What is the worst kind of fan?

I think Peyton Manning did all but win a College National Championship. His Vols only got as high as 3rd in any given season.


EDIT: Oh yeah...he's also a lock first ballot HOFer...

 

Again...don’t look at accolades or team accomplishments....look at the individual.

Compare Namath in each season he played to the other QBs around the NFL in the same seasons....and then tell me he’s elite. If you’re honest...there’s no way you’d be able to do that.

The HOF is not an objective thing. It’s not black and white. Well they voted this guy in so he must be elite.....no. There can be bias and human error in the process. Popularity can play a role....off field stuff can play a role. Therefore it’s very subjective. And open to questioning and scrutiny.

 

Career winning percentage of .480 yeah thats elite

 

His first 5 seasons he was elite compared to his peers. Only after his wrist injury his 6th season did his career start to fall apart...The years he was actually able to play a full season he was right there.

Now, I will say, I am going off stat comparisons because I am not old enough to have seen him and his peers in their prime. Regardless, he merits the HOF based on his work when healthy against his peers. He was almost always right near the top in average yards per attempt.. He was usually near the top in overall yardage also in his healthy seasons, but it's hard to compare overall yardage when some QBs have 350 attempts and others only have 200 back then.

Joe Namath had the first 4,000 yard season in history back in 1969...it wasn't accomplished again until 1979 by Dan Fouts, the only QB to accomplish that in the 70's..Dan had 16 games compared to Namath's 14.

 

He led the league in yards because he dropped back to pass way more than anyone else. Not because he was superior to the other QBs playing. Because he wasn’t superior to them.

Look up all the stats you want...Namath wasn’t elite. And you won’t find a lot of fans old enough to remember those days that will tell you he was.

 

I don't even know where to start on that. We are, afterall, talking about the Pro Football Hall of Fame, No?

• Won a college national championship.
  • Other than his play at Alabama got him drafted into the NFL, this has no bearing on his professional career whatsoever.
  • It's a TEAM accomplishment - not an individual accomplishment.
  • Craig Krensil won a college national championship also. Was he "elite" in the NFL?
• Won a Super Bowl.
  • Again - this is a TEAM accomplishment - not an individual accomplishment.
  • We've already discussed how the Jets won SB III.
  • Trent Dilfer also won a Super Bowl. Was he "elite"?
• Named Super Bowl MVP.
  • Anointed MVP by the media. What other choice could they make after the infamous "guarantee"?
• 1965 Rookie of the Year.
  • You omitted AFL Rookie of the Year.
  • Anointed by the media. Without a doubt he was the highest profile player who elected the AFL over the NFL and kicked off the bidding war between the two separate leagues.
  • FTR: The NFL Rookie of the Year in 1965 was Gale Sayers.
• 2 League MVP's.
  • One of those two was for the AFL (1968). As such, he wasn't competing for the honor against at least half of the pro QB's playing at that time.
  • FTR: The NFL MVP in 1968 was Earl Morral (who, as a backup QB, also took his team to the SB).
  • The second MVP was in 1972 and it was deserved (see prior posts).
• Comeback Player of the Year. (1974)
  • Suggests that 1973 wasn't a very good year. It wasn't.
  • Played as a Jet in 1975, then with the Rams in 1976.
• NFL Jersey number retired.
  • Individual TEAMS decide who's Jersey number should be retired. Not the NFL.
  • This decision is rarely based on a comparison to the players' peers.
  • Based on his contributions to the Jets' franchise - no doubt deserved.

I'll tell you what, TD. I will concede that, because he is a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, he is part of an elite group now. But I will never agree that, while he was playing, he was elite. Simply because he wasn't. Not by any stretch of an objective evaluation.

 

Putting your list of accolades into perspective;

Of the seven items in your list, all but two of them (won a Super Bowl and had his Jersey number retired) where handed out by the media. Don't think the media is biased? Let me ask you a question.

Who do YOU think should have been named the NFL Rookie of the Year in 2018 ?

 

The Namath hate is real...Are you guys just big Suzy Kolber fans or what?
You really didn't concede anything Lyman. That was more of a backhanded remark that insinuates he doesn't deserve HoF...

I'll concede that when he played for the LA Rams he was no longer elite. I was 8, and I could tell he was hurt....but this is getting kind of old.

FTR: I didn't omit anything. He won "rookie of the year" in the league he was playing in. You act as if that shouldn't count...He's only human. He had no control over the other league Lym....I simply listed a shitload of accomplishments that Namath has achieved, and then you picked it all apart in a sorta sad effort to try and prove to me that the legendary HoF QB wasn't elite...It's a joke, right?

By all means, feel free to keep knitpicking on the HoF career.... Did my ex-wife put you guys up to this? lol!

100 years of NFL football...Only about 300 men have the gold jacket. What more needs to be said?

I love how his critics point to his winning percentage, but then when I mention SB and the NC and all the awards he achieved, those are simply residuals from playing a "team" game...

You don't have to tell me what Alabama football is. I'm trying to show that this guy was an elite football player. It was your contention that all his glory was derived from the NY media. Craig Krenzel? Really? Just because you point out a college QB that won a NC, and didn't find NFL success, that doesn't mean shit, and you know it...Generally speaking, it's considered quite an a accomplishment to QB a team to a NC. However it does not guarantee you NFL success...

IMO, you lost you side of this right here:

By your own admission, his (2nd) league MVP, was deserved. Glad you came to terms with it. Not sure why he had to win two of them for you to admit that, but whatever...Nevermind about the NC, and the SB and the SB MVP.....I'll simply ask, how can someone possibly win such an award as LEAGUE MVP (twice) without being considered elite?

 

@TopDawg , still waiting your response to this.

 

I get that the word "elite" is somewhat vague, but we gotta draw the line somewhere. I just assumed the HoF would be a no brainer...

I've read about and seen enough (mostly through NFL films) to have a good understanding of what Joe Namath was. And I understand that he wasn't Joe Montana. Never said that he was. I'd even agree that the "first ballot" argument has some merit, but Namath was elite.

We can seed them out all day long...Bottom line is, Hall of Famers, are elite players...

 

lol! touche' Lym...I missed that one....I think I even mentioned somewhere that it was a popularity contest, and that's why Baker didn't win...Hilarious.

But that was between #1 and #2 overall in the draft. Can't I easily say both of those dudes deserved the award? It was extremely close vote I believe, and I think most would agree that, that one could have gone either way....

 

This is dumb and bordering on childish.

I liked Namath. In fact, I liked him a lot. Watching him play was fun. Namath played the game with balls and was entertaining. And he was entertaining off the field as well.

I don't have to hate someone in order to think they weren't elite or worthy of being in the Hall of Fame. That's just friggin silly.

This is a quote of yours from the previous page. And it's a problem because you are treating the HOF as some objective body that can't be questioned. And you're wrong. There are players in the HOF that we can debate if they really belong there or not. Just like there are players that aren't there that probably should be. Stop pretending the humans that do the voting can't ever be wrong. That's ridiculously stupid.

 

I thought the Suzy Kolber bit was pretty funny...Don't get all sensitive now. Your whole argument is dumb..

lmao! It's not a literal term bro. It's what all the cool kids are saying....You guys are "hating" on Joe Namath....I suppose I could have went with "casting shade" on Namath, but that might have blown your mind...

No I'm not...You're wrong.

 

You can debate all you want BWW, on whether or not a guy belongs in the NFL HoF...What you can't do, is pull a name out of the very select few that have ever worn the gold jacket, and convince me that he wasn't an elite player...

I don't know how many times, or different ways, I have to put it, but I'm very comfortable relying on my theory (that you think is so bizarre for some inane reason) that HoF = elite.

 

I’m not trying to convince of anything. Believe what you want to believe. I know Namath wasn’t elite.

You’re taking the position that the people who cast votes for the HOF can’t possibly be wrong. It’s naive and it’s dumb.

You don’t have a theory. You have a stance. And it’s very flawed.

 

My argument actually uses reasoning, logic, and thought.

Your argument is sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending you can’t hear me.

 

It's quite simple, TD. I can't speak for BWW, but from my own viewpoint it's the process and the people who put players into the HoF that's flawed. It's not based solely on Joe Namath. There are a few more players in the HoF that, IMHO, didn't consistently play better than their peers yet they are in the HoF. Just like there are some players that, IMHO, did consistently play better than their peers and yet they're not in the HoF.

I base my opinion on objective data. Because induction into the HoF is an INDIVIDUAL honor, I only look at objective data that is assignable to an individual. Did he complete a higher number passes, rush for more yardage, have more sacks, tackles or interceptions, etc. And did he accomplish that consistently over a period of time. In the case of Joe Namath - he did not.

 

Wrong again. YOU have a seriously flawed theory, or stance or whatever the hell you wanna call it...

I'm just being real. If this were somehow a forum that every knowledgeable football fan in the country had to chime in on, you guys that think HoF'r's aren't elite would be in that .0001%. Just sayin. That's truth....First of all, most would think it's absurd that there are those that would even question it...Don't get big headed because you three think you have me outnumbered here. lol!

Keep yammering all you want...HoF players are elite players.

You have the flawed thinking...

• Super Bowl champion (III)
• Super Bowl MVP (III)
• Pro Bowl (1972)
• Second-team All-Pro (1972)
• NFL Comeback Player of the Year (1974)
• NFL passing yards leader (1972)
• NFL passing touchdowns leader (1972)
• AFL champion (1968)
• 4× AFL All-Star (1965, 1967–1969)
• First-team All-AFL (1968)
• 3× Second-team All-AFL (1966, 1967, 1969)
• 2× AFL Most Valuable Player (1968, 1969)
• AFL Rookie of the Year (1965)
• 2× AFL passing yards leader (1966, 1967)
• AFL All-Time Team
• New York Jets No. 12 retired
• 1964 national champion

^^^^There's no lies here. This all happened. To suggest this guy wasn't elite is ludacris.

 

This sums it up for me.

TD of course is just going to reply with more mindless crap and say HOF = elite.

But it doesn't. If you're rational and can actually think for yourself you'd know that.

 

I have an opinion. And I feel it's a pretty good one. It's also one a lot of football fans feel the same amount. Namath has never really been a popular pick for the HOF. Fans were debating it when he was inducted.

You're not being real....you're taking a blind stance on something. You're not bothering to compare Namath to his peers.....which is the only way a player should be considered elite.

This has nothing to do with being outnumbered. My argument stands on it's own without help from anyone. I don't need backup to debate you on this.

Not sure how you feel you get to speak for most football fans....has there been an election lately do decide that? Or is this just more baseless bullshit from you? You seem to be the king of baseless bullshit lately.

As has been explained to you ad nauseum....team accomplishments don't make individual players elite.

All star games don't make players elite.

A team retiring your number doesn't make you elite.

A National Championship doesn't make an NFL player elite.

Either you can't read, can't comprehend, or you just like arguing in circles of stupidity. Or it's a little of each.

A player is elite when they are consistently better than a majority of their peers. Namath....never was. There were always better QBs around. He wasn't elite.

Your argument is flawed....and you're wrong.