Sorry, I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I feel this roster got better or stayed the same talent-wise at every position group but one. Tough to blast those other spots when I do believe they got better and we’re a worse team because of it.
Meh. Make that three or four. WR got worse or crappier utilization at least....leaning towards crappier WR's myself. Lost a TE, Pryor (based on last year's performance) and signed Britt who just figuratively took the money and ran except he's too crappy to actually run. Kicker......need I point out the glaring problem here? Of course QB. Does Head Coach count as a position? RB or utilization but that may require us simply to "See #4"
Your point about utilization is 100% on. I have been constant in my criticism of the two biggest issues: Kizer and Hue. Hue is honestly a bigger issue than Kizer, THB.
Terrelle Pryor was a 1,000 yard receiver in 2016, he was replaced with a guy that has been sat on the bench for multiple weeks because of his attitude....So that argument can immediately be thrown out the window. Who are worse? I guess I would know that if you spent as much time looking that up instead of losing sleep over Kizer... Again...In REALITY, not your opinion, which receiving group was worse? Hmm, what are our wide receivers averaging. As for Njoku, he is not producing at the same level as Barnidge and Barnidge regressed last year..
I still think Njoku is a stud. We simply don't have a QB that can get him the ball. That was the most aggravating play we had in London. Busted coverage on Njoku, WIDE open down the sideline for the easy TD, and Kizer throws a laser 5 yards over his head....Even the record setting high jumper couldn't get that one.
Terrelle Pryor was a 1,000 yards receiver with a majority of the throws coming from Cody Kessler. This season, he's got 240 yards through eight games. He was replaced with Kenny Britt, a 1,000 yard receiver with the much maligned-rookie Jared Goff throwing him the football. This season, he's got 128 yards through five games with Kizer throwing him the football. Off the top of my head, the starting combination of Massoquoi and Robiskie has to be considered one of the worst ever. 2010: Mohamed Massaquoi, Chansi Stuckey leading receivers. 200.2 YPG among all receivers. 2009: Mohamed Massaquoi, Chansi Stuckey leading receivers. 140.0 YPG among all receivers. For reference sake, we're at 222.8 this season. Down from 230.8 last season. 222.8 yards per game. Barnidge gave us 38.3 YPG last season. He hasn't been signed by anyone this season, which would seem to give some indication of his ability/value. Njoku and DeValve - both of whom are getting an embarrassingly low snap count are averaging 24.4 and 24.3, respectively (48.7 combined).
Hey SAS, you're the resident stats guy.....do they have anything on WRs getting open? If they do, I'm pretty sure that the Browns' stats will be dragging the league average down.
Barnidge was the second leading receiver on the entire team in 2016, that's why I thought it relevant. So, you are knocking Barnidge, then using TWO PLAYERS to equate to his team worth? Typical... Barnidge saw 81 targets the entire season, Njoku has 32 and DeValve has 32 over 8 games..So over 16 games, Barnidge averaged 5 targets per game, they are averaging 8 targets per game, or 1 less per player per game....I really don't understand what your point is here. Look, I am not knocking Njoku, I like the kid and feel he will eventually become a great asset to this team..What I am knocking is lack of veteran leadership, something Barnidge could have definitely helped with this season in the TE room. That's a bullshit statement and you know it..He had 1,000 yards in a contract season and hasn't lifted a finger to earn that contract since he got here..THAT is the difference, not Goff vs Kizer..He was benched for dropping too many balls and not giving a crap about it.. Where are you getting your stats from? The same source you get drops? Our wide receivers are averaging 105.6 yards per game this season... Ricardo Lewis 292 Rashard Higgins 150 Kenny Britt 128 Kasen Williams 84 Bryce Treggs 79 Corey Coleman 62 Jordan Leslie 26 Sammie Coates 24 Total yards out of our wide receivers is 845 through 8 games, which equates to 105.6 yards per game.
Next Gen Stats does a "Separation" stat, which measures distance between receiver and defender at time of catch. Obviously, there's a QB/WR component to this one. Tops in the category for the Browns: David Njoku - 2.9 Seth DeValve - 2.8 Rashard Higgins - 2.8 Ricardo Louis - 2.4 Kenny Britt - 2.3 League-best is Travis Benjamin (3.8) and league-worst is Alshon Jeffery (1.7). By quartile - Njoku, DeValve, and Higgins are all second quartile, Louis is third quartile, and Britt is bottom quartile. However, a stud WR like Julio Jones is technically bottom quartile as well (2.3 like Britt) because the offense/QB is forcing the ball in his direction.
You cant look at this in a vacuum. If you use Pryor's numbers from last year as your guide, then you have to use Britt's or it's an inaccurate comparison at best. Both have put up similar numbers to me this season. As far as the TE, when you lose a TE that nobody picks up, I don't think you can count it as a loss, no matter how much you like 'Big Play Gar'.
This team does not care about that. Hue thinks he is the only leadership needed. The biggest mistake was letting Josh McCown go....What the hell were they thinking? This team goes out every Sunday and plays hard, but in the back of everyone's mind, they know we don't have a QB. We are psychologically defeated before the game ever starts, because there is nobody under Center for them to believe in... Announcing Kizer as the starter in preseason was a bold move. Not having any significant veteran presence behind him, was just plain stupid...
Apples to apples comparison. Browns receivers have 1,782 yards on the season over 8 games. You're discounting our tight ends and running backs and grossly undervaluing them against the stat I gave you for Green Bay - which includes all receivers as well. If you want to count just wide receivers, Green Bay's have been averaging 155.3 YPG this season. The numbers with Rodgers was 168.3 YPG and with Hundley, it's been 116.0 YPG. And I win again... using bare numbers for just wide receivers, Chicago is averaging 82.3 YPG. If you're going to come at me, you best come correct.
By all reports I've read - Hue's call in moving on from McCown in the offseason and by naming Kizer the starter over Osweiler, they made the choice there to in going without a vet on the roster.
This team always has difficulty getting out of it's own way....Just another glaring indicator that Hue Jackson is not the QB "guru" we all thought he was.
Numbers don't always tell the whole tale SAS "Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination." -Vin Scully
It's eerie seeing the articles written around the time of his firing in Oakland and/or talking to Raiders fans about his time there. Ego. Hubris. Arrogance. All things we're seeing with him. He went 8-8 and still lost his job. Had to be something there. We'd throw a parade for an 8-8 coach.
Not saying they do. However, bare wide receiver numbers were exactly what was being argued. I use the analytics/stats the way they are meant to be used - to support a position based on observable fact. It's one thing to sit here and make gut-feeling statements about this position group or that head coach but those are flimsy without supporting evidence.
I can appreciate that but, to argue a point of procedure here, you're forming your theory and finding stats to prove it and discounting all others. Not quite the scientific method where you posit a theory, gather the data and see if your theory holds water and either prove what's true or revise the theory and go again. I'm sure if I really cared and had the time I could argue just about anything by finding the stats. But that is rather here nor there. If this game were truly all about the stats, they'd fire the players after the analytics guys rated everybody, plugged it all into a computer and just run simulations. Sometimes the "eye test" is just as valid. And sorry for not specifying more than just bare WR numbers, but this WR group is the crappiest I have seen (by the "eye test" and watching them play weekly) in my 40+ years of rooting for this team. I appreciate the numbers you give, but there is more to it than just numbers. It's the "intangibles" that all those talking heads like to yammer on about during the combine. Keep on with the numbers. I do like to see them. Just don't discount gut feeling and opinion based on observation, though.
Apples to apples?? We were discussing The worst BROWNS wide receiver group of all time and all of a sudden you are comparing them to the current Packers and Bears...You make changes to the argument at every turn and claim victory. You are the biggest antagonist on these boards and you don't back up much of it, rather you change arguments several times to make it look like you are getting one over on people. I don't disagree the Bears have TERRIBLE WRs also... The Browns, are after all #22 in passing, while the Bears are #32...SO, you lose...Their team as a whole in the passing game is indescribably bad, we should all feel lucky, in this one single aspect...Other than the fact they have a running game to hang their hat on and we do not...They are #6 in rushing and we are the same stagnant #23... I mean if we are going to other teams now, as I had stated the worst BROWNS wide receivers... Let's look at the Kizer vs Trubisky if that's the route you want to go. Everyone stating that if a QB isn't taken in the first couple of picks the Browns are tanking on trying to get one... Currently: Kizer 164.3 yards per game, 52.1% completion Trubisky 128 yards per game, 47.5% completion So, is it fair to say the Browns would have been better off taking Trubisky #1 overall instead of Myles Garrett, who has missed most of the year with injuries anyway? THIS is my whole point...Screaming for a QB just because we don't have one is not necessarily going to fix our problem. There is absolutely no science that will tell you which QB will become a stellar starter at the next level...there also is no scientific proof that a guy that performs as bad as Kizer as a rookie, will not become a good QB in the future...just see Peyton Manning. Not giving players and coaches an opportunity to grow with each other IS THE RECIPE FOR DISASTER and is the same recipe we keep cooking up every other year. The receiving corp, as bad as they are producing now, still has an opportunity to become better in the future. I wouldn't give up on all 6 of them either. I think we are all arguing out of frustration and the negativity just keeps feeding all the fire...but by all means continue on. I'm sure I will as well...
