Looking forward to 2019, Browns Free Agency/Trades

No. Remember, Safety was the position where you couldn't sell yourself for a contract, last year. And Dorsey just signed a "troubled" player at RB, without even knowing what future discipline would entail. Dez didn't get signed because he didn't have it on-field any more.

 

Which is it? Do you not pay attention to the national media, or do you pay so much attention that you know that what one of them shares is largely inaccurate?

Just stay off the board if the people on here are so insufferable in your opinion.

 

Wait, what? What was the jump in your logic?

I stopped paying attention to the national media precisely because of inaccurate, baseless bullshit like Schefter's. I'm going to assume he's still doing his thing, because I saw him on TV before games a few times last year, and idiots on the forums still cite him. Correct me if I'm wrong, and national sports media has somehow become a bastion for responsible, sourced reporting.

 

You are talking a monetary value, not compensation value.

There are just as many interior linemen taken in the first round as WRs and QBs. That is where the trade value lies, not their contract amount. QBs are an anomaly all their own. There isn't a position in the NFL valued higher than finding a franchise QB, but once you get outside that top 15 rated QB list, the rest of the names would be valued MUCH lower than Kevin Zeitler or Odell Beckham.

Would you say that Zeitler would have a much lower trade value than Andy Dalton? Obviously the QB has a higher innate value, there are so few of them compared to guards. But when it comes to compensation value, Zeitler is going to bring more value in trade than an Andy Dalton will, even though Dalton is right on the cusp of that top 15 QB in the league in a QB starving league.

Beckham is good, he's also expensive. It's all relative to value. Zeitler is the 3rd highest paid interior lineman in the NFL, he is also rated just about as high as his pay indicates. Beckham is THE highest paid WR in the NFL, even though he has never achieved the highest rating at his position.

You can state your opinion all day long that Zeitler was supposedly a second rounder...Reality is, he was a first rounder.

Zeitler was a first round pick who lived up to his first round status and is 28 years old
Beckham was a first round pick who lived up to his first round status and he is 27 years old

As @SAS already stated, this should be an even up trade...except that as you stated positions have different compensation values...So, adding in a starting DE, who only averages 4.5 sacks per year and a 2nd round pick and 4th round pick, makes up the difference in compensation value for the position.

The market is what sets the trade value. If the Giants are looking to trade Beckham because of rebuilding, they still have to set the trade value. If the highest value offered is the Raiders offering the #27 and #66 pick in the draft, then you can look solely at pick value...or you can look at package and assign a value to that package. Are there any players the Raiders could add to make this more appealing?

Obviously we don't know what anyone is truly offering, all we can do is discuss the rumors of a trade offer and discuss that.

In this case, the rumor was the Browns offering Zeitler, Ogbah, #49 and #120....

I think I justified the value in that trade offer...you disagree. Maybe we should just leave it at that, because saying Zeitler was "supposed to be a second rounder" is not the reality that he was a first rounder and has lived up to his first round status.

They could wait for the Brown trade deal to come out, but they might also lose the best deal on the table if that team goes and gets Brown instead. Maximizing trade value when you are in the market is the name of the game. They might get less if they wait as well...what if Brown only brings the #35 pick from the Raiders (one of the rumors floating about). At that point, couldn't one deduce that Beckham's trade value then might only be twice that? (2) 2nd rounders, or a low first and mid 2nd?

It's a gamble either way.

 

Keep in mind. It wasn't John Dorsey that made Kevin Zeitler the highest paid Guard in football (at the time). That was the previous regime. Dorsey drafted Austin Corbett....So this really shouldn't come as a surprise. Maybe there is a blockbuster in the works.

 

I digress, I was wrong in stating there are just as many interior linemen drafted as wide receivers, here is the past several years.


2018 draft: 3 interior linemen, 2 wide receivers
2017 draft: 0 interior linemen, 3 wide receivers
2016 draft: 3 interior linemen, 4 wide receivers
2015 draft: 4 interior linemen, 6 wide receivers
2014 draft: 1 interior linemen, 5 wide receivers
2013 draft: 7 interior linemen, 3 wide receivers
2012 draft: 2 interior linemen, 4 wide recievers
2011 draft: 4 interior linemen, 3 wide receivers
2010 draft: 2 interior linemen, 2 wide receivers
Totals: 26 interior linemen and 33 wide receivers

So there are 21% more wide receivers drafted in the first round than interior linemen...but I also think it illustrates that interior linemen are valued in the first round, averaging nearly 3 taken per year.

It would also make up the difference in compensation using this rumored trade as the evaluator.

 

To wit...

I know we're talking about Eli Manning as his QB, but in 2018, Beckham gave the NFL:

124 targets (18th)
77 receptions (22nd)
1,052 yards (18th)
6 TD (28th)
13.7 yards-per-reception (34th)
6.4 receptions-per-game (11th)
87.7 yards-per-game (9th)

He cracked the Top 10 in one category (yards-per-game). Now, part of this was driven by him only seeing action in 12 games, which brings up another point... in five seasons, he's played in all 16 games once. Out of 80 possible games, Beckham has only started 56 and played in 59 (73.8%).

Between off-field distractions and injuries, he's missed a quarter of the time thus far in his career.

 

To add to this, Dorsey's Chiefs during his tenure only had one starter on the interior of the offensive line that wasn't playing on his rookie deal. 2015, he traded for Ben Grubbs who was in his last year of his current contract...every other year, the starting interior of the offensive line was current draft contract players. This could be coincedence, or we could see a pattern of what to expect in the coming years. Every interior linemen currently starting was signed to their current contract by Sashi Brown. Dorsey drafts interior linemen and then expects them to be starters by year two...hence, Austin Corbett starting in 2019...also maybe expect an interior linemen in the 2nd/3rd round of 2019 draft...

 

That's not what I said. This was one of several misunderstandings, in your post. I just don't have the time to deal with rehashing my own comments again and again until they're properly understood...

I alleged that you could take an interior OL in the second round and feel confident, assuming your talent evaluation is right. You said:

I pointed out that, until he was selected at the bottom of the first, every guess was that he was a second round pick.

If you could take the time to look up interior OL in the first round, I'm sure you could do so easily enough for the second. I'd wager you'll find a lot more interior OL selected in round 2 than round 1, even adjusting for the early QB bias.

I'm not conflating monetary or compensation value - I'm stating, as is borne out by every supporting fact and piece of evidence, that WR's are valued more highly than interior OL. Personally, I value the OL. But the league doesn't. There are not facts enough to support a debate between those positions.

 

That IS what you said, here is your post:

He was supposed to be a second rounder according to who? You? Because that isn't what reality we are living in...he was a first rounder.

Again, whose guesses are you talking about? You are fabricating an argument.

This is irrelevant, unless your argument is that the majority of those taken in the second round are in the top 5 interior linemen in the NFL. There was a reason Zeitler was a first round pick, and he has proven the Bengals right over the course of his career, which he is in the prime of.

The fact there might be twice or even three times as many interior linemen drafted in the second round matters very little unless you are going to show me that the majority of them are rated at or above Kevin Zeitler. This trade is based on him, not one of the 50 or so interior linemen drafted in the second round over the past 10 years. If one of those names were involved in a trade and he played at a first round level, then that makes sense, not random players from the second round.

I haven't stated that interior offensive linemen are valued the same as WR, that was SAS...I said the added compensation makes up the difference.

I stated that interior offensive linemen have first round value...and have given evidence to back that up.

I never said, this trade is stupid, they should be traded straight up because they are both top 5 at their position.

Again, you pick out my posts and simply want to argue against them consistently.

 

You are misunderstanding just about every single word and / or argument I make.

I just don't have the time for this. Cheers to you and your comprehension - I'll leave you to it.

 

Look, I am not saying this to make myself look superior, but my intelligence level has been scored pretty high. I don't think it is possible that EVERYTHING you write, I am merely misunderstanding and you are stating clearly enough for the layman to understand. That is your go to, I either misunderstand or change the meaning. I am confident in my comprehension as I have intelligent conversations all day in life. Something is amiss here, but I don't think it's my comprehension. I quote your posts directly and you still say I am twisting your words.

If you aren't stating your feelings are that you can simply draft interior linemen in the second round and you expect them to perform in the top 5 of their position, then what in the hell are you stating?

We are discussing a specific trade term in this rumor, which includes an interior lineman that has been rated in the top 5 of his peer group his entire career, not a random first round draft pick.

You can say that you believe the "average" second round interior lineman has a history of performing about the same as the "average" first round interior lineman. I wouldn't argue that...but we are talking about Kevin Zeitler, not an average interior lineman. You keep saying he isn't the same value as a QB or WR..I am not arguing that point..I argued he was valued as a first round interior linemen, a first round pick value.

If Odell is valued at (2) first round draft picks, then Kevin Zeitler makes up (1) of those (2) first round draft picks, that is all.

 

I can think of the top four interior oline right now make it five and every one of them was a first rd pick. Decastro, Nelson, zeitter, Martin & Yanda. There is no argument that these are the top five.

 

Would any of them be traded straight up for anything less than a first round pick?

 

No. But when you start trading them for stud skilled players they don’t seem to hold the value that they should.

 

No one knows because top guards aren't traded in the NFL, that's why Zeitler is making headlines.

All I was doing was justifying the pieces of the trade rumor, after other Browns fans said it was too high a price to pay for Beckham, then BWW comes in and calls the trade crazy the other way and starts arguing my points with points apparently unrelated to the subject at hand... I think the fact we have people on both sides calling it a crazy trade means the compensation is actually probably pretty close.

 

Also I think it would be extremely hard to replace these guys on their current teams. These are guys who will definitely be in the final votes for HOF when they hang them up. At least three will make the hall but all five have a good shot.

 

I agree, which is why I originally didn't want to accept the idea of the Browns trading Zeitler...however, they did draft a guard in the second round last year..IF they are seeing his progression to starting caliber, then you must take the trade talk serious.

 

Guards:



Centers:



Somebody might care to argue.

Also worth noting: Browns have the best interior offensive line in the NFL.

 

Browns also have the best running back and ninth-best running back in the NFL. With Haley/Kitchens, they produced the 14th most passing yards and 13th most passing touchdowns in the NFL. Under just Kitchens, they were the NFL's most prolific offense, had the number one receiver group, and had the second-most explosive NFL offense in NFL history beyond only the 2000 Rams.

Maybe they don't need Odell?