Almost A Complete Team Failure

No argument that they structured it back loaded. That was because they were cap strapped as it was and we praised Ozzie/DeCosta/Moriarty then for being able to "make it work". Joe has since restructured once moving the the deal to 2021. When they made that deal Joe had shown consistent development in one for or another. His recent decline however, makes it seem less brilliant and more crazy. Joe now appears to many as just what they thought of him - a one year wonder who is now overpaid. Part of that is the OC situation and his consistency from year to year stinks. The only time since Cam departed he had the offense under control was under Kubiak. What's frustrating is that he seems to have what it takes to play at an elite level, but mentally gives his control away to the OCs lame play calling.

Joe is proving to NOT be worth the contract. IDK if that even resonates with him or not. IDK if he is playing hurt. IDK if he just played out of his mind one year and that is all he had. He could just be a glorified game manager with a cannon and no way to use it consistently. However, we can all agree that he hasn't shown much game management skills as of late either.

 

Lots of teams were cap strapped and they didn't write contracts like that. It's not an excuse. There were other ways to save money. They are the only team in the league writing contracts like that and it wasn't the first.

No he signed an extension with the highest signing bonus in the history of the NFL. And he certainly wasn't acsending when he signed that deal just 18 months ago - all because of the structure of the first deal that simply wasn't necessary. Gross negligence by anyone who signed off on that deal.

 

What "other ways"? Back in 2013 the Ravens F.O. was universally lauded for it's management. Right or wrong they were running on a crest of success. I really doubt you can do a postmortem on that to see what the "right" moves actually were. At that time Joe was in a unique position and since the NFL is a "what have you done for me lately" culture, there was no arguing with what they offered Joe at the time. I don't think they had too many REAL options there and back loading the deal made sense for keeping the team together. If Joe was ascending right now the point would be moot. Success under that model was contingent upon that. Since he isn't for whatever reason, Ravens fans are starting to see the entire house of card crashing down. The deal is now so back loaded that even if they wanted to dump Joe it would kill the team for half a decade. Their only option would be to trade him, but he's reaching Cutler like levels so that's a no go.

It was a new contract. They did it to lessen the impact of the salary impact in the first deal. The Ravens would have been saddled with a $28.55 million cap charge on Flacco in 2016, which would have risen to $31.15 million in 2017. That number was the 3rd-highest in football and 2nd among quarterbacks. That new deal saved Baltimore around $6 million that season and over $13 million in the following two.

The crux of the matter is Joe's play. in 2012-13 he looked the part. He's been up and down with more downs it seems ever since.

 

By Ravens fans.

2013 - Jacoby Jones was a luxury. Never a big part of the offense. If they cut him that's 3M. Avoid the window shopping for guys like Marcus Spears and Michael Huff and there is another 2M for guys that contributed nothing. Take 5M off the last 3 years and Joe's cap number (on the original deal) drops by 1.8M in '16, '17, '18.

2014 - Prioritize cap health over signing a guy coming off a broken hip and save 3.2M on a guy that played 3 games. And for the love of god don't guarantee his 4M 2nd year base salary in 2015. More window shopping... Darian Stewart, Jeremy Zuttah. Re-signed Eugene Monroe. What did any of those moves do for the Ravens? That's another 7M in cap space, plus 1M for Jacoby (again) and the dead money from the Huff contract. Take 9.5M off the last 3 years and Joe's cap number drops by another 3.2M in '16, '17, '18.

2015 - More window shopping... Kendrick Lewis, Kyle Arrington, Jason Babin. None produced anthing positive for the Ravens. Another 3M plus the dead money for the finally departed Jacoby Jones and the 4M you now don't have to pay Pitta and there's another 3.3M off the final three seasons.

So now Joe's cap numbers in 2016-2018 have become a very manageable 20M, 23M, 16M. So no need to throw another 44M in guaranteed money (much more when you consider functional guarantees) prior to the end of his original deal.

This is why I rarely get in cap conversations with you. You don't have even a basic understanding. Joe Flacco will trigger the same amount of dead cap whether he is "dumped" or "traded". And as painful as it may be it would only impact them in the year released him if it's prior to June 1st. He would then be off the books completely the following season. So I'm not sure how you get to "half a decade".

Specifically, if the Ravens decided in March they were pulling the plug Joe would count 28.75M against the salary cap. That is only 4M more than he is currently scheduled to count against the cap (24.75M). And then in 2019 he would count $0. They would be out from under the deal after just one season - not half a decade.
A little less painful option... If they chose to designate him a June 1st cut in March he would count the full 28.75M until that date. And then on June 2nd, 2018 his cap number would be reduced to 12.75M for the remainder of the season and then 16M against the 2019 cap. And then $0 the following year. So two years of pain at more manageable numbers.

The new deal didn't save them anything. All they did was dig a deeper hole with the highest signing bonus in the history of football and raising their dead money total for Flacco from 25.85M to 69.85M (also an NFL record that still stands today).

The crux in the matter is poor decision making.

 

I'm fairly confident Ravens fans weren't the only ones saying it was good they signed the reigning superbowl mvp.

This is some hindsight. Considering they one the superbowl on the back of Joe throwing to Boldin, Torrey, Jacoby, and Pitta......and considering Boldin was traded and Pitta broke his hip, you're saying that back in the offseason/preseason of 2013, Jacoby was no more than a luxury? Spears I can agree with, but not Huff. Huff is hindsight considering the team just lost both starting safeties and only really had a rookie who was (thought to be) worth starting. The bigger mistake this offseason was giving Ray Rice the contract. That's hindsight to most people, but I think I was one of two fans who never wanted to overpay him back then

Hindsight again. Huff failed, they needed another safety. Monroe played fairly well in 2013, so re-signing him was a given that even you agreed they had to do back then. 2013 featured some horrible center play, a new center was also a need. Now if the argument is that they shouldn't have gotten Zuttah, then I'm not sure who else was available that would have been cheaper. I hated every part of Pitta's contract so I agree with that. Like Rice, there weren't many Ravens fans that were against this. I hated the concept of paying a guy for a good half of a season

More hindsight. You have the luxury of looking back and saying "they shouldn't have made these moves". We all do. But many of these moves were logical moves at the time.

I'm fairly certain someone could look at every team in the NFL and point out how they could have saved money by not signing or re-signing some players who didn't pan out. For this type of exercise, you'd have to point out how many moves looked like bad decisions when they happened. Monroe, Zuttah, not cutting Jacoby in 2013, etc did not look like bad moves. Giving Pitta the big contract will always be viewed as being too loyal and stupid to me, just as it was in 2014. Same with Rice.

 

Not going to quote it all but many of those things are not hindsight. I called the contract structure idiotic the minute I saw it and I gave alternatives to structuring it that way including the release of Jacoby. As for the players they went out and attained... Had they structured Joe's contract responsibly they wouldn't have even had the option of pissing away that money. So yes, it's hindsight to say those players didn't give you value for your money it would have been a moot point had they structured the contract the way the rest of the NFL does. I'm also pretty sure at some point I called the Pitta contract a huge risk and if memory serves me well I don't think you were a fan either.

 

Went back to see if I could find some reaction to the Pitta signing but we were just getting started on MNC and it appears it preceded the Ravens forum. But I did find this comment which is pretty ironic now...

Don't get me wrong, when you said it I would have completely agreed with you but it kind of sums up the last 4+ seasons for Joe. They finally drafted Stanley last year but they have never surrounded him with WR talent and have done little to give him a good o-line.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with your assessment of the contract. I just think saying they shouldn't have signed those players is a pure hindsight thing since they were all at positions of need. With Jacoby, they'd already lost half of Joe's favorite targets (not counting Rice) so to cut another one, at the time, wouldn't have seemed smart. And yes, I definitely wasn't a fan of Pitta's contract. I think it was myself and Kid that hated it the most within the fanbase.

 

Man, I was so wrong with that statement. I'll give them the credit for the LT attempts. They thought Monroe would pan out, and when he didn't they immediately got Stanley. But my god I'm incredibly wrong about the WRs

2013 - Jacoby Jones, Torrey Smith, and Marlon Brown were the top 3 WRs
2014 - Marlon Brown/Kamar Aiken were the #3 and #4
2015 - Kamar Aiken was the #2, #1 when when Smith went down and I actually don't remember who was #3
2016 - Old man Smith, Wallace........bums
2017 - Wallace, injury prone Maclin, and Bums.

The Ravens have invested literally 1 draft pick higher than a 4th rounder on a WR since Joe signed that first deal, and it took 3 damn years for that. It's been said before, but of the last 17 picks in the first two days, only 4 have gone to the offense and only one of them was an o-lineman and 1 a WR. I'm legitimately flabbergasted by this.

 

This is what I've been saying too. They've tried to make due with an elite QBs salary by giving him players which they expect him to make better. Manning, Brady, Brees all had money-balled receiver stables - any combo of a good vet or two at reasonable contracts, and a bunch of cost effective situational players that can be replaced cheaply. The teams replied on their QB's excellence to make them play better. Same for the Ravens, but the debate as to whether it was bad choiced by the FO, subpar play by Flacco or both is the issue.

Further, not being able to identify an immediate WR rookie stud in 20 years is an issue as well. Some of that is their success in not getting early draft picks to get an elite candidate and also their seemingly formulaic approach which they seem loathe to waiver from. No matter how much research you put into that there is an element of instincts that also play into those decisions. There is a reason Ozzie is gun shy in selecting receivers.

The bolded part to me seems the flaw in their thinking. They've done extremely well finding defensive talent 4th rd to undrafted free agents yet continue to pick defense in the higher rounds. Why NOT use that for the best skill talent instead since that is your weakness? Then again, there have been good to great receivers drafted there too - AB, Stephon Diggs, Tyreek Hill, Matavius Bryant, Stills, and JJ Nelson. They're certainly harder to identify so why not dedicate higher picks to offense. We can also say the same too about OL talent as well since Joe apparently needs more time in the pocket to be effective no matter who we have catching the ball.

 

As much as Ozzie deserves some of the blame, actually a lot of the blame, you have to also point a finger at the scouts they have working for them.

Ozzie's infatuation for anyone from Alabama has got to end

 

How about that dean pees rant? Shame he's been saying the exact same thing about giving up big plays since Peyton whipped them for 7TDs 4 years ago.

 

Can't really hate on the Alabama infatuation right now with how Humphrey is playing. And if we had a competent DC, Tim Williams could have 3+ sacks right now at least

 

I pray he's fired on the bye week at worst. Just let Frazier have the defense and Roman the offense. And if some improvement isn't obvious by seasons end, find new coordinators and a new HC. I saw new HC because if nothing changes with new coordinators again, then it'd clearly be John that was/is the problem

 

Given what Biscotti said the other day publicly, there likely won't be any firings this year on any level, regardless of how it goes. He basically gave Harbaugh/Newsome and Co. a mulligan given all the injuries and offensive struggles. So I think the fan base needs to adjust their expectations for the team for the remainder of this season and possibly next if no major changes are made this offseason.

 

I've never "expected" the Ravens to fire anyone, but that doesn't mean we can't still hope. Cameron and Trestmam were both surprise when they happened, but many hoped for both. I expect all coaches to be here week 1 of 2018, but I can still hope they all are not

 

We might as well make this the official post game thread of the 2017 season.

Hate to say it, but a firing will light a fire under the asses of whoever is left on staff. This FO is too comfortable. Even the players that have dropped passes or missed tackles can be blamed of the same. Many could point out the inordinately high amount of injuries as the cause, and this is certainly the issue. But this has been going on year after year since 2013. When was the last time the Ravens wasn't in the top 5 for injured/IR players? And no one has figured this out in 5 seasons?

I'm not sure exactly sure where to place the blame but there is definitely something not right at The Castle. Ozzie put together what seems to be on paper really good roster - sans the OL. Harbaugh has proven to be an intelligent and competitive coach - but not lately. Biscotti has been a decisive owner but seems to be growing wishy-washy. Well you can't fire an owner.

 

Do you really believe this? I've read these kinds of comments for weeks and have yet to comment but you need to wake up and smell the coffee. I think you have a winning roster on the defensive side of the ball, but it's not nearly as loaded as some of you make out. Offensively this team is pure garbage. Stanley and Yanda are the only guys you could call above average and Yanda is 33 years old at one of the most physically demanding postions on the football field. Ozzie has done as bad a job as anyone in the NFL at building the roster on the offensive side of the ball.

Defensively it's much better but there are holes at ILB and D-line - where I questioned the depth in the preseason and everyone crowed about how deep they were because there were some household names. The secondary is certainly good enough to win football games but I questioned how a team that played so much Cover-2 last year could use Jefferson correctly. He's not going to hurt you but he earned his payday playing in the box.

Ozzie deserves some criticism. Doesn't mean he can't turn it around but he needs to start nailing some of these drafts. The Ravens record post-Super Bowl is a reflection of the talent level and the quick fixes that Ozzie used to be able to hang his hat on not working out.

 

What are you disagreeing with? Seems to parroting pretty much what we has said plus the little barb and highlighting the obvious about the defense. Do you just post to see your thoughts?

 

I"m disagreeing with the notion that Ozzie has put together a really good roster. He hasn't done that for years.