I was having a talk last night with a really good friend of mine. We went to high school together a very long time ago and have maintained a solid friendship over the years even though we went in different directions in life. My friend was to seminary school after high school. He ultimately chose not to become a member of the clergy due to some philosophical differences he had with the leadership of the church. But he has maintained a close relationship to the religious community. He's spent a lot of time abroad assisting the poor in third world countries, was a theological youth teach for a period of time, and has spent the last twenty years as a director both a youth outreach program and adult rehabilitation clinic in the Chicago area. In the little bit of free time he actually gets he is a political activist that lobbies mainly for prison reform. He married in his mid 20's...raised 6 children...and he and his wife are still very happily together. Doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, doesn't really swear. Me...I'm an atheist that is twice divorced. I drink...a lot. I've never done hard drugs but I do enjoy marijuana and I've made swearing an art form. Twenty years ago I probably would have called myself a hopeful agnostic. But as I've gotten older...my conviction that there truly is no god, at least the biblical god that so many people pray to, simply isn't real. Today I'd consider myself a pretty adamant atheist. Last night I asked my friend....does he think life has a purpose? I accept that he believes in his god. He doesn't take the bible as a literal translation....he believes it to be an interpretation of signs and clues from god written down by very flawed men. That's a separate argument that I like to attack every so often. But he does believe in his creator. And I'm okay with that. But I asked him even with a intelligent creator....what's the purpose of all this? If there is an intelligent creator....why'd he create us? Was he bored? Lonely? Experimenting? What? His answer....after a rather long silence...was he doesn't know. And he doesn't think anyone knows. His best guess was maybe it's something that's revealed after you've moved on from this plane of existence....which was an interesting answer because despite all his faith this is a man who admits there's a possibility that while god is real...heaven isn't. On the opposite side, as an atheist, the argument from theists always turns to purpose of life. You can't be an atheist because life has no meaning, they will argue. But why? And where is the meaning just because a god supposedly exist? I freely admit I have no idea why we are here or how we got here. I believe science has given us many answers....all which lead to more questions that science continues to seek more answers for. So the big bang theory leads to the world as it is today....but that doesn't give a purpose or a meaning. And I'm....okay with that. Not truly okay because it sucks to know that I'm very likely to die without ever having an answer to the one question I'm sure every human in history has asked at least once. What's our purpose? What is this all about? Regardless of if you believe in a deity, and which one, or not....do you think life has a purpose? Do you have any theories on what that purpose is? Do you think humans will ever figure it out?
In the simplest shortest terms: Yes What is it? Beats the holy hell out of me. Though its possible we are just someones entertainment. Not while we are living. For the record: I consider myself a christian though I do not claim any particular group of Christianity (Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist ect). Nor do I claim to be a good Christian (I dont go to church on a regular basis and I swear like a sailor).
My immediate thought on this would be that my life has several purposes, though all of those may be attributed to selfish endeavors/narcissism, but I believe all of our deeds, even the ones that people view as selfless acts, are done because it is exactly what we wanted to do in the moment. For instance, my life prior to being a father compared to now is basically a version of myself that this rendition would vaguely recognize. Now I have very defined goals, which gives me a clear mind and creates an ease of purpose. So individually speaking, I know my life has purpose because of how my approach to life in both a present and future tense has changed and gained clarity. How that relates to selfishness/narcissism - I want to succeed in all of my endeavors to better enrich my family because it is deeply self gratifying. Is every decision I make based on whether or not it helps or hinders the two people I am charged with providing for? Absolutely, but to ignore the fact that I feel an immense sense of satisfaction at seeing the smile on their faces and knowing that they are cared for to the best of my ability would be simply turning a blind eye to a part of the reality for why I do the things I do for them. I love them immensely, which is why I do everything, but that feeling of love is my own and knowing that they care for me as deeply as I do them is the most gratifying feeling in the world. I'm pretty sure you meant purpose as defined by a creator, and I do believe in a creator or creation as an idea, but this is the best way for me to describe how I believe purpose manifests itself in anyone's life. My view of what the afterlife may be, how creation may have happened and what the realities of our world are compared to how we perceive them is too complicated to try and post in a forum thread for everyone to decipher. Basically, I keep my mind open to all possibilities and base my beliefs on my own personal understanding of them. I don't begrudge anyone there choice of worship or non-worship so long as it doesn't interfere with my own. I do take issue with anyone that tries to force their opinion on someone else as the only gospel (regardless of subject) or that closes their mind off to the possibility that they could be wrong. I believe in strength through empathy and of conviction based through traveling through life by your own standards while listening and learning to those you disagree with to better form your own opinion. Some of which I am absolutely certain comes from my Christian upbringing, but I am also certain a larger portion of it comes from my own personal life experiences. There is a passage in Hagakure that sums it up very well, basically saying that in order to better understand your own beliefs you need to have them tested by learning the beliefs of others. For myself, I apply that in just about everything I do, and I often learn more through cordial disagreement than I do in any other setting. Besides, when it's all said and done with I'm going to head out the door like Bob Seger at the end of the second verse of Ramblin Man: "You can have your f**king world. See ya round."
I did. But I do understand what you're saying. I agree with a lot of what you said...taking away the creator part. But I especially like this... I think this is a mindset more people should have.
Well if I'm right, and I like to think I am, when we die the screen just goes black and it's all over like the end of the Sopranos but without credits. So....this answer is doing nothing for me.
Let's remove the creator part and veer the conversation in a severe arc... What are your thoughts on the science behind the possibility of living within a simulation or the breakthroughs they have made when it comes to the possibilities of alternate realities within the same reality?
The simulation thing is interesting. I've read so many different viewpoints, stories, and articles about it since it started gaining steam the past few years. I will say that I don't buy it....but I also can't just discount it either. Seems unlikely and totally likely all at the same time. I've been a believer in the possibility of the multiverse for a long time. I think there's actually some tangible evidence for alternative realities...or realities existing on top of one another...stacked together on different frequencies like radio stations.
This sums up a proper view point on religion, IMO, if you are a non-believer. Where as the opposite should be the foundational point for believers as well, being the ability to have faith but still have the ability to question the source of it (both inner and outer). It has my attention because of the endless possibilities it creates for how our world has been created, how it may end and, to your original question, what our purpose as a species or even simply an event in time may be. The last part of this statement is what resonates the most with me. I read an article when I was 12 that had a few thoughts from someone that was discussing the idea of a change in the cyclic rate or speed rate at an atomic level could move us between planes. The book they were discussing was about Bruce Lee and some of his thoughts on martial arts as something other than a fighting style. It was more about being one with nature on a level more than simply being green, but understanding that we are all interconnected on a spiritual level that is grounded in metaphysical science. Basically, we are everything and everything affects us. The guy being interviewed was taking that and matching it up with what he perceived as hard science to back up the idea that we are all in motion in the same rhythm, but a change in the beat could switch us into a different level. Many levels, many speeds and many different outcomes for each was his intended point. It stuck with me and it's something that I still ponder on from time to time. The idea that we are so closely connected to the environment that we live in on an atomic level that whatever energy that the world possesses would ultimately influence us in a direct mirror of how we influence it may be simplified with the word 'karma', but if you include the vastness of the universe that has options and opportunity beyond our understanding, how much energy is available to us to grow far beyond where we are now? Will the light from here ever reach to there in time for us to achieve it? The universe is expanding faster than the speed of light so we will never be able to physically see the edges, meaning no matter how great of an understanding we have of the place we are we will never know what is yet to come. An infinite end to no end, or an infinite opening to never be passed through.
Yeah, you need to have an open mind and question your surroundings. Question everything. Because that's how you learn and that's how science got started. When I get high it makes me wonder if all the people inside the video games I play are also real. In which case I feel bad for what I've done to all the people in the Sims games over the years. Bruce Lee was way ahead of his time. For me it kicked off when I got really in science fiction was a teenager and then later on I studied actual science and the unified field theory. Around the same time period I would read a lot of Freud and Jung...and Jung's collective unconscious idea really stuck out to me. I have never been a believer in ghosts, psychics, and so on. James Randi taught me well in that department. But it becomes obvious our bodies, our minds, are pretty powerful and not at all simplistic. The world is layered and there are so many things around us we can't physically see. The idea that some of the unexplained phenomenon we see could be worlds bleeding over into each other is plausible to me. There's some proof this type of stuff. I mean...scientists have proven talking nicely to a plant will make it grow a lot better than just yelling and swearing at it all the time. Positive and negative energies are real. That insanely dumb book....The Secret....that got so popular isn't completely off guard. Not everyone is going to become a millionaire but positive thoughts and positive energy you put out does affect the world around you. And negativity does the same. I do think humans have yet to reach their true potential. I don't think we've even scratched the surface. Thoughts like this have kept me awake all night countless times.
Pretty deep convo, fellas. Interesting reading. Thought I'd just add my little bit, if you don't mind. Please take and add what you will. I'm not the kind to discount others opinions. I just like to add a little and take a little and find something to think about that may or may not change my views. I'd have to say I'm bordering on being atheistic. Just call it a very strong agnostic tendency with little to no belief in a "greater power". Never had much of a religious upbringing other than going to church when my Grandma visited when I was a wee lad. As for the meaning/purpose for life.....I think it's rather simple (for me). Forage and propagate the species just like any other animal that crawls/flies/swims across this planet. Mankind is the only creature that has the mental capacity to (sadly) make things more complicated than they really are/need be. With that mental acuity comes the complete and utter vanity and sense of ego that demands that we were put here for some purpose just because we hold dominion over all creatures (for the most part). Humans have conquered all biomes and have been able to leave this planet and return. I truly believe, at the gist of life itself, we are inherently no different than any other animal....other than the fact that mankind is the only one that shits where he eats/lives.....hence the piles of trash, plastic, pollution, etc..... As for the multiverse or it's possibility, I have to say I never really gave it much thought. Interesting as it is, I've just been content being "here in this one" and doing what I do. Love this. I'm just hoping that just maybe that the Rolling Stones "Paint It Black" plays in my mind as the screen fades when it's my time. As I said, take what you will. Leave the rest. It's been a thought provoking read.
Let me add...... I think for the most part I have chosen to make my own purpose/s (which somewhat goes hand in hand with "propagate the species" as you'll read soon). Like Tim mentioned, I choose my family as my purpose. To house, feed, comfort, teach, entertain, and keep safe is my family life to me. This hasn't always been the case. In my 20's it was quite different than it was in my 30's and 40's. And once the kids leave the nest, I'm sure my life's purpose will change a few more times.
I get this and I don't think you're wrong...but... Why were we put here to do that? Maybe it is kinda vain to ask....but was life created or simply accidentally formed just so we could eat, piss, shit, reproduce, and build stuff? I'm not saying there has to be more to the story....but doesn't there HAVE to be more to the story?
Yeah I mean my purpose in life has been similar. And it's when from raising my own children to helping raise my grandchildren. I think every singular person should find their own purpose. A lot of people choose not to and that's fine. But I think life feels more fulfilling when you can recognize your own. But singular purpose is different than a life's purpose. But does life have a purpose I mean...all life. Why does the universe exist? I don't really expect any of us to be able to answer it. I just wanted something new to talk about haha.
I just don't think there is any true purpose that explains it (for me). Why does this all exist? I haven't the faintest clue. It just does. Glad it does, though. Fortunately/unfortunately we are the only creature on this Earth that have the capacity to ponder this somewhat abstract idea. And I say unfortunately since we won't ever find out or if we do, we'll be dead and won't be able to share. I think my favorite line somewhat pertinent to this conversation was by Homer Simpson when he gave up church and stayed home on Sundays. When he was being pestered by Lisa about fearing for his immortal soul, he replied, "And if I'm wrong, I'll recant on my death bed." And you succeeded quite well.
To have a multiverse or purpose you have to have a creator period. For there to be other realities there has to be somebody manipulating it. To have a purpose you have to be created with a purpose, random life like the Big Bang would have produced aimless life positions. Our only purpose under the Big Bang would be to find our next meal which in these days is a lot easier with fast food and grocery stores. Random life is like weeds growing everywhere. What purpose do weeds have?
To kill off herbivores/vegetarians, who may eat them, with their pollen relying on allergies to obstruct breathing passages and slowly killing off said plant eaters. That is until said plant eaters with opposable thumbs created Claritin and asthma medications.
Possibly I guess. I don’t know. While I think a singular persons purpose can be important....I don’t see how creating life just so that life can have a purpose can be a thing. Especially when you consider the fact we weren’t the first life form to exist in the universe. Not even close. Life exist for an extremely long time before we came along. What was the purpose of the very first life to populate the universe or this planet?
