Ravens @ Panthers, Week 8 Gameday Thread

This is my exact point. We don't know what we have in him. But there is a time and place for everything and I don't think he's able earn more wins than Joe this year. To further my assertion that he hasn't progressed as a passer here's his back to back highlites from a preseason game to an extended period against the Panthers.
Second Preseason vs Rams


Extended 4th quarter play vs Panthers Week 8 Reg Season


I don't see significant improvement and I didn't see much of it from the 2nd practice of TC to the second last practice. If Joe is healthy I see no reason to give Jackson the start. Maybe a few more reps under center, but that is all.

 

Ok, let's use these two videos and do direct comparison. The first thing to note is that Lamar himself said he had finally adjusted to NFL speed, and he said this a few weeks ago. He could be lying, but he's seemed like an honest kid, even admitting that his throws were horrible back in training came. I'll do these in letter format. The first comment will be training camp, the second will be Panthers game

A.
- At the 15 second mark, he fakes a hand off and runs with the ball. In all honesty, he just doesn't look quick here. I remember questioning to myself where all that quickness and elusiveness that was talked about was.
- You see it here at the 5 second mark. He's definitely not Vick fast, but that quickness was shown here. That elusiveness was shown as he made the first defender miss easily. The second defender had to hold on for dear life.

B
- Lamar's first TD run is a thing of beauty, from an athletic standpoint, but bad as a passer. Go to the 1:09 mark, he felt pressure and took his eyes off the routes downfield and tucked the ball to run. He scored so no big deal, but that's the "quick to run" mentality
- Go to 52 second mark. He still has some space, but feels the pocket collapsing from the right. You may have to slow this one down on Youtube. With an open lane to run, you can see he takes that first step to take off, but never took his eyes away from the WRs. He sees Snead come open and hits him for the completion. My favorite thing about this play is that he doesn't look for the checkdown, he's looking for the first down marker. As a fan that's watched checkdown after checkdown for the past 4 years, it's nice to see a QB keep their eyes open down field. I will admit he will need to balance this as it'll be problematic if he always avoids the easy yards for attempts down field

C
- Go to 1:30. Here he has room to throw but there is some pressure. He has a receiver running open but doesn't hit him in stride, the receiver has to slow down and practically stop for the completion. You could tell the receiver was looking to keep running vs the Snead play referenced in B, where Snead was clearly slowing down to not enter another zone and get blown up.
- Go to 1:00. This is a longer pass than the one referenced from preseason. Even though it's longer, he still finds Hurst in the open area of the zone coverage and hits him in stride.

The amount of playing time for Jackson between these two videos is nowhere near the same, so I can't really give more Panthers examples without repeating plays.

To touch on your first and second sentences though, you've never implied or said that we don't know what we have with him......not once anywhere on this thread and I don't recall it anywhere else of the top of my head. You've directly said he's not good enough to start. You've said he's not ready as a passer. You've called him a run first QB. You've said he's not accurate and has no accuracy. You've said he is nothing resembling a passer. None of these things even look in the direction of saying we don't know what we have with him.

For the third sentence, I agree there and have said something similar. I haven't advocated for Lamar because I think he'll come in and win more games than Joe. I've advocated for Lamar because I severely doubt Flacco is going to lead this team to win 6 of the last 7, or even 5 of the last 7, to get a playoff spot because he's just too inconsistent.

 

I dismissed you bc of your shitty attitude. I have a long history here and I don't pick new people. No reason to unless they have a shitty attitude like you. You didn't like me saying your QB Lamar wasn't ready and you jumped in RR1's convo with me. Normally not a bad thing but you went from 0 to Douche in a record 4.6 seconds. I've got no time for that shit and we don't do that to each other here.

Again, shitty attitude. Your rendition of events is staggeringly false. Go back and reread it. I know exactly how Flacco became QB,. Boller hurt in wk2 of preseason and Troy Smith out with a serious virus. He was 3rd string as RR1 stated and I never said otherwise. There was NO guarantee that he entered the season as such of everyone stayed healthy. Boller was the worst QB ion the NFL and needed to be gone years before. I would've been happy to roll with Smith, but Flacco proves to be better by the time he recovered. Does that sound revisionist?In retrospect, Flacco WAS going to win the starter spot had everyone stayed healthy.

You're in such a rush to judge you read into the post things that didn't exist, purposely or unconsciously. Either way is not a good look for you.

First, your fucking loony. Ask the crowd here or on any other board here if I ever tried to deny anyone the right to post. PM Tim, if you have to. If you're butthurt over me telling you to tone it down or shut up down until you learn the group dynamic then maybe stop and think why you're in this moronic argument. IDC if you challenge my opinions/analysis

Second, if this from my response to you from 2 FUCKING WEEKS ago when I asked what makes you think Lamar is ready, then you got some anger or self-esteem issues. I LITERALLY INCLUDED YOU without any judgement on your post. So this is how you intend to interact with the group when someone ask you to explain what YOU mean? To stew for 2 weeks then unload? RR1 and others here usually provide some stats or references to disagreements. You didn't even answer the ONE QUESTION politely asked of you. So you're full of shit. Either change your diaper or take the 'tude elsewhere.

Blah, Blah, Blah. Your welcome to your opinion. Zero fucks given here, buddy boy. Post your poll. Won't make a damn bit of difference. I've been here and have no intention of changing that now. Stay. Leave. Stay silent for another 4 years. That's up to you, not me.

If you want to be a part of a discussion don't go all Rambo. If you make a claim, be prepared to back it up. Don't take it personally. If you get angry, take a deep breath. Fans here don't make personal attacks...even the Steelers fans have toned it down when posting here and we on their board. These are not my rules, this is how it has come to be. I doubt anyone wants to go back to that especially among fans of the same team.

 

I'm starting to think you're just a dishonest person at heart.

I've repeatedly said why I posted what I did and this isn't it, Chief.

Why do you feel the need to create your own reality?

All I did was point out how you lied. I didn't add anything or change anything.

If it bothers you so much that you need to try and change the story to look better for you, that's a you thing.

All I did was mention what another poster had to say about how you're acting and all you have done this whole time was prove him right.

Do you always project like this?

Again, you know this isn't why I posted what I did so why do you feel the need to try and drag it in this direction?

Could it be because you look like an asshole for going after somebody for no other reason then them having the audacity to disagree with you?

You're a clown.

So I can do whatever I want but if I want to be part of the discussion I need to follow your rules and not act like you?

What the fuck are you even talking about?

I don't think anyone want to read this bullshit anymore so PM me if you want to continue this nonsense.

Sorry not sorry but you can go fuck yourself you fake dickhead.

 

I wouldn't expect any player drafted high vying for the starting job asap to say that he wasn't able to match the speed of the game or any other deficiency. I don't think he's a liar, but top athletes perceptions are all skewed to their own reality of being the best. And if they're more humble, then I still wouldn't expect them to say what they're not good at. Regarding his claim to have been unused to the TC balls, believe me when I say that his throwing hasn't looked significantly different from college to Ravens TC to now.

See, again I feel the opposite...only giving him respect for his elusive running there. He looks really fast and his twitchiness faked out the LB allow him the score. His 40 time as a junior in college was 4.34. Vick was about the same unless you believe his unofficial time of 4.25. I don't. To me I can't dispute that he's dangerous on his feet. But my concern is two-fold: 1) injuries, 2) pro-players are faster than college players. He's not taking RG's advice to preserve himself.

 

No. You lied. I showed it. I was mistaken on the drops. Calling it a lie shows you're immaturity or desperation for acceptance. Take you're pick. You're living on your own reality and saying I'm doing the same is ridiculous. I'm not discussing anything with a crazy person, because they don't know that they are and like you are quick to tell others they're "lying." Been there, done that, not interested.

I'm done with this convo, but just mind your P's & Q's. I can call you out on BS too. Welcome to the board

 

Wow, do you project like this in the real world or just online where you think you can just make shit up as you go?

Everything about what I posted can be looked at and verified. You lied, so why do you feel the need to try and make someone else out as the liar?

You keep trying to push some kind of narrative about who I am or why I posted what I did when all anyone has to do is read what I posted.

I called you out for going after someone in a personal manner with a really shitty take and everything since then has been you spinning more than a washing machine.

You're nuts.

More of that gatekeeper bullshit.

When I lie about something go ahead and call me out. You're going to be waiting a long fucking time though pal.

I've been here since 2014 so no need for your fake welcome.

You're a joke.

Like I said in the previous post. Let's just take this to a PM so no one else has to read you spinning up more bullshit to save face.

 

A team with very little chance to make the playoffs doesn't, or at least shouldn't, start at QB who's not been active all season over their first round QB.

- You keep arguing who will get more wins when nobody has said anything about it.

- You keep implying that Jackson is run first or forces the run, meanwhile it's been proven that the majority of his runs were offensive play calls, his OC/Petrino decided on, not him. It's been shown that only 73% of his rushing yards came from designed runs

- It's been proven that of all first round QBs drafted, Lamar sat in the pocket going through more reads more than any other, showing that he can be a pocket passer. Whether you don't know of these things or choose to ignore them, I'm not sure. There are so many easy to find articles around the web that dispels a lot of what you're saying

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-one-of...n-who-has-problems-inside-the-pocket-called-a

https://www.flofootball.com/article...the-overwhelming-disrespect-for-lamar-jackson

- You talk about his style getting him injured, yet Lamar didn't miss a game in college at all as a three year starter. Maybe that quickness and suddenness helps avoid bad/big hits.

- And you keep questioning him as a passer, yet in their last two college football seasons (two seasons used for fair comparisons), he threw the same amount of TDs as Sam Darnold, 21 more than Josh Rosen , and 13 more than Josh Allen. Now, I will be fair and say that Rosen (8 games less) and Allen (1 game less) played less games due to injury (that Lamar avoided with far more opportunity for injury), but if you average out their games to a full season, they would have still thrown less. Only Baker beats him among first round QBs

- But since Lamar's accuracy is a question, let's talk INTs. Those are usually an example of bad throws more often than not. Well, he had 3 less than Sam Darnold, 4 more than Josh Rosen, and 2 less than Josh Allen. Keep in mind, again, that Rosen played 8 less games and Allen played 1 less. Average out those stats, and Lamar is flat safer with the pass than any first round QB not named Baker Mayfield.

- Final passing stat of the last two college seasons, Lamar had a higher yards per attempt average than all first round QBs not named Baker Mayfield. He also came in second on passing yards in that time frame (although he may fall behind Rosen if you average it out, I can't guesstimate that one by looking like with the other stats).

- Long story short, the narrative that he's some run first QB who can't/won't stand in the pocket has been false for some time now. Apparently people see rushing yards for a QB and don't look past that stat or even look into it.

Hmm, so we have to trust Harbaugh's decision on players as the right one? But you've called out Harbaugh's decision, even on personnel, already this year, as many of us have. But now you're saying his decision is the right one because it supports your argument. And yet at the same time you continue to ignore and rewrite his intended 2008 decision of keeping Flacco on the bench as the #3 QB. I just don't get how that works. We can ALL point to player personnel decisions that would have likely earned as an extra win or two this season alone (see Hurst not playing LG while Brown plays RT).

 

They are far from eliminated. It's not looking great, but there is still a chance if the fix their issues which is what the bye week was for.

I brought it up. I guess that doesn't count then? Jeez, isn't it all about the wins?

At the NFL at least he IS a run first QB. College does not matter. That's like you saying I shouldn't comparing him now from what I saw in TC just a few months ago - except you want to argue something from a different time at a longer time ago. If you can't concede this point, this will be the last post I discuss this matter. Keep it equal.

College ball has looser coverage. way slower, and lesser competition level allowing athletically gifted players to shine even if their techniques are sloppy or development incomplete. I mentioned Tebow a time or three and he's a prime example of that. I don't see much difference in LJ (right now) than Tebow other than being smaller, quicker and with a quicker release. His throwing mechanics are not on par with NFL level and it shows even up through his last performance. Hence he has a lot of ground to cover in the passing department.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-one-of...n-who-has-problems-inside-the-pocket-called-a

https://www.flofootball.com/article...the-overwhelming-disrespect-for-lamar-jackson

https://www.flofootball.com/article...the-overwhelming-disrespect-for-lamar-jackso- You talk about his style getting him injured, yet Lamar didn't miss a game in college at all as a three year starter. Maybe that quickness and suddenness helps avoid bad/big hits.[/QUOTE]
Are you being purposely obtuse? How many games did Vick, RG3 and Tebow miss in college? How often where they injured/missed games in the NFL? Again, college is NOT the NFL. You're bobbing for apples and coming up with oranges. It sounds far off, but I'll wager you anything that Jackson doesn't complete a full NFL season in like the aforementioned. I'm saying with nearly 100% certainty that in 3 seasons, 50% likely in his first and or second full season he's going to miss some time due to running the ball. That's not me, the stats are against him. And before you can say "that can happen to anyone," sure it can, but not to Joe. Not to Rogers, Brady, Manning (either), Roethlisberger, Wilson or even Fitzpatrick and many others that practice pocket passing.

Admittedly, I have not seen much of his college games compared to his contemporaries. I'm not saying that he's worse than them so I'm not sure why this is a thing here. I'm interested in how he's taken to the NFL and other teams have different situations and coaches so....

I know his stats and record and they are indeed impressive. You know that doesn't always transfer to the NFL so invoking that comparison is a bit premature. I just don't see this exercise as a good comparison. The most important factor is the level of competition 1) Which teams they faced respectively, and 2) that the NFL is a different animal (like a spider monkey vs an 800lb gorilla) virtually wiping the slate clean until they prove they can handle the game at the pro level. I can spend a while looking over that mutual college competition, but I frankly don't have that luxury in time right now and I don't see the relevance. I don't hold it against LJ that he's not starting now because the situation in Bmore is different that Cleveland, Buffalo, Arizona, and NY. If you want to do that, by all means. I'll read what you find.

See my comments on college vs NFL competition above. I've never made any comparisons of LJ to his draft class. There's no point. All that matters is how he compares to Joe, RG3 and Woodrum. In TC he compared to Woodrum. There wasn't a big difference there, but a wide disparity between him and RG. Joe clearly the best of the 4. And while RG would be the best to step in for a benched/injured Flacco, I know that DeCosta is making a clean break and doesn't want controversy with RG moving forward. I frankly don't see a problem with it as he's playing well, is healthy, it give LJ time to perfect his skills - something that I'm sure, as you pointed out twice now, his draft mates could've benefited from.

Again, I'm only concerned about what he does against Ravens QBs, not his draft mates. They're not even a factor in this discussion.

I didn't rewrite anything. You're flat out putting word into my mouth. Boller hurt 2nd preseason game, Smith not able to play due to virus; all things equal with that group healthy, do you think Boller (known for sucking) or Troy Smith (barely able to stay employed in the CFL) gets the start by week 1 over Joe? Yo have to be on crack to think otherwise. All due respect to Smith at that time, he was their only real option and the only thing that would've prevented that is if they decided to let the vets take the pounding and give him the season to watch and learn as was customary up until around that time. But that dynamic was changing and it was becoming for rookie QBs to be immediate starters.

Yes, I criticized Harbaugh personnel decisions. I do every season and my prerogative . That doesn't mean that we through out all his decisions. That would be absurd. So you trying to circumvent my comment that Harbaugh knows more than WE do, is equally absurd. We like to think as avid fans we can do better when coaches and GMs fail, but that's fantasy. We see only the surface and I've deferred to Harbs decisions in the past whether I agreed with them or not. It's not our call, is it? I'm not advocating for him stay, anymore than Joe at the end of the season.

What you seem to have lost sight of is that I never said LJ sucks. I never said he was no good. I never implied that; you and whozits read into that because you're ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. I challenge anyone here to go back on my posts as see where I ever said he was trash. In fact you'll see the opposite. The worst that you'll see is that I said he's not ready or not matured as a passer YET. I just find the this fickle turn on a player that has brought some measure of respectability and many seasons of success to the team offensively as beneath us. It's not all just on one player.

 

Says the the projector projecting. Don't go there, I've been calling suckers out on that crap for years. Look up the concept of DARVO while your at it. You might learn a bit of something about yourself.

I won't waste my time PMing you. Nothing to be gained there if it can't be gained here and in private YOU can save face. These guys know me and I have nothing to hide. You made public accusations, then that's where they get resolved. No retreating to the shadows. Your choice. Trust me, this hasn't even gotten that bad yet.

 

I can't tell if your an idiot or if you're insane.

I thought we could take it off the forum so no one else had to bother reading it but since you are the ultimate keyboard warrior in your own little world I guess you can just go ahead and do your worst right here tough guy.

Seriously. What the fuck is wrong with you?

 

I went back and read through some of this to see what all the hub-bub is about so I'm just going to jump in now since I already made a statement regarding regime change in Baltimore.

Lamar is set to start with Griffin getting some looks in situations that they believe he is more comfortable in.

This tells me that the Ravens have more faith in Jackson winning them a game right now as the starter than they do in Griffin, which coincides with the idea that they would most likely be unwilling to go into a regular season game with the lesser of two quarterbacks as the immediate back-up just so they can run a couple trick plays with their new draft pick.

I believe @ravens_R_#1 point was that no on other than you had brought it up, but it's a point that you want to include in the conversation as a seeming counter point to one that no one has claimed.

We don't know what he is in the NFL yet because of such a limited sample size, but quarterbacks typically follow their own style when they move up which is why it is important to rely on the information they provided at the college level to make accurate projections to the pro level. Lamar Jackson was not a run first quarterback in college so he likely will not be a run first quarterback in the NFL. He's a pocket quarterback with gifted athletic ability that can extend plays with his legs or when called upon can pick up chunk yardage on designed runs.

There's really no point to concede here because history shows that a players collegiate style tends to be their pro style.

Mechanics can't be the sole determining factor on a quarterbacks success unless they interfere with their release time. Tebow created opportunities for defenders because of his elongated throwing motion. Jackson doesn't do that, but he has unbelievable natural arm strength which gives him 'flick of the wrist' ability to unload the football. It's not his mechanics but his unbalanced platform that creates throws that can escape him. Basically, if he sets his feet properly he delivers strikes, but at the same time he can make some throws that no other recent draft pick can while on the move.

One of the biggest knocks on Phillip Rivers coming out was his delivery and low release point. Sometimes it's more about the player and less about the wonky throwing motion.

But the bigger takeaway here is that you want to compare him to quarterbacks that you prefer stylistically and appear to not be viewing him as the player that he actually is.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

You keep going back to Lamar being a run first quarterback.

That is strictly your opinion at this point in time so that would be the reason why you are the only one making that comparison.

The bigger point was (and still is) that Lamar was not a run first quarterback in college.

All anyone can say for certain about this is that the Ravens (Harbaugh) had stated Flacco would not be named the starter. There would be an open competition in camp, which is something that was never going to happen this season for Jackson.

"We're not going to put him in there until he's ready to be our guy, if he's ready to be our guy, so I think that takes pressure off him, it takes pressure off us, it takes pressure off the other guys. When he's ready and you feel, 'He can get the job done, he can win for us,' you'll feel good about putting him out there."

Everything else is pure speculation. Boller may have started the season and played well enough to keep Smith and Flacco on the bench. Boller may have started the season and had the job taken from him by Joe at some point during the regular season. Flacco may have held a clipboard as a third stringer the entire rookie season.

There are a lot of different scenarios that could have played out but to say that anyone one of them would be the exact one is just opinion, nothing more.

 

My point is you're arguing arguing with yourself and projecting it out. Nobody has denied anything about wins, yet you keep bringing it up.

You have seen nothing from his NFL experience to call him a run first QB. Nothing. His OC calling QB runs doesn't make him a "run first" QB. If he had pass plays where his first read wasn't open and he took off, then he'd be a "run first" QB. That hasn't been the case. You can stop responding if you'd like, but you are flat out making stuff up and treating it as irrefutable fact.

First, this section completely proves what Zing is saying about your asshole approach. You lead off with a condescending question, add another later with your bobbing for apples comment, then speak with some sort of supreme wisdom on Jackson's future NFL career.

To answer your question about games missed though:

Vick missed games in college, Vick missed games in the NFL.
RG3 missed games in college, RG3 missed games in the NFL.
Tebow did NOT miss games in college, Tebow did NOT miss games in the NFL, but I'll add that Tebow had a shortened NFL career.
And to add one further this point.
Cam Newton played every game at Auburn. Cam Newton has missed 3 total games in 8 NFL seasons (less than statute Joe in that time frame).

You acting like it's some guarantee he gets injured running is a flawed point when it's already been shown, by me, the links I've provided, and now Tim, that Jackson is a pocket passer who can scramble, as opposed to being the "run first" QB you keep pounding your chest saying he is.

So how he compared to his peers in his last live football action doesn't matter. How he compared in shorts, many months ago, is the real basis of judging a player, while ignoring play since then.

Whereas I'm assuming you mean what he does as a Ravens QB, you've been intentionally ignoring all he's done as a Ravens QB in the limited time he's performed in Ravens games.

Nobody has put a single word in your mouth. You're flat out writing your own history to further your own narrative. The only FACT about the 2008 Ravens QB situation was that Harbaugh named Flacco the #3 QB and said he wanted him to learn/sit behind Boller and Smith. That's it. There was an open competition, but not a single person here can say for sure whether that was between all three QBs or just between Boller and Smith. Not a single person here can say that Joe would or would not have won the starting job.

So my point stands. When you disagree with John's decisions, you criticize. When you agree, it's "well, he's the coach so he knows more than us and has thought out the decision". I'm not circumventing anything. I'm pointing out hypocrisy.

Another case of arguing something nobody said. Feel free to post anywhere I've stated that you said Jackson sucks or was trash. I've called out your statements of him being a "run first" QB, with articles that go into detail, not just my opinion. I've called out that you admittedly were judging him today for training camp. I've even challenged your assessment that he hasn't improved at all. Not once has Ravens_R_#1 stated that Tenacious Faulk has called Jackson trash or said he sucks. If you're going to keep making up points to argue, then maybe this back and forth should end.

Finally, there's no "fickle turn" on Flacco. I even went out of my way to state my direct opinion in a post. I scanned through every post of the last two threads to show you the majority of the fans here aren't even placing the blame at only Joe's feet. There is no "fickle turn". There is recognition and acceptance from many that Joe is just inconsistent. That Joe will not be improving at this stage in his career. And, from me directly, that you can't win in the current NFL with a QB on Flacco's level, so I, and some others, would prefer to see what an unknown QB can do because it's painfully obvious that a playoff push is nothing short of an extremely long shot at this point. Before you argue another point that was never made, nobody called Jackson the second coming, nobody has said he'll win more games than Joe would have, nobody has suggested he'll save the season. Just want to put that out there.


DISCLAIMER: Tim was definitely more articulate in his responses than I was. Touch act to follow lol

 

Just to touch on this point real quick - It was just this past off-season that you and I had a discussion on the Ravens, Harbaugh and Flacco where you were defending the idea of continuing with the both of them not just into 2018 but beyond.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but your current opinion on the state of the Ravens appears to be based more on which direction this team is trending and less on trying to identify a boogeyman.

 

Exactly. Beach and Mano can even confirm, I've defended both for years.

Even now, I can recognize all the two have done for Baltimore, but I don't feel an inconsistent QB and a conservative HC can succeed in this NFL.

Coaching and QB play are probably the two biggest factors for wins and losses in this league right now. The NFL wants high scoring games. The rules are making it easier for teams to score. So when your coach likes to grind it out and get conservative with a 10-0 lead in the first half, and your QB is inconsistent game to game, or even quarter to quarter, then you simply won't win many games and you'll have a lot of come from behind losses, which we've the last few years.

I didn't come into this season saying we need a new coach and Flacco needs to sit/go, but after half a season, and with the last 3 in mind, I've adjusted my opinion

Edit: You are correct in my assessment

 

I wish you guys watched football, aka Soccer to you rebellious lot over there. The ravens current situation is just like Arsenal ( my first love), long term loyalty to a manager out of his depth and passed it- they got rid of him this past off season and we look like a new team.

I think the ravens suffer from the same issue. As for the adjusting of opinion, i dont think i recall many, if any, being against Joe ( i am not the biggest fan of John so i think ive been consistent there although not super vocal) but we all have our tipping point. As a fan base for the most part, we have reached that point.

As for this whole debate on run first Qb's, i think its a non point. its just a popularised phrase that hasnt existed for about a decade. RG3, Cam were both capable of pocket passing. Prior to his injury, RG3 was looking truly special for the fact that he was deadly in both ways. I dont believe a thing such as a " run first" qb can succeed in todays NFL. The nfl has evolved. Lamar's mechanics just need work, as for his low release point- sure its scary as shit for me but i think the foot or so difference between his release point and say flacco's is not a big deal when there are bigger issues. Lamar's test will be to see if he can read a D and go through his reads. His arm strength is eerily good but i have not seen have to make touch passes, which i look forward to seeing.

I think ultimately this thing comes down to what is best for the future of our team, not just this season. A change would reinvigorate our team and Jackson offers an intriguing option that could prove to be a huge boon

2k

 

I tend to agree with this line of thinking because of the current evolution of the NFL, but the future of the dynamic may change because of how defenses adapt to the current flavor of offenses.

Gonna go off on a bit of a tangent here because these are the kinds of topics I really like discussing...

Around 2012, Jason and I did a podcast discussing the value of NFL running backs and what changes we thought may happen in the near future. My thoughts on it were that the league was ripe to get rang up by bigger, athletic backs that could overpower the defensive trend at the time for smaller, quicker linebackers. Defenses were adjusting to spread offenses with multiple receiving threats on every down and the response was to get smaller and faster to better cover. Since the league was trending towards timeshares in the backfield and backs with defined roles instead of true 3 down runners, it made sense for a defense to build it's roster to counter that.

However, it opened the window for offenses to go back to leaning on larger backs for not only early downs but 3rd and 5 or shorter because of their ability to stay upright longer and farther down the field against smaller linebackers.

Now pivot that concept to 'run first' quarterbacks and the idea that defenses may start to trend a little larger at linebacker to counter some of the feature backs in the NFL, at least on the early downs. Having a quarterback that looks to pull it down and take off in the early situations may no longer be such a horrible idea as it forces defenses to pinch up even farther. Bigger players playing on their toes instead of on their heels makes it easier for faster receiving threats to get behind them and now you have a situation where the threat of a passer taking off on any given down opens up the upper shelf of the intermediate zone by forcing safeties to respect the deep ball (if you have someone like Lamar with above average arm strength paired with a deep threat) while linebackers are playing near the line. If your 'run first' thrower is accurate on the high intermediate and deep pass it can be a recipe for success when paired with an adequate ground game.

It's the same concept as having a rushing attack that forces a defense to respect it on every down, then flipping it to play-action and striking at the heart of the defensive opening, which is the area immediately behind the linebackers and in front of the safeties.

One of my favorite aspects of the NFL (and most professional sports) is that it's all about match-ups and whether or not you have the personnel to execute the scheme.

In Lamar Jackson, the Ravens have a quarterback that can deliver the deep ball, complete the short to lower intermediate at a high percentage and has the every down threat of buying additional time for receivers to get open or taking off and running for positive yardage. To maximize that ability, Baltimore will need to improve its line play, find a back in the draft that can pass block and exit the backfield in the passing game with efficiency, acquire a true deep threat with size (demands both corner and safety coverage on one side), utilize both Hayden Hurst/Mark Andrews in the same sets and develop a pure possession receiver ala an Anquan Boldin type.

The Ravens can get away with having a stock grade running back on early downs because of the RPO element with Jackson. If the line is solid there should be no issues with gaining 3.5 yards an attempt with a back of average NFL starting ability. That knocks a minimum of 3 yards off of the remaining two downs. That keeps it at under 4 yards a play for the remaining two downs to move the chains consistently. Completing quick hitters at 4 yards a pop to a pair of talented tight ends should be something that the offense can develop into a comfortable routine. Having a possession receiver that can take in a 5 yard haul from a quick drop back keeps the linebackers from being able to attack strictly downhill and forces them to move horizontally. The same thing can be accomplished with the tight ends and having a running back that can be a threat out of the backfield.

Now you add the elements of a deep ball threat to convince one side of the defense that they must commit additional coverage over the top and the potential for a play to be elongated by a quarterback that can by time with his legs and you have a recipe to set up windows that the defense has to make choices on. Do they let that upper portion of the zone open between the linebackers and the safeties or do they free up the underneath and give up the opportunity to methodically move the chains down the field?

That's where the development of the rookie quarterback comes in. Can Lamar Jackson learn to diagnose the disguised looks that he is going to get from defenses with players talented enough to leak into spots where he may believe openings are that never really existed? Can he simply take what the defense gives him and do it with repetition and patience?

There are things that Baltimore can do to help their rookie passer improve quickly (I'm all in favor of my method, lol) and it can be the difference between whether or not Jackson ever realizes his potential as a professional.

 

This is fascinating, in fact this is precisely the sort of stuff i like discussing but i just wanted to make it clear that i will respond but i just cant right now.

good shit

2k

 

"Joe Flacco is still rehabbing his injured hip and didn’t practice all week. He’s listed as doubtful to play, but Head Coach John Harbaugh reiterated Friday that he doesn’t need to practice to play. 'I’m standing by that,” Harbaugh said before joking a bit with the media. “He’s coming along beautifully. It’s just amazing. Amazing, the recovery he’s making.' ~BR.com
There might be a bit of gamesmanship from Harbaugh on the matter, but taken at face value it looks like Joe is still firm ensconced as the starter. Further, Jackson missed Thursday practice due to illness. "Asked whether that’s concerning, Harbaugh said, 'Absolutely. It’s not ideal. “Was it part of the plan? Apparently, it was.” I'm not sure what is mean by "part of the plan," but again. there doesn't yet appear to be a mindset of "replace Joe" because of performance. If anything, it's whether he'll be well enough to play.

RG3 was the only QB at practice Thursday, so Jackson's absence due to illness could set any potential start for him back. If Joe can't play, logically Rg is the next man up at this point. If so and all he needs is another week to recoup then LJ could be bumped back further. Is it likely? Put on a blind fold and throw a dart and you stand about the same odds of hitting the bnoard than predicting this one imo.

The thing to keep in sight here is that I'm not saying now or never have said that he's not good or never will be. I'm saying I know what I saw in training camp from the second practice the second last practice as well as his limited play in the NFL. Minus Bill Polian's obvious bias (possibly racial), I suggest that the reason that Jackson has had limited snaps is because he's not yet ready. I showed before that he's had more running plays than passing. Take from that what you will (bad OL, OL loyalty to Joe, or just immature pocket presence) causing him to scramble, but he in the NFL to date he has been a running QB in action if not in name.

That is not my intention. The obvious departure in this debate is whether one defines him as a running QB vs passing QB. I get what you're saying about playing style in college translating to the NFL, but that doesn't ensure success like Tebow who was a bit more successful in than Jackson in college. The Tebow experiment didn't last long for what are obvious reasons in retrospect.

I compare him to Tebow not because of his arm motion (again, mentioned Tebow's arch vs Jackson's tighter snap) but because of similar inaccuracy at the pro level. What it comes down to is that like Tebow he is still raw. Tebow was said to difficult to coach in thinking he was better than he was. I'm not hearing anything about that nor am I suggesting that about Jackson. However, he is inaccurate so far at the NFL level and that has not significantly improved from my observations this past Summer.

I get what your saying. His college passing stats are as impressive. So are his running stats. And yes it is my opinion as are all of are comments. There is really nothing empirical about this conversation and it's all observation.

So how are we to explain that he has way more rushing attempts and yards than he does passing? Is that just because the Ravens only want to use him as a running QB? That would seem to run counter to your position that he's a pocket passer (at least as his college style translates to the NFL). It may be that he is still adjusting to the speed of the pros, but he has said that that is not an issue anymore. That might be a cover up, but the results are right there in the stat sheet, how the team has utilized him and but observation.

By your own admission you say Jackson appears to not be planting his feet properly, but that wobble is a more about grip and release. More importantly is that he's a rookie and an alpha dog personality. He's putting a lot of pressure on himself to be the starter ASAFP. Therefore, what I've observed is that when his throws go wild it's because he's rushing to get the ball off. He's either too amped up and not settled on his feet when throwing or throwing under pressure from the pocket. Maybe both. As of now he still has more rushing

All anyone can say for certain about this is that the Ravens (Harbaugh) had stated Flacco would not be named the starter. There would be an open competition in camp, which is something that was never going to happen this season for Jackson.

"We're not going to put him in there until he's ready to be our guy, if he's ready to be our guy, so I think that takes pressure off him, it takes pressure off us, it takes pressure off the other guys. When he's ready and you feel, 'He can get the job done, he can win for us,' you'll feel good about putting him out there."

Everything else is pure speculation. Boller may have started the season and played well enough to keep Smith and Flacco on the bench. Boller may have started the season and had the job taken from him by Joe at some point during the regular season. Flacco may have held a clipboard as a third stringer the entire rookie season.

There are a lot of different scenarios that could have played out but to say that anyone one of them would be the exact one is just opinion, nothing more.[/QUOTE]
I remember Harbaugh saying he wasn't just giving Flacco the starting job. In fact, I took it to mean that he was not just going to name Boller the starter simply because he had "seniority." But I'd say it's less speculative that Flacco started week 1 of his rookie season than to say Jackson is ready to win more games in the NFL than Flacco now. That's simply because (and having endured the Boller years) 1) there can be no argument that Boller was the worst QB in the league, 2) there was a rookie first round pick, 3) a new regime under a new head coach, and 4) a back up QB that was draft in the 5th as a back up QB. These are known quantities.

We don't know what we now have in Jackson and we do know what we have in Flacco which is NOT anything like the Boller situation in 2008. The Ravens surprise move to draft him in the first round has raised this controversy just as Flacco did in 2008. The big difference is that Joe is still a viable QB (if healthy) and fans are dying to get him out to and putting a messiah mantle on LJ prematurely. I think that is short-sighted and premature. The only reason to do this is to appease the burgeoning Jackson fanbase. That could sell some more tickets, but it could really blow up in their face too.

 

Only insane idiots make that comment. Looks like you didn't look into DARVO so I'll just spell it out for you. You are a classic narcissist. You are sucking RR1 and me into your drama triangle on a matter you conflated with yourself. You make me out to be the aggressor because you align with his position and hope to gain some for some social credit here by attacking me. You're trying to flip the script and and subvert reality with your accusations. You walked into an unusually heated debate btn two old online friends and took your opportunity using text book role reversals to accuse me of the thing you're doing. That's not me making it up, that's just science. The internet is filled with people like you, and you're not even close to the first I've called out.

So just stop what you're doing and just talk football or go back to watching from the sidelines. Everyone here backs up their statements and doesn't get bent over a simple question asked about their opinion. "How is Lamar going to fix dropped passes?" is all you were asked and you never answered. Forget that I had it wrong about leading the league in dropped passes for a single moment, the issue is still part of the reason Joe is struggling to get wins.

I'm going to make this real easy. If you can't post an answer to that like a civil, dignified person then I have no use for you. Everyone else's posts here have substance of some kind. Some use stats, some use observations an experience or both. If you can do that I have no issues in debating with you, but I don't have the time or inclination to get into a gutter brawl over personal attacks with overly aggressive posturing, BS comments and hypocritical stances with someone I have no history with. There are others here I don't communicate with because of the very same issue.

Read @Tim's post above if you want a guideline for how to interact/debate peaceably. If you respond with anything else it goes unanswered from this point on. Period.