Bears vs Packers Must Win Game Thread

Thanks @Mongo_76 . I'm waiting for the vet who should be here in an hour to euthanize her.

I'm sorry about my comment to you. I didn't mean it.

 

Are you saying you were cool with the playcalling up until the 4th quarter? There was a handful of drives that went run, run, pass that were 3 and outs. Then we got down by 10 points and opened it up.

And if Mackladder's stat is correct, that's still too predictable for first down.

 

In the first half we went 3 and out twice.
Run +4
Pass -6 sack
Pass inc
Punt
Pass -5 sack
Run-1
Pass-2 sack
Punt
The first possession was pretty bad after a second down pass for +12 Loggains went run run for -4 then a pass for +8 and a punt

Second half had 2 3 and outs
Run+1
Run+5
Pass-8 sack
Punt
Pass-8 sack
Pass inc
Pass+10
Punt

Over all on first down 11run and 13 pass
On second down 8run 13 pass
On third down 0 run 14 pass

6 of the first down passes were after we were down by 10.

Hope that helps out.

 

I think this whole convo has gone in a weird direction...

Basically, my point was, at least this week, he opened the play book up a lot more - especially in the pass game. there were a lot more seam route passes, slants and deeper curls. It wasn't the usual dink and dunk.

I think Loggains plays too conservatively in general. But last week, I didn't see the same conservative approach - for whatever reason.

 

He passed more....I don't really feel he opened the playbook.

By that I mean that the Bears are extremely predictable by formation. They telegraph runs and they almost only pass when it's a predictable passing down. They passed more Sunday because they were consistently behind the chains and saw a ton of 3rd and long situations.

If you really want to truly open the playbook...you gotta mix up your packages and formations. You gotta run out of passing formations and vice versa. There has to be some kind of creativity and something to make a defense guess. You gotta check out of situations when the defense has obviously guessed, correctly, where the run you're about to use is gonna go.

This is one of the most predictable, generic, basic, bland offenses I have ever seen. I realize Trubisky hasn't played much...in college or the pros....but if you put him on the field then you gotta trust he can run the offense and allow him to do so.


For me....Loggains summed himself up this week when he was asked why Tarik Cohen hasn't been on the field and used more. His answer was basically...."Sometimes defenses dictate who is out there on offense".

No. That's not how football works. Offenses are supposed to dictate what personnel the defense uses...not the other way around. Cohen has a long way to go to be a good, every down player but he has worked effectively as a distraction to defenses. Shaheen has shown an ability to get open and square his shoulders to the QB to be a good target....he barely gets his number called. McBride barely saw the field Sunday despite playing well in New Orleans...while drop happy Bellamy gets all the playing time in the world.

This coaching staff is just awful.

 

That right there is the mentality of a loser who doesn't even care to improve his situation. He's admitting he's not capable of, nor even willing to try, beating defenses with his own schemes. Un-fucking-real.

And Pace trusted his first round QB with this guy?

 

You think Sean Payton, Andy Reid, or Doug Pederson give a crap what the defense is gonna line up in before they call a play?

They force defense to adjust to them.

 

I still cannot get over the fact that he actually admitted that publicly to the media. Wow. You're right, that says it all about this staff. And make no mistake that mentality trickles down from the head coach.

 

Agree he passed more. But disagree that he didn't open the play book.. I think he attacked their secondary. IT was the fist week that I actually felt we didn't go "run, run, pass". The play log agrees with that.

I thnk that with a real receiver, they were able to run some formations that I personally haven't seen them go to previously. The deep TD to Bellamy is one example. But also some deeper seam routes and some deeper slants.

Don't disagree with this at all. And don't disagree that his formations are as easy to read. But this also doesn't contradict that he wasn't playing as conservatively as he had in the past. He certainly wasn't trying to "run" the clock out. In fact, I felt the Packers were actually doing that...

 

Agree with BWW. When was the last time you saw the Bears run a delayed hand off from a shotgun? That alone would surprise the shit out of a defense.

It’s become a “if you see this, then it’s that” for defenses.

How about spreading out on first down, then completing a slant pass? Could you imagine the possibilities on 2nd and 3? Wow! Crazy!

On the other hand, I think that Loggains is doing what Fox is telling him to do. He needs to grow a set and tell Fox that it’s his offense and to fuck off. The yard gnome is letting himself be chained to the old man’s tree.

Loggains is a much better coordinator than we are seeing but he’s taking orders from the head coach to play field position and protect the ball and the QB.

Why are we stuck in this cycle of try to score 13 points and run the clock out??

Hire a head coach from this era for fuck’s sake!!!

 

Well he took over arguably the worst Defense in the league and today its at/around the top10. And as i said, thats been achieved with zero help on the other side of the ball, and minimal resources directed towards it in terms of draft picks/FA's. No one can turn water into wine buddy, but no probs, next year when the Bears fuck up their coaching appointments again and the Defense is back in the cellar i'll remind you of how hard we had it watching Fangio's borderline top10 Defense

You know you were far less of an absolutist when you were younger ; )))))

 

This isn't excuse making, cos the Offense annoys me as much as anyone....... but the one thing they have achieved with this approach re Trubisky is they have successfully cut the turnovers way down.

Now, it hasn't produced more Offensive production really and it hasn't produced wins, BUT, it may be helping the kid's confidence which will help his development over time. Nothing saps a QB's confidence in himself more than throwing a ton of picks. Its all well and good throwing more, but it would undoubtedly lead to more INT's and the resultant consequences re Trubs confidence levels then.

They're bringing Trubisky along at a snails pace, and game to game its tough to watch. One of our failings as fans is we're so close its hard sometimes to keep perspective. There's a path for Trubisky, but sorry, its not a Deshaun Watson kinda path, was never gonna be. He's not in that situation and he's just not that player yet. MT is talented, i think he can make it, but its gonna take time cos he is extremely raw.

The mechanics fail him at times, and there's the lack of experience under C etc, but a great a example of how raw he is was the "wrongside" bootleg they ran in the 3rdQ. That should've been a positive play of 8yards minimum. Trubs rolled out to his left had a receiver wide open and only one defender anywhere near him. The ball should've been out immediately and drive goes on, but he also had space enough and wheels enough that if he'd took off immediately Trubs could've got outside Perry and turned it up field. But he dithered, the throwing window closed and by the time he tried to slip the defender it was too late. TERRIBLE play, the one thing you don't do there is take the sack, but thats what happened.

Trubisky is raw in ways players of his draft slot really shouldn't be, but this is the situation now. I do think there's a balance to be struck which the Bears aren't getting right currently, and you know me i'll blame Fox & Pippin Took for anything. But the situation re Trubisky isn't easy. It would be a lot less tough if the Boy Blunder had given Trubsiky any kind of genuine support at WR. But then Pace is a window licker.

This was Loggains Mel Tucker moment, when he couldn't even describe what a cover3 D is. For that halfling to say something that stupid and that wrong, publicly, is just unbelievable.

Nothing else needs to be said really, no future HC position, no future OC position, get this fucktard out the building asap. But hey, Fox always gets great co-ordinators......

 

I look at this like I look at the Lovie situation. A few guys were saying the same thing when he fired and I kept saying then I'm not looking back, no regrets about that firing. You're right in that we probably will fuck up the next hire, but again I've seen enough of Fangio to know that I'm ready to move on. The lack of turnovers over the last 3 years is most damning and to me does go back to coaching more than the lack of talent on the field. If your defense shits the bed against a bad offense missing it's best OT and HOF QB at home in bad weather then that is indefensible.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes and this goddamn team has forced me to the dark side.

 

I said the same as you about Lovie at the time and have no regrets about it now either. But there are key differences between the Lovie and Fangio situations.

As a HC Lovie wasn't getting his team to the playoffs enough. His trademark Defense was beginning to be found out schematically and the personnel running it were aging. The arrow was pointing down. Shitcanning him then was one of the few forwarding thinking moves the Bears have made in 30years.

Fangio took over the worst D in the league and has improved them in spite of the obstacles already mentioned. They are better going by both the numbers and the eye. They are a top10ish D, and in a pretty prototypically Fangio way when you look at the stats. They are clearly still on an upward trajectory.

Sundays game stunk, but the D has kept this team in virtually every game this season. They are way better than 1,2 years ago.

People can be disappointed at the lack of turnovers if they want, but i hope they're not suprised. Because anyone who is, its on you.

Fangio is not a huge turnovers guy, he wasn't in San Fran, this should've been well known when he got here. In SF, much like Chicago, the strength of Fangio's D lay in forcing punts and keeping opponents out the endzone. Its very interesting to look at Defensive rankings for the 2011-2014 9ers versus the 2017 Bears.

In San Fran Fangio's D ranked top5 in yards per/game all 4years he was there. In points p/g they ranked 10th in 2014, 2011-13 they ranked 2nd, 2nd & 3rd. For turnovers they were top5 only once, in 2011, the other 3 years they were middle of the pack right around 16th. Sacks varied considerably(possibly injury related), from 7th down to 21st and right in between.

To re-iterate this years numbers, the D ranks 9th in ypg and 12th in ppg and way down in TO's. Thats remarkably similar, especially when you factor in the talent disparity between that 49ers D and this Bears D. There's more:

The Bears D's current ranking of 5th & 9th for 3 & outs and red zone D respectively..... well the 9ers ranking for those in 2013(Fangio's 3rd year) was 3rd & 11th. All these numbers are like looking at the numbers of a team in one city, the only real difference is the raw talent levels of the players Fangio has to work with. The same model that was successfully being applied in SF is being applied here.

There are one or two differences ie Fangio maybe knows the talent level isn't the same which is why he's been blitzing far more this year than he used to(which only makes sundays lack of blitzes even more inexplicable tbh).

But overall this is a Fangio D. And again, yes, sunday stunk. But apply a longer time frame to smooth out single-game spikes and dips...... and the Fangio model is being applied and seems to be working. The D has given the O a chance to win almost every game this season.

The issue with this team is not the Defense or the guy running it. The issue is the Offense.

 

To me there is just a very big difference between opening up the playbook....and passing more often because you're consistently behind the chains and in a lot of 2nd and long and 3rd and long situations.

 

I am disappointed not surprised. I don't care what the trend was in SF. Especially since the defense doesn't seem capable of delivering that knockout blow in the way you seem to think. It's rare given how often we play from behind, but I don't feel good with the game in the hands of the defense and the game on the line. Remember in 2015 we had numerous games where the defense had a meltdown at the end. A rare exception was the Thanksgiving Packers game.

 

This defense doesn't rush the passer well enough to be trusted to close out close games.

Hicks and Floyd have mainly played at a high level but there isn't enough consistent pressure coming from the front 7.

 

I've been pretty much arguing this from the standpoint of a guy watching the game. And viewing the play log, it's pretty easy to show he wasn't in "run, run, pass" mode for this game.

But, when I say he opened the playbook, it was also from the perspective of watching a much more vertical passing attack.

Now, whether that was because the Bears were in more deep Down and distance sets or not? I suppose so.

But that's kinda besides the point. The point is the passing game plan was much more aggressive and Trubisky was not dinking and dunking.

Against the Saints, Trubs average air yards per pass was 3.72 yards. Against the Packers, it was 9.06. That isn't an insignificant difference. It's massive.

Now, this isn't me backing Loggains or Fox. This isn't me saying they are the right coaches. It's not me saying the offensive sets aren't transparent. It isn't even me saying I was happy with the offense. It's purely me saying that I felt that he opened up the playbook in the passing game much more last week than we have seen in previous games with Trubisky.

 

I know, cos you're in a wilful ignorance kinda place right now. But its ok, im here to help. It was you who made a direct comparison between Lovie and Fangio when you said this vvvvv

Until Sunday they seemed to start to figure out how to produce turnovers after 2 straight years of failing to do that. Why did that take so long? Some of that has to be on Fangio. Right? Lovie preached turnovers every minute of every day and look at the results. Maybe Fangio does the same but the results aren't there. They don't seem to be looking for the turnover like Lovie's D did.

The purpose of the SF info was to show who Fangio is as a coach. And its clear he's nothing like Lovie. The difference isn't down to talent or effectiveness, its down to philosophy. They both approach Defense in completely different ways.

It's like saying why isn't the Offense doing the same as Tampa or Arizona, who are both top5 passing Offenses and bottom5 running Offenses. Does that sound like the 2017 Bears to you? The whole thing would be pointless.

I've actually never stated that they can or do deliver the knockout blow with any consistency, i've said they give the Offense a legit chance to win the game nearly every week which they do.

You say you give Fangio credit for the good games.... i haven't seen you referencing the super-human effort against Carolina this season, they won that game on their own no question. Instead you seem to want to cherry pick bad games from seasons past that have little context. Very even handed of you.

Of course not, who would with the talent level they have? Tell me who the playmakers are on that Defense. At some point you need the guys on the field to make plays.

2015? You mean the year right after they had the worst Defense in the history of the team? Fangio's first season? Where the starters consisted of players like bumarr Houston, Shea McClellin, Tracy Porter, Alan Ball & Ryan Mundy???! Come on.

You yourself said there hasn't been enough progress made. Then go on to mention meltdowns in 2015. How many meltdowns have there been in 2017? Only the game in GB comes close. And yes it fucking stinks that it was GB, AGAIN. But the aren't giving up 50points, they are giving up 40points. They've given up 30+points in a game ONCE this season.

Thats progress whether people can face it or not.


NOW, having said all that and spent part of my week banging the drum for Fangio and the D..... watch them lay an egg tonight heh

 

Not sure i even like putting the two in the same sentence. Hicks was lights out that first half of the season. Floyd has had some good games but nowhere near the same impact level. He's supposed to be a difference maker and he simply doesn't make enough of a difference.

Floyd was drafted 4 spots lower than Khalil Mack was in 2014. Mack had 15sacks his 2nd season and has already gone all-pro twice. At this point Floyd is struggling to justify the pick imo.