns, the most pick-sixes thrown in the league.

Can the Bucs coach the turnovers out of Winston? Or, after five seasons, is it time to move on from the former No. 1 overall pick?

Tampa Bay is weighing its options, seeing if it can upgrade over Winston or if he is the best choice for another year. Several big-name quarterbacks, including Brees, Dak Prescott, Philip Rivers, Tom Brady and Teddy Bridgewater, are scheduled to become free agents.

But how many of those actually become available?

“You’re just sitting there waiting to see is there someone available?” Arians said. “Is he a better option?

“And then, that’s the problem: You get about three days to decide. The legal tampering period. Is somebody going to get let go? What’s the trade values? It’s really monotonous right now, because you don’t have any answers.”

Exactly.

This offseason has “quarterback chaos” written all over it, with the Bucs among the teams in line for the carousel.

NBC

 

Thank you. I thought it was clear, maybe I'm mistaken.

Kelly was a hell of a QB who got to four Super Bowls, but would his individual stats rank him among the leagues best? He ranks 27th in passing yards behind contemporaries such as Vinny Testaverde. And NO ONE here is arguing that Vinny Testaverde should be in the hall of fame. And for the record, I think Kelly is deserving. Remember his first three seasons of pro football was played with the Houston Gamblers of the USFL.

Bradshaw, in my opinion, is one of those players who got in based on winning four Super Bowls despite his career stats and also, is deserving. He was perfect for his time. Loved the guy.

Namath won a Super Bowl and has no business being in the hof. His career stats don't support it. He got in strictly because he was "Broadway Joe", 1st AFL QB to beat an NFL team.

My point was, and is, that a win or loss in one or two Super Bowls should have nothing to do with being recognized as an all time great. "Super Bowl Champion" is just a nice addition to the plaque, not a qualifier to enter.

 

I appreciate the points that you make. I would have no argument against them.


I will make one observation about this discussion and I would be curious as to anyone's thought: I find it interesting that QBs are often judged by championships for their place in history while others are not. I agree with you about Bradshaw and Namath, although some may list other accomplishments on their part and the era that they played comes up too.

In the end, I don't know what makes a HOFer but I know one when I see one.......or not.

 

Well if the point of his post is that Super Bowls should have NOTHING to do with consideration then tell me what Kelly and Bradshaws credentials are separate from making it to 4 Super Bowls.

 

Reading comprehension isn't one of your strong suits, is it.

It's been stated (multiple times) that their play during the course of their careers contributed to their teams reaching the Super Bowl.

 

Yea I got that. Again. Since reaching Super Bowls doesn’t count. What individual accomplishments did they achieve to get them in the HOF? And to bring this back to my opinion of Eli being worthy. What did they accomplish that Eli did not?

 

I'm not the one who said it doesn't count. I believe I stated it shouldn't be the sole factor because winning a Super Bowl is a team effort. Raw individual statistics shouldn't be the sole factor either.

Someone earlier referenced Frank Gore's career rushing yardage and compared it to (Hall of Famer) Gayle Sayers' career rushing yardage. Obviously, Gore has more because he was in the NFL for over twice the number of years as was Sayers. If you break it down to an average per year - Gore averaged 1,023/year - Sayers averaged 708/year. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who thinks Gore is a better RB than Sayers. So, somewhere the "eye test" has to enter the equation.

That said, IMHO, the eye test says that Jim Kelly is a better QB than Eli Manning. Make no mistake - there are quite a few QB's in the HoF that probably shouldn't be there.

 

Separate from whether or not Eli is worthy to get in, I believe he will.

The writers are going to be split on it, similar to this thread, but he was a Super bowl winning, franchise quarterback for the largest media market in the world.

The memory of taking down an undefeated dynasty in true underdog fashion is going to be enough for a lot of voters.

His non-persona, persona is going to be endearing to a few as well, along with how he handled the drafting and ascension of Daniel Jones.

 

Maybe the HoF should adopt an Electoral College?

 

On a more serious note . . .

Maybe the issue is really who votes players into the HoF. If a player is going to be judged against his peers, then maybe a voting board should be made up of players and coaches - not sportswriters.

 

I always thought that would be ideal. Sportswriters can be biased and see with extreme tunnel-vision at times. I think a panel of peers is the way to go.

The selection process is always going to be imperfect, but id take the word of former players and coaches waaaaaaay before the writers. I just think their opinion holds more weight.
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In my opinion... Eli will get in and should be. I think I previously stated that. HOF not HOStats.

 

If it's really about 'Fame' then it should remain in the hands of the writers. They're the ones that have the most power over a player's career when it comes to shaping their legacy, so it's only fitting that they get to have the final say on entry into the hall.

If it's about actual on field play, statistics or other team qualities, the coaches and their peers would be the obvious choice. But if that's the case then it's no longer about 'Fame'.

 

Damn, cant get an argument from me on that either... it makes sense, to be honest. Maybe a 'meet me in the middle' decision of a panel that consists of writers, coaches, ex-players and the fans? Fans could have a say with an electronic vote.

 

The fans get to vote throughout the players career by how much attention they dedicate to them.

 

Well, other winning the Super Bowl or making the Super Bowl:

Terry Bradshaw led the league in passing TD twice; in TD % twice; in Y/A twice. He had a winning record in non-Super Bowl years, and made the playoffs four other times (winning two games).
Jim Kelly led the league in Completion % once, in TD passes once, in TD % twice, and in QB rating once. He had a winning record out side of those four years, and helped the team to three other playoff appearances (winning two games).

Eli was never even in the top 10 in completion %, never led the league in TDs, TD%, Y/A; other than 2015, when he was second in passing TDs, he was never even in the Top 3 in those categories. He had a losing record outside of the two Super Bowl seasons (didn't even have a winning record WITH the two SB years), and never won a playoff game outside of those two SB runs.

Look, if the "two SB wins" is serving as your automatic qualifier (especially considering the Giants were underdogs in both games and were up against an 18-0 dynamo in one of them), you're entitled to your opinion. But, if I'm factoring in Lyman's "eye test," Eli doesn't make it for me.

 

In regards to the HoF, stats don't tell the whole story and neither do Super Bowls...

Every man's career stands on it's own merit.

Take Fran Tarkenton for instance. Spectacular career. He owned every major passing record when he retired, but he never won a SB. He lost 3 of them in fact, but there was NEVER a question whether he was an NFL HoF'r......Pretty much the same can be said for Dan Marino. There were no rings, but also no doubts.

Ken Stabler threw 28 more int's than TD's in his career, but he was ultra-clutch in so many big games that it pretty much trumped all his bad shit. At least in the eyes of the voters it did....Hell he beat Tarkenton in a SB. Without that, I don't think he's in.....Who knows whether Eli will get in. If he does, he owes David Tyree .

 

In Eli's defense, was there ever another era when so many HOF worthy QBs spent their career together?

Eli had his brother, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers and Aaron Rodgers. All HOF worthy.

He has lived through the past two decades, where QB was king.

He will have to be compared to Russell Wilson, Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan from the past decade when trying to get in.. along with Michael Vick, Rich Gannon, Tony Romo, Steve McNair and Donovan McNabb from the previous decade.

Since he will not be a first ballot guy, he will also have to deal with the likes of the next group. No one knows who will emerge as the legends, but there are a couple that already have a foot hold like Patrick Mahomes and Carson Wentz(if he could stay healthy). Lamar Jackson could be the best of them all in the upcoming decade, a guy that might change the face of the NFL completely.


Will Eli get in the HOF? My money is on yes.. will it be earned, we could argue back and forth for months.

Fact is, if he gets in, it will be in a huge part based on his Super Bowl credentials. So whether or not some of you think it should be a factor doesn't really matter because none of you have a vote. What history shows us is that it does matter and that is why we have two sides to this debate.

His two wins over Tommy Terrific, garnering MVP in the process will be weighed and measured.

 

I agree that he gets in, I just don't think he deserves to. If he doesn't necessarily compare favorably with Peyton, Tom, Brett, Drew, Aaron, Russell, Ben...then maybe he just isn't HoF material.