Ravens @ Panthers, Week 8 Gameday Thread

#fireHarbaugh

 

Balt acquires Ty Montgomery

 

I will quote firehalo "fireHarbaugh

 

They got him for nothing, so what’s the problem

 

The problem is it's a superficial fix. Whether he's a WR or a RB, he won't start. At WR he's no better than #5 as I can't see Chris Moore getting demoted for him. At RB, I'd be shocked if they put him over Buck, let alone Collins. So at best he's the #3 imo.

Let's assume he's at RB, he won't fix the run game. There was a stat showing Collins was in the top 2 of RBs hit behind the LoS. We can't run block for shit, so trade for a RB? That's just stupid.

And bonus, how stupid would it end up being to bench Cyrus Jones as the return man when he's done nothing to deserve it? More so, how stupid would it be for a coach that has cut two returners for fumbling to turn around and trade for a guy who's last football play was fumbling on a return??

If they aren't going to trade for an o-lineman corner or pass rusher then save the draft pick and maybe use it to move up in the next draft

 

He will be the 3rd down back/speed mismatch Balt hasn’t had since Rice/Woodhead...for 7th round pick it’s a steal

 

... until he fumbles again.

 

i don't think Harbaugh is so much the problem as is his undying, neverending commitment to Flacco because of that super bowl run he locked down for you all.

 

It's deeper than that. After Lewis and Reed left, Harbaugh has avoided drafting or signing strong personality players. He's not been a fan of alpha males.

Then, with coordinators, he's hired family friends who are all yes men. Coincidentally, the best OC we had was one that demanded free reign over the offense and wasn't a family friend. It's deeper than just his love for Joe

 

I fucking love you.

This should be stickied at the top of our boards for as long as John is here.

This cuts to the heart of the issue. John is an authoritarian who places his football acumen on faith in a higher power, which im fine with people doing generally, but being faithful has shit all to do with being a good coach or team or player. He is hubris personified and brings no real tactical nous to the job. We had a great team and great run so we won a ring. But just look at the things he is responsible, from hiring, to benching, to overall gameplans and he is found wanting time and time again.

2k

 

The benching players and the gameplan are the two things that piss me off more than anything.

He's being considered a bust, but I can't believe Tyus Bowser is that bad of a football player. He started off strong as a rookie and even won rookie of the week in week 2 after scoring a sack, INT, and a pass defended in limited snaps. Then idk what he did wrong against the Jags specifically, as if the whole defense wasn't benched, but Harbaugh puts him in the doghouse. As a rookie, he had 161 snaps on defense. In those 161 snaps, he recorded 3 sacks, 3 passes defended, and 1 INT. That's a great stat line for a rookie and a sign that he should have gotten more snaps last year.

And oh my god, the gameplans. At some point Biscotti has to look at things and realize there's a common denominator, or two, in all things bad. We've all mentioned the Ravens love of abandoning the run. We've blamed Marty, we've blamed Trestman, Cam Cameron got blamed for it. It's one of two things. Harbaugh is the reason they have called plays like they did, or Harbaugh is specifically hiring OCs that do the same shit. The most balanced play caller was the one that produced the best offense and ran things his way. Isn't that freaking amazing how that works?

Yeah, I'm all the way done with Harbaugh and I'm starting to question how much he even factored in to the wins in his first few seasons. Let's remember we did have a perennially great defense from 08 to 11. We had Alpha Males that could take over a game. Ozzie was drafting well also (not his early career legendary level, but still fairly well). Then we win a superbowl, John gets more control, and suddenly Ozzie's ability to draft takes a nose dive.

 

Nothing more to add other than. PREACH

2k

 

The Ravens lead the league dropped passes. How is Lamar going to fix that?

 

If that had such a hard-on for Hurst he likely would've been available to them in the 2nd round. I really was looking forward to Ridley, would've been very happy with Sutton or DJ Moore. All were available at their original #22 pick and only Moore was gone by their new spot at #25. Hurst is a good TE, but many reporters thought he could be their for them again with Gisecki and Goedert in the mix for top TE. Hurst may still turn into a stud, but WR was almost a can't miss situation for the at #22. Makes me think that Ozzie just doesn't have the balls to commit on the first WR available for fear of a bust. All three receivers are performing. DJ just had a breakout game with injuries making him a primary target. Denver just traded DT because they're that confident in Sutton and Ridely has already shown his ability.

Then they get Andrews in the 4th rd and he's been the rock in the TE corp. SMDH.

 

Well, we actually don't lead the league in drops, that goes to Jacksonville with 23. The Ravens have 12, which is only 3-4 more than the 16th and 17th teams (aka the middle teams). Granted some of the drops have been big (looking at you Crabtree)

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232

All that said, I can't speak to how Lamar would do in the passing game, but I think we've seen enough to say the running game could be better with him in. I can't find a link to back this up, but I don't think there's been a negative rushing play on any runs where Lamar was the QB. Whether he was handing it off or running himself. Defenders are forced to pick who they are going to focus on. If there's 8 in the box with Joe, they all go for the RB. If there's 8 in the box with Lamar, they have to hesitate and guess. Especially since Jackson has one of the best fake handoffs I've ever seen. It's like he fools the cameraman once a game while only averaging 5 snaps

Actually, I will say one thing about the drops, I wonder how much of it is on Joe's lack of touch. It's been mentioned for years that Joe is almost always throwing fastballs. Players have stated they had to get used to it. Steve Smith once commented on how Torrey Smith had to defend himself from a Flacco pass. We can even use examples this year with Hayden Hurst. In preseason and in that Panthers game, Hurst caught every pass from Lamar that was accurate. So far this season, he's been dropping passes from Joe. And we've all known that Joe has lacked touch his entire career

A lot of this may sound like I'm hating on Flacco. I'm not. I appreciate everything he's done for Baltimore over the years. I'll argue with anyone that he was the most important factor in Baltimore winning that superbowl 6 seasons ago and his performance was legendary. Hell, his playoff TD to INT ratio and win percentage is better than, I'd guess, at least 27 active QBs and likely around 20-30 all time at worst. But it doesn't help much if he plays so poorly in the regular season that you don't get back to the playoffs. His play is too flawed and too inconsistent in a time where the NFL is trying to make all QBs succeed with these rule changes.

What is starting to look like a 4th season in a row with no playoffs is just getting really frustrating to this Ravens fan. Especially when it's clear that the two biggest issues are likely the HC and QB and both need to go, regardless of what they've done in the past.

 

Damn, I need to stop these long posts lol

 

The Ravens simply cannot develop ANY WR, Granted all of those you mentioned are playing well, WHERE they are, if they were in Baltimore, they wouldn't get open, wouldn't get separation, would drop everything. The only WR since the Ravens moved to Baltimore that they drafted, that ended up being any good was Torrey Smith. Everyone else would be around for a couple years and disappear.

I wanted Ridley as well, but i have no confidence in our coaching staff in getting any young wide-out ready for the NFL.

 

To be clear, I was being figurative. The frustrated fan in me can get strident. Admittedly I didn't know our rank in that regard, but I knew it wasn't acceptable for a play off hopeful. But thanks for the stat - it's good to know.

That said I don't think it's Joe's lack of touch, nor is his touch bad. Talk to any coach and they won't ever complaint about their QB throwing too hard, and for receivers, "if you can touch it, you should catch it" is the train of thought. We had many winning seasons with Joe and this slide since 2014 in team wins just as he's hitting his prime years, with 11 years experience, throwing the ball better than he ever has, I just logically don't see that as the problem. Inconsistency? Sure, but not his touch. Besides, he's hitting players in the numbers and hands and they're not holding on or are out of position. They appear to have a consistency problem too. Crabtree didn't drop a pass all preseason and now he's 2nd in the league in drops with 7. Both Smokey and Snead have 7 combined on relatively the same number of receptions. All have relatively the same number of targets and receptions meaning Joe is spreading it around to 8-12 different receivers a game this season. Mason held onto Joe's passes. Boldin, Steve, Torrey and Pitta did too. We've always had crap coaching for pass catchers which is why they go and bring in veteran WRs every year and even they are hit and miss it seems.

I'm under no illusions about Joe. He holds some interesting record and his play ion the play offs is virtually impeccable. I agree that he needs more fire during the season. When he showed in 2012 we won a SB. He also used to rank toward the top of active QBs in 4th qtr comebacks for about 3-4 seasons before the SB.

The other knock I give him is that he never took ownership of the offense like elites or even top rookies seem to do and relinquished that to Harbs and the OCs. That emotional and professional investment builds a team and makes player want to perform for their QB. Lamar may have that trait, but again, he has a long way to go before he's and NFL passer and he won't be long for the league if he relies on his feet too much. From Cunningham to Watson they always end up on IR.

 

That's some revisionist history you have there. Steve Smith led the league in drops in 2014. Torrey had lots of drops. Boldin had more drops here than anyone expected (remember the famed 92 yard drive against Pittsburgh? He dropped two on that drive alone). Pitta I will agree had no issues with drops. But WRs ckme from teams with QBs who have some touch and then boom, they develop drop issues. I guess it's just a coincidence

I think I'm convinced the whole "Lamar has a long way to go" statement just gets repeated with no actual acknowledgment of his progress since being drafted.

Lamar's rookie preseason was better than Joe's rookie preseason. At worst it was on par. Joe was supposedly a year or 2 away as an NFL QB also when he was drafted, but people seem to forget that. I know the popular thing to do this week is point out how Lamar missed a wide open Snead in order to "prove" he isn't ready. But the 11 year, superbowl mvp, got intercepted throwing the ball away. How does a rookie making a rookie mistake get blown up more than an 11 year vet making a rookie mistake??

One thing that no objective person can deny is that from his first preseason game to now, Lamar has progressed. That's fact. The run game has been more successful with Lamar at QB. That's fact. Flacco, with his best pass blocking o-line and his best set of pass catchers, is still inconsistent. That's fact.

Since Ray and Ed left, Flacco and Harbaugh are exactly .500. The only other people around since then are Yanda and Suggs and it would be insane to think the average play or. wins as much as John and Joe

 

You guys are really down on Harbaugh. I read a national article about how he is on the hot seat today. Any chance the players give up on him today, knowing a loss followed by the bye week gives senior management time to dump him and install a replacement, allowing for an easy win for my beloved super steelers?