Some players should find a way to protest in support of domestic violence, I just hope whatever they decide doesn't get misconstrued and it turn into an overblown national debate that gets them blackballed from the league.
From a strictly football standpoint, this is a great move for the Browns.....Worth the risk all day. If more bad news comes up, ya simply cut bait and move on. This doesn't damage the Browns...Pro sports is what it is. Make no mistake, on the football field, Kareem is a dynamic weapon in both the running and passing game. This move easily gives the Cleveland Browns the strongest RB trio in football... Clearly John Dorsey is trying to maximize his resources, and this was easy to see coming, IMO...John has never been afraid of giving players a 2nd chance, and his history with Hunt was well documented. Business wise, this is likely to be money in the bank for Cleveland...Kareem Hunt doesn't want to throw his life away. Nobody is gonna jump out and dance in the streets over the signing, but at the same time, Browns fans have the right to be optimistic about this...And I know that in the back of EVERY Browns fan's mind, they are seeing some touchdowns... I don't know if Kareem Hunt can overcome his demons, but IMO he at least deserves an opportunity, and I won't lie, I'm glad the Cleveland Browns took the shot.
Well, i am not sure how i came across in my previous post but i do agree with what you said. My point seems to be that the NFL, nor any sort of industry that relies on some form of cult of celebrity, should not in anyway be looked to as some form of moral compass, that is a core problem in our society amongst many others. I do NOT want to give him a pass, im just approaching it absurdly pragmatically and saying, he is going to play because while you and I care, what can we really do? the vast majority grab their internet pitchfork and put it down when the next scandal arrives. It is fucked up, its wrong, he should be in jail but the reality of it is that he is playing and my point was that he does at least make your team better- i said this when ray rice had his issue- i will not cheer him on when he plays but i accept that he is a good player, now that was redundant because he never played again. We just have next to no real say on anything when it comes to those types of decisions and it may seem somewhat apathetic to defeatist but it is what it is 2k
IMO there are too many variables to human behavior to go with "one and done" universally applied. Someone wrote about some NFL players being involved in a Bar Fight, but said that if the other guy started it, well too bad for him. Why, does the non violent answer not apply in that case. And if it doesn't then, how many times does a woman get in a man's face basically, putting her finger in his face or chest, practically "daring" him to get physical in return? These are young men trained not to give any quarter, never let your opponent dictate your actions. In other words "fight". I am not forgiving anyone who has abused someone, but I also understand that many young men have not yet mastered self control by their early 20's, and most likely, not had many examples of someone backing down from a confrontation gracefully. So while I agree he and many others who aren't on video, should have chosen a more mature, more civilized response, I won't hold them as unforgiveable. The policy allows one incident to come to light, then if it should happen again, that's it. That seems like a fair way to be clear, and be forgiving at the same time. That makes this a business decision. The moral decision was made by the league, and may yet end his career, if he can't overcome his upbringing, accept and change his behavior. Much like Josh Gordon, who couldn't escape his demons, I hope Kareem can.
There is an enormous difference in defending yourself in a fight that someone else started....and continuing to hit and kick someone when the end of the fight is a reality. The difference is teaching the dumbass a lesson and sending him to the hospital. A fight can easily be "won" without giving the other guy permanent injuries. If you don't have a temper to stop when you know it's over, then you better damn well avoid EVERY situation.
Should he be banned from football? Or should he be given an opportunity at redemption? That's what it all boils down to...I was reading some of the national perspectives on the subject, and I really liked this: Sally Jenkins of the Washington Post had this to say about the Browns' controversial signing: "What's really best for everyone concerned? A hypocritical banning by the NFL that leaves a young man at a dead end? Or conditional re-employment, which allows him to make reparation, and, hopefully, become a credible messenger that violence is not a reflex but a repairable trait? I'll take the second option, please. Speaking as a woman."
Oh actually, if that is what we are discussing that i agree with Lyman, hence all my likes of his posts, not to say i dont agree with points raised by others including Irish, which i do of course. But if we focus on that i think the NFL is just doing what every other major sports or entertainment focused industry does- it is giving him a pass for a truly heinous cowardly act. This isnt about forgiveness for me, its a matter of perception, and what sort of moral judgement we place on his actions. If he killed a man or woman, no one, or few, would argue that he should not be in jail. But he beat a woman, to be brutally honest, i rather him kill a man than beat the shit out of a woman (or child), i have VERY strong view on domestic abuse and i think the very fact that he gets a second chance at all after such an action is a problem in society, i focused mostly on the fact that our society just does NOT value the severity of such actions enough. So to be clear, i think he should be out of a job, and in recovery and counselling paid for by the NFL but the NFL and the 10's of millions he earns is a huge boon, in almost no other regular job can he make that sort of money it is a privaledge and his ability to entertain and play is not above the rule of law. Same sort of shit exists for those who avoid taxes. The rule of law, the importance of civil western values are paramount (not getting in to this unless people want to as im not saying eastern cultures dont have this) but our society can not function if not everyone is held equal under the law. 2k
Your line here, Irish, just made me remember when Chuck Finley was pitching for the Tribe and was married to his whackadoodle bi-polar wife Tawny Kitaen. The one night she just went off on him and assaulted him. The cops asked why he didn't defend himself and he said she was 5'7" and he was a 6'6" pro athlete and that if he lifted a finger against her, he was going to be the one going to jail and not her. The relevance is the fact that these guys are assaulting women, because the women are getting up and their face and hitting and kicking, etc., and these guys just can't "take the crap". I understand if these women are coming at you with a bat, a gun...whatever. But for crying out loud these guys are getting hit harder than this daily doing their job in the NFL. But regardless, all these guys need a 2nd chance. Who doesn't make mistakes in life, even huge ones at times? That's a good quote TD posted by Sally Jenkins.
I could agree on an isolated incident, maybe, depending on the circumstances...but he had 3 incidents in a matter of 6 months in his second year in the league... I hope he cleans up his life, but unless he totally removes himself from the night life, chances are someone will take an opportunity to provoke and he just might be willing to oblige. We'll see... Edit: And now he is very close to the friends and family that made him the way he is... It is ironic that he spends so much time in Kansas City, but comes home to Cleveland for a weekend and literally kicks a woman in an assault case...Now he lives here full time... I forgot, one of the other incidents was at Put-In-Bay...so at least 2 of the 3 were in Ohio...I don't know where the 3rd was.
That's a major point for me as well, but sometimes a dog won't change his behavior until you rub his nose in shit.
That lends credence to my point concerning the environment in which he grew up. Willoughby, Ohio is a suburb on the near east side of Cleveland and would hardly be considered a mecca for kids of "white privilege". His family life was total shit and I suspect he spent more time with classmates that had similar home lives. But Kareem was much more lucky than his school cronies. He had a chance to escape through football - and did just that. But adolescent bonds are near impossible to break. Even if you dont seek them out, they will seek you out . . . especially if you have become an NFL star. So, yes, two of the three incidents you keep yammering about (maybe all three) occurred in his old turf and probably with his adolescent friends close at hand. The high school I attended typically has a class reunion every five years. I've been fortunate to have lived long enough to have attended ten of these reunions. You know what I find when I get to every one of these? Classmates and friends who have taken different paths in life than me. But we STILL go on and on about what we did when we were younger and, in some ways, try to recapture that time in our lives - good and bad. I was lucky to have grown up where I did. Kareem . . . Not so much. But even as seedy as the near east side of Cleveland was (or is), it was still better than what he had at home. And his friends from there weren't as fortunate as him to be able to escape.
It's heartbreaking across all points of view. What this thread shows is the diversity of opinions, regarding how society, the NFL, teams, and fans see the problem and solutions. From my perspective, second chances are absolutely necessary, as we all carry baggage, have erred, and have had to deal with our own shortcomings. The spotlight professional athletes operate under magnifies their misdeeds, and we all get to talk about the issues. Maybe that can help us all to see how our fellow citizens view the issue, and perhaps more importantly how each person's lens distorts or focuses their opinion. I am surprised at how some people see it so black & white, no nuance. I don't agree (obviously) but it does inform me on how I am not seeing this the same way others do, and need to consider that point of view is legitimate, even though it isn't mine. I am far less than perfect, and have committed any number of acts for which I am less than proud. I thank God that I didn't have to share them with the world, but had to bear them just the same. They became life lessons from which I grew, as I suspect we all have on some scale. Getting a chance to do better is vital IMO, so I am one who sees second chances as necessary steps in becoming an responsible adult, and recognizing how our behavior impacts those around us. I see the "no second chances" perspective, as an over simplification many times. It strikes me that human interaction is infinitely variable, and influenced by a myriad of elements, and any judgement should at the very least consider those variables. Call me a bleeding heart. Fine. I see it not as forgiveness, but recognizing and understanding how differently each of us sees, and reacts to situations. Some are naturally better, some learn to get better, some never learn.
This is something that more people should not only be willing to do but work towards implementing in their daily lives with some degree of earnest effort.
I totally agree with this sentiment with one exception. You should've used a gender neutral descriptive term. Because of course, to do any other would be to single out one gender and say they should be treated differently which of course is sexist. As the person who started the metoo thread on this site im sure that wasn't your intention. Gender is irrelevant to this discussion. One human being looking to start trouble or physical conflict with another human being is not ok. You make the conscious decision to go down that path then its on your own head. There may be some difference, but it certainly isn't enormous. The reason the fight started in the first place is the same, ie someone decided they wanted to cause you physical harm and for all you know wanted to smash your face into an unrecognizable bloody pulp. But by all means you continue to defend the bully/aggressor rather than the actual victim in this hypothetical scenario. You're on very solid moral ground.... Can it? Why didn't you say so sooner Rocky? Maybe if we were all as proficient and deadly in hand to hand combat as you Neo we could apply this kind of blanket statement to any fight. For us mere mortals though that isn't really the case. ........but you do understand that the wife was the one in the wrong here, don't you? You know, by physically assaulting another person, which is against "the law"? Wow, there is so much stupid here im not sure i have enough time.... So: 1- Its ok for a person to be the victim of physical assault at home/in public/wherever because of the profession they have. 2- Its ok for a woman to just knee you in the balls, or punch you in the face and break your nose, or simply gouge out your eyeballs with her fingers.... because they didn't use some kind of handheld weapon. 3- Its ok to get right in someones face hurling verbal abuse before physically assaulting them JUST AS LONG as the person committing the initial criminal act is a woman. Congrats, you just made the single dumbest statement in this whole discussion, and if you'd seen some of the stuff irishdawg came out with on the Bears board you'd know, that is some achievement. As for the football side of things with Hunt....yeah the Browns got in first and if its proven that there is one isolated incident and he does everything asked to work his way back, then im all for second chances and the Browns could look very smart. But thats still some way off and 3 incidents suggests a worrying pattern of behaviour. JMO but I wouldn't be thrilled with my team signing Hunt this early on.
Fair play and all. But the issue here is one of degrees. For example, would you assert that everyone deserves a second chance? regardless of the act? I think the moral contention is one of simply stating that what he did is not, and should not be, forgivable in the grand scheme of things. It is not a matter of black and white, most people's position here has come across like that without them showing all their reasoning which frankly would take a lot of time. I believe we all have had a second crack at something but there are certain laws that i think most of society would agree are just a step too far. For example, what about people who have sexually assaulted a woman? shall we grant a second chance there? or what about kids? or what about guys who just beat a woman? the issue is not black and white, it is one of degrees but it is a subject that i think ultimately leads a person to come down heavily on one side. for me, what he did is unforgivable and not just because i think it will only lead to more people thinking it isnt that "bad" when i think it is right up there with a core issue in our society. You can have a bad upbringing, and we can be empathetic to it but ultimately environment can not absolve all crimes, they are adults, and should be treated as responsible moral agents. Your point carries merit from a moral philosophy stand point but then we would get in to relativism vs absolutism and i would argue in both grand approaches, domestic abuse and violence is morally wrong in almost all cases ( not trying to be a sith here and all) My post earlier, and others, are simply in my eyes accepting that the NFL is not some arbiter of the moral landscape, most people really dont care enough and all that matters is winning- so if you accept those premises then it seems somewhat reasonable and understandable for the browns to make this trade because ultimately someone will benefit on the pitch and the down side practically and financially speaking is not severe enough IN PART because of under appreciation and willingness to be inclined to give a second pass on such issue. 2k
Thanks for dropping by and being a such a douchebag. Such an insightful critique. Yes I do. Never said she wasn't. Did you miss the point where I said the convo reminded me of something? It wasn't the same situation, it just evoked a memory. I think the honor of dumbest of the day (maybe I'll inter your response in Dumbass of the day if I get a chance) has been earned by yourself. I never said any of these points were okay nor did I compare these two situations. Good lord I just pray you attain some level of sustainable reading comprehension at some point. And I again point out that this simply evoked a memory....not equal....not the same.....just a freakin' memory. And no time did I equate the two. Thanks for playing though and please, Don Pardo, tell our guest what conciliatory parting gifts our last place contestant gets.
Completely missing the point here EB....stating that guys are assaulting women because they cant control themselves like Chuck Finley was able to does not equate to condoning violence of any kind.
Kareem Hunt should remain unemployed. You are on visual record of beating a woman, while you have a group of friends with you and you know that security is in the building to handle matters like this, and YOU still make the DECISION to strike the woman... you are a piece of shit. End of story. His ego wouldn't allow him to "take shit from a shawty" like that, especially not in front of his crew. Ray Rice... piece of shit. Kareem Hunt... piece of shit. Reuben Foster... piece of shit. Adam Pacman Jones... piece of shit. The list is long and unfortunately when the money rolls in the way it does for the NFL, the pile can block the view of the problems that lie directly in front of you. Destroyers of INTEGRITY, which the NFL severely lacks. But hey, $14 BILLION is a lot of money, right? Feel free to play along. Also, feel free to read this article by Terence Moore. https://www.forbes.com/sites/terenc...involving-players-abusing-women/#12ad3a3e503a I'm disappointed with the Browns organization to go this way with Hunt. I understand that Dorsey has a soft spot for this person, but with this decision and action, he is contributing to the problem, not fixing it. In discussions, I'm seeing and hearing people bring up second chances. If everyone needs or deserves a second chance, why isn't everyone beating up women? How many women did Warrick Dunn beat up during his career? Barry Sanders? Walter Payton? Emmitt Smith? Anyone? Anyone? Any takers on a bet? Within 2 years KH will have another "incident" similar to this one. People bitch and whine about Colin Kaepernick... but how many women has he "set straight" with his fists? He's a much better person/human being than the shitbags we are discussing, but much more vilified for a superficial reason.
