1. 1-31 makes that an obvious observation 2. Honestly, I don't know if this is objective or subjective. What other measuring stick do we have at this point in time? Saying first round picks hit on a 45% rate, doesn't mean that both of the Browns picks won't be on the good side....or the bad side...of that number. 45% is highly objective since 2012...what it Can't measure is 2018. The only objective numbers we have is where the professionals decided to draft them. If you take into account the moves that were made though...it is really difficult to argue that there is a good chance the gap has been closed. What we can't measure is by how much. Three more points to argue. 1) Ben Roethlisberger, injuries and thoughts of retirement are wearing on him. We don't know which year his QB wall hits him in the face. 2) Todd Haley, was the Pittsburgh offense a product of Haley, or was Haley a product of their offense? If the scales tip towards Haley, then the Browns gain and the Steelers lose in one simple move...Haley going from the Steelers to the Browns. 3) WHEN will Le'Veon Bell show up to camp? New OC, maybe not a totally new offense, but if he isn't there learning with his team it could limit what the Steelers are able to do week one against the Cleveland Browns. There are a lot of points adding up to an upset in week one...that's all I'm saying.
Irish, your argument is that the Browns improved more than the Steelers (or, as you've said, any other team) did? The Browns had more room for improvement than the Steelers (or any other team) did. If they didn't massively improve, then that would be a real problem. Moreover, let's wait to see what impact these young guys have (rookies especially) before we go saying they've really made a given amount of improvement, first.
Take it from someone with a lot of homer enthusiasm, I can appreciate yours... However, that is a highly subjective take on Edmunds. He might become just what you are saying, but it is more likely that Denzel Ward becomes the top CB in the AFCN than Edmunds being the top safety...imho. I actually loved Washington coming out, but as a complimentary receiver, not a #1 guy. I DO believe he will help the Steelers, but that might depend on the development of Rudolph sooner than later. Removing Mitchell, probably won't have as big of an impact as the Browns removing DeShone Kizer...just saying...
Rudolph takes over when Roethlisberger retires. Haley is a piss poor communicator, that is why the Steelers canned him.
Agreed. Agreed again. I agree that it's a possibility, and would add that it's the kind of game that can be an early tone setter for the 2018 Browns. Youth is going to be their advantage and their disadvantage.
Just saw that Tim essentially addressed my same points. I think you sloughed off that question regarding having the most room to improve, Irish. If your argument is that the team got a lot better, it has to be addressed that that should be the case, given how much room there was to do so.
Give me a break dline...it gets old...We are on the Browns board speculating on what could happen.. I haven't stated the Browns are taking over the AFCN in one off season... you are just as much an instigator as stopper is. It has been stated until I am blue in the face that this is all prospective, not necessarily impact. What I AM STATING CLEARLY IS THAT THE BROWNS DID MORE THIS OFF SEASON THAN ANY OTHER TEAM... It is FACT. I haven't said that it has vaulted the Browns to the top of the food chain in any way. Otherwise, why in the fuck would I say that I expect somewhere between 5-8 wins? Does that sound like someone that thinks his team has jettisoned to the top?
Yes, well aware... The last receiver to put a major impact onto their team is Calvin Johnson. Awards are great for college, it doesn't change who and what they are in the NFL. Baker Mayfield won a lot of awards too, but he has to develop into a NFL caliber player...it won't be handed to him because of awards in his past.
This is a moot point.. Isn't it OBVIOUS that they had the most room for improvement? If you didn't already understand that, then you aren't intelligent enough to be discussing the NFL. Fact: Browns lost two games to Pittsburgh in 2017, by a combined amount of 7 points...Now, the Steelers in week 17 sat half their starters, so that number is subjective...but, the difference in the Browns roster from 2017 to 2018 is where I am making my point. The Steelers should improve from 2017, but that will come mostly from players that were already playing in 2017. The Browns have MORE players that should show similar improvement in 2018, along with a multitude of additions to the roster. This isn't a Kenny Britt for Terrelle Pryor discussion like we had last year. The Browns added proven starters in the NFL, along with all the depth they lost during the Sashi Brown era. They aren't completely rebuilt, but this roster is night and day between 2017 and 2018.
I wasnt gonna use guys like Brown, Ben, Suggs, Smith cause their proven studs...the reason for multiple teams is to show you the division has young talent....Gordon wasnt even close to the best WR so thats your opinion...I will say again he did a lot of his stat padding when games were decided...also 9 TDs doesnt scream best
Alright, Irish - I'm gonna go ahead and pretend like you're not being a dick right now, and also assuming things that I didn't say or mean. You didn't tell Tim he was unintelligent or an instigator, so I'd ask you to back up a damn step, and let's talk like decent human beings - there's not call for anything else. What I'm saying is this: you're going on about how improved the Browns are compared to other teams, but that's not really a feat in comparison to those teams. It's easier to improve on Kizer than Roethlisberger ; easier to improve on your WR corps than Pittsburgh's ; easier to improve on... We both get it. And I'm glad we both get it (without hurling insults). But you keep shouting how improved they are, so... I guess what I'm asking is, what's the actual point you're trying to make? Because if it's, very simply, "The Browns are the most improved in comparison to everyone else", and you acknowledge that they should be given conditions, then the rest of us would respond with, "Yeah, of course".
Not an instigator....anybody can make bold predictions w/out repercussions....you didnt think the Browns wee going 0-16 last year....no big deal whatever record you predicted....nothing happened....I can predict Rudolph will be better than Mayfield and if he isnt what happens?
Exactly....Pitt didnt need to improve their starting QB position...Ben is still WAY better than Taylor and arguably the worst QB in the division....improvement?
I didn't say you were unintelligent either, you implied it from my comment. My point was that yours was a moot point. It doesn't even take someone intelligent to deduce a team that has gone 1-31 over a two year span has more room for improvement than any other team, unless there was a team that went 0-32 over that same span. I don't have to infer anything with Tim, because he NEVER comes to the Browns boards to spark an argument, it is 99% of the time in the form of sparking a conversation. I didn't call you any names, or infer as much... unlike your inference that I am being a dick... So the backstepping should probably come from your shoes. What I am DOING is having a conversation about the Browns roster on the Browns board during the slowest time of the NFL season. I didn't say anything about the amount of improvement over the other 30 teams in the NFL, you did... Stopper brought up the AFCN and so I began the debate over roster improvement with the worst and best teams from 2017. There is no way to do a side by side comparison of the two rosters because so much has changed from 2017 to 2018. All I can show is those changes, which is what I did. If you can't look at the Browns 2017 roster and the new "IMPROVED" 2018 roster and think intelligently that it is an improvement, then I don't think we have anything to talk about. The post laid out exactly what was done. These weren't posts stating that the Browns have overtaken the Steelers in talent. Stopper made the "point" that all the teams in the AFCN improved in this current off season. As far as Steelers additions, I can't point to any that show that the roster is stronger in 2018, than the 2017 version. It is implied that current starters will improve with experience, which I agreed with whole heartily, but there weren't any new names that were replacing old ones that will make a drastic change in production. The Browns, I don't see any position group on the offense that hasn't improved overall, with additions, not ONLY experience being a driving factor. Thus, I can conclude by this study that the Browns should close the gap in talent level with the Steelers. I think I made it clear...there isn't a point. This is the slowest part of the year in football if you aren't a CFL fan, which I am not. Stopper made a statement that all the teams made improvement and I was simply laying out all the moves made by these two teams. I do believe in doing so, it shows the Browns made MORE improvement than the Steelers made. That is no indictment on the obvious fact that the Browns had a lot more room for improvement, it simply shows where the focus on the improvement should come from. It can't be stated, how much more a team improves over another. We have a few weeks, any one that wants to spend their time (like I was willing to do) showing ANY team they would like to in off season moves, we can debate whether the improvement is relative or not. The Browns, by all indications made a huge leap in talent from one year to the next. We weren't simply changing out already talented players. We were taking positions that didn't have talent and placing talent in those holes. It is a major difference over what many teams are facing. Not to mention the utter lack of depth at every position. It gives credence to the "why or how" a professional team could have won 1 game in 32 tries over a two year period. It also gives hope to the actual Browns fans on this board that a major change in the form of wins could be on the horizon. I understand you could care less about that aspect, but if you really don't care, then the general boards is a better place to get objective conversations going.
But Pittsburgh did improve the QB position to the point where they now have the top two QBs in the AFCN.
As a group yes but starting position Ben is still the best QB in the division...Taylor is probably the worst
