Hue Jackson - Should I Stay Or Should I Go Now Thread

Sorry to The Clash for this one.



Here you fellas go. Built you a clubhouse for all things Hue related. Have at it.........

 

Thanks Duff!!

 

When he was 3 games this season I hope that they give him a 5 year extension. Hue is good enough to keep you guys below five hundred

 

Hue Jackson:

Jimmy, you got to let me know.
Should the red flag stay or should I throw?
If you say helmet-to-helmet hits are fine,
I'll accept that until the end of time.
So you got to let me know...
Should that challenge flag stay or shall I throw?

It's always lose, lose, lose.
And you'll blame Hue, Hue, Hue.
But I blame Todd, and Greggggg, and Amos.
And can't wait to hit them with my bus.
Well, come on and let me know.
Should the red flag stay or should I throw?

If I throw there will be trouble.
If I don't we'll lose by double.
So c'mon and let me know....
Is 3-36-1 good? Or is that a 'no'?

 

I can't overlook the stupidity of Hue's press conference and certainly dislike his "throw others under the bus" mantra but, If a kicker doesn't miss 5 kicks, if Jabrill doesn't fumble the punt return in TB territory, if officials don't overturn a game-sealing first down, we're not having this conversation right now. In fact, the NFL talking heads are probably rumbling about a possible "Coach of the Year" bid. Now, that wouldn't be appropriate, either, but the point indeed stands. Assessing coaches as if they are the only factor in the wins and losses earned by the team is fundamentally pointless.

 

Solid point(s) by Doug. However, I am of the belief that the good that has happened is not because of Hue, and that he is just along for the ride. The man has shown that every minute he has been a head coach he has been overwhelmed and over matched.

That being said, relieving him half way through the season doesn't really do anything..UNLESS..they give Haley the HC job and a 3.5 yr contract. An interim will do more harm than good.

My other concern is if we move on from Hue for, say, Lincoln Riley, but keep Greggggg Williams to have continuity on one side of the ball, then we are once again going to have a shotgun wedding at 76 Lou Groza Blvd, and that will probably end as well as all the other forced pairings that we have had.

 

I agree with you here. I haven't seen much from Hue to make me believe he's a very good HC. I also haven't seen much from this team, until this year, that makes me think they have been a very good team during Hue's tenure. As I've said elsewhere, he keeps his job for rest of 2018 and is notified to "put out or get out" next year to keep his job. I honestly don't think the FO cans him in the off-season.

 

I would disagree in a few areas regarding he hasn't shown any HC potential. I actually thought his paying attention to the medical staff and insisting players who were "nicked" not be asked to practice during training camp showed a HC perspective. I think he's kept his distance from the OC / DC, allowing them to do what they believe is best for their units. I think the players are with him, at least up until this last week, when his worst attributes were aired.

I also believe he has been boxed in by Dorsey, and was told to choose his coaches, and then get out of their way. Pure speculation on my part, admittedly.

There are numerous actions he has taken or not taken that just drive me crazy though. He doesn't step up and blast the referees, which indicates one of two things in my mind: uncertainty, or insecurity. Either one is a killer for a HC. His clear and repeated tendency to throw others under the bus is the worst though. You can't have unity and singlemindedness of purpose, when all oars are not pulling in the same direction. Obviously!!! So, in what scenario does criticizing the O, the kicker, or the ball boy help?

I can live with and even support the decisions to let Gordon, and Coleman go. The freakish string of injuries have made that look bad, but I think it sent a message, and I think Coleman has already proven he or Dorsey was right, and I for one don't think Gordon, for all his talent would ever have applied himself in a Browns uniform. Even now in NE, with the NFL's best QB, he isn't a difference maker, and looks slightly lame (ankle?).

He's got a lot to learn, and maybe / probably won't. In which case we get a new HC next year, but for now I see the downside of making a change mid season, as far more destructive, than allowing Hue to oversee this team.

Still in all, a made instead of missed FG or two, along with a few ref's who don't need a cane, would shine a very different light on Hue and this young team.

 

Not to stoke the coals again, but ultimately I think the question boils down to this:

• Is Hue Jackson the head coach that will lead this team to a Super Bowl win?

Or, is he, like Sashi before him, the right man for the job at the time. To his credit, he's a players' coach and they love him. 3-35-1 is a bad record, but with the exception of a few games (Chargers 2018, Bears 2017, Cincinnati 2016 - present), the players don't appear to quit or hang in the towel.

(Anecdote: Joe Thomas mentioned this on his podcast, but he and Hawkins talked about times in 2016 where they would stand on the sideline, look across to the opponent, and know in warm-ups that they weren't going to win. That cannot be an easy situation to coach or manage through.)

So back to the original premise, I am of the mindset that this is the coach for today because he's the right fit at this time, but as soon as we have a chance to upgrade (vis-a-vis, swapping Sashi for Dorsey), we will.

 

Just to ease my curiosity, who else, if anybody, could you say this about now/today? For this exercise, just consider who might be available in the next season or two (cause I certainly don't mean an already employed top coach - NFL or college - who isn't moving on from their job.) I know you've already mentioned Riley in other posts.

 

I have an archetype and not necessarily a running list of names... offensive-minded, adaptable, college or near-college system, and accountable. Yes, that basically sounds like Lincoln Riley but I don't necessarily believes it needs to be a younger coach (McVay). Reid and Pederson are definitely not in the young column but are adaptive coaches with college systems, so the "from where" could be anywhere.

 

Thanks @SAS

 

Three years ago, I didn't even know who Sean McVay was...I don't want the Browns to chase after a big name in an attempt to bring legitimacy. If he's the right guy, that's fine. But keep minds open...There's another McVay out there somewhere just waiting for an opportunity.

 

I cropped and transplanted this from the Week 8 Thread because I think it warrants further discussion . . .

I'm not so certain that "age" is the proper metric to look at.

We all know that a player must be removed from high school for, at least three years to be eligible for the NFL draft. Typically, that would make a player 21 years old. However, a players' age upon graduating from high school is dependent upon how old he was when he started school. I did some research and discovered that each state specifies a cut-off date where a child must be age 5 (one state was age 4) on or before that date in order to start school. These cut-off dates vary anywhere from June 1st to October 31st. Now, add in that a student can skip a grade(s) and graduate at an earlier age or be held back a grade(s) due to academics or heath issues and graduate at a higher age. Then there's the added variable of is the player a red-shirt sophomore or a fifth year senior (this one alone can cause a 3 year difference in age).

What I'm suggesting is, instead of looking at "Oldest or Youngest" roster, use years experience in the NFL instead. Rookies = 0, 2nd year players = 1, 3rd year players = 2, etc.

If you look at it by "Most Experienced Roster", the top five teams now become;

• Raiders: 1-5-0 4.8 years
• Panthers: 4-2-0 4.5 years
• Patriots: 5-2-0 4.5 years
• Bills : 2-5-0, Eagles: 3-4-0, Lions: 3-3-0 and Cardinals: 1-6-0 all at 4.1 years

Conversely, the "Least Experienced Rosters" are;

• Cowboys: 3-4-0, Vikings: 4-2-1, Texans: 5-3-0 and Seahawks: 3-3-0 all at 3.1 years
• Bengals: 4-3-0 3.0 years
• Colts: 2-5-0 3.0 years
• Browns: 2-4-1 2.6 years

 

Combined for 19-27 (0.413).

Combined for 23-24-2 (0.469).

 

I would add to my list that I don't want a re-tread NFL coach (Jeff Fisher, Jim Schwartz, Jack del Rio).

The game is changing. The offense is favored - and the higher octane, the better. That "old school" style of thinking isn't going to cut it, especially as this continues to evolve.

 

I can do the math, as well. Does it make more sense to look at rosters by experience, rather than age?

 

I think there's merit, sure. But just like looking by age alone, it's only a portion of the whole picture.

Eric Mangini traded away young talent for veteran, back-up quality players. It dramatically increased the age, and experience, of the team... and we went 4-12. The Raiders are the oldest, most veteran team in the NFL and they're 1-5*.

Age of the players, experience of the players (Brandon Weeden was a 29 year old rookie, for example), and perceived talent all have to be evaluated. And then a head coach has to do something with that.

Let's take the focus off Hue and go with the Los Angeles Rams for a second. Jeff Fisher, an old-school and well-respected head coach, was so miserable as a head coach his last season there that he almost ruined Todd Gurley's will to play football (11 touchdowns, 98.0 YPG, clearly #1 RB in the NFL this year). Jared Goff went 0-7, looked lost, and most people said they made a mistake not drafting Carson Wentz.

Sean McVay takes over. The offense becomes the best in football over two seasons. Goff legitimately is a Top 5 quarterback. Todd Gurley leads the league in rushing (and was second last season). They had (have) a very young roster, too. Did they suddenly get ultra-talented? Extra experience (obviously, every starter got an extra year from 2016 under Fisher to 2017)?

 

I don't disagree with you TD, but for every McVay, there are 10 that are his antithesis and another 20 that last a little while, but fade into mediocrity. Hell, one of the biggest coordinator names out there is Josh McDaniels who already tore one perennially good team down before being fired for a rules infraction. Tucked tale between legs, 1 year stint with the Rams, then back to Belichick's errand boy who is receiving enough credit to warrant other suitors for a HC position.

Like I said I understand your mindset here, but I am still very worried about giving the HC position to another offensive coordinator without HC experience. Most of the time, they are overwhelmed when they attempt to be the HC and OC. McVay is a rare breed and the Rams got lucky. The guy can recite plays from 8 years ago, including the time left on the clock. I'm not sure very much overwhelms him. The guy was hired by John Gruden right out of college and his ascent is unprecedented. He didn't have ANY HC experience, college, high school or otherwise. The guy is just brilliant.

I'm not pretending to have an answer if/when Hue's end of year evaluation prompts the Browns to make a change. It's difficult for us to even know who the candidates are. That is one reason though that I am relieved John Dorsey is at the helm and not Sashi Brown. When it comes time, Dorsey has ALL the connections that is needed in the Football World. Sashi can run numbers, but having numbers in his Rolodex to find a suitable coach, I'm not sure I would trust.

That's the ONE reason, if they have already made their mind up by then, I wouldn't mind if they let him go after the bye week. With 11 games in the books, I don't think an interim coach would stunt Baker's growth as much as mid-season would...But, it would give Dorsey a head start on searching for an answer at the position. The more months of scouring he gets, the better...AND if they want to give Haley a shot, well, see what you got for 5 games. If he showed enough promise, give him a make it or break it season next year... I don't want to waste very much of Baker Mayfield's career looking for a coach though. I want to have one in place and let HIM be the fuel to making this team great. Peyton Manning made a few coaches look better than they actually were, I believe. Jim Caldwell was 24-8 (.750) with Manning, 2-14 (.125) without Manning, but with the same players that Manning had around him. Manning also spent his entire career, with the exception of Caldwell who was his QB coach before being named HC, with Defensive HC's, every single one other than Caldwell, until his final season when Kubiak inherited a team ready for the Super Bowl and won it on the backs of their defense.

My hope is Baker can do the same for a team. HE will be the offensive fuel, the HC imho, needs to have his hand on the pulse of the defense. Regardless, any future coach needs to have coordinators on both sides of the ball...I don't want anyone, unless they are a savant like McVay, to have too much to do.

 

I think it also matters where that experience is. For example, DAL, MIN, HOU, SEA and CIN all make the list of least experienced and have a combined record of 19-15-0. They all have, at least, a competent QB (well . . . maybe not Cincy). And they all have more than single NFL caliber WR.

I think its safe to assume that we now have a competent NFL quarterback ourselves . . . FINALLY!

For the record . . . I'm not saying Hue Jackson is on the same level as Sean McVay. Not many Head Coaches are. Lets just let Dorsey put some more tools in the tool box and see what happens.

In the meantime, I plan on expanding this and see how it shakes out over the course of an entire season or two.