This defense is 17th in pass defense and 6th in run defense. After six weeks. After changing systems and schemes in the offseason. Last season they were 21st and 31st, respectively. That's a jump of 4 and 25 spots. With a roster that you are saying is the worst in professional sports.
That's surprising to me with the level of play that I've watched. Watcha got for offensive stat rankings?
23rd in passing offense and 21st in rushing offense. The killer for the defense is we're 31st in passing offense points allowed (12th in rushing offense points allowed). Overall, points for is 31st in the NFL and defense points allowed is 27th. Point differential is -63. It was -188 in 2016.
The Browns are last in the league at a -9 TO margin, which has allowed teams significantly shorter fields. Sure, if you're just looking at yardage, the Browns's defense doesn't look bad. But the Browns have given up the most passing touchdowns in the NFL, and are about average in rushing touchdowns allowed. Stats are so often an incomplete and irresponsible look at the game. SAS could've made a complete argument, using stats, but that's not his bag. It's hard to get a true feel for the Browns' defense, because their offense hasn't done them any favors. If the offense can limit turnovers, they'll get a more accurate representation of what their defense can actually do. At this point, the defense doesn't look good, but they haven't been put in the best of positions.
Hey, I spoke too soon - when prompted, SAS starts to give a more accurate look at what's really going on. That's on me. Maybe there's something redeemable there, still.
When you "blow it up" the way this team did, down to the foundation...1-21 doesn't prove shit. All it proves is that when you start over completely, building strictly through the draft, the continuity of the league is taken out of the equation. Now, if after 3 seasons you are playoff contenders in that 4th season, THEN you are proven wrong. There IS a plan, the problem is in this day and age the fanbase is so large that the mob won't stand for the process. If we could suffer 3 years with the expectation of 20+ years of success, would you stay quiet and allow it to happen? Especially considering we are in year 19 of the 2 year process and start over OBVIOUSLY PROVING THAT IS NOT WORKING. I really don't understand what everyone doesn't understand...Consistency is the only true model of winning in the NFL. Without it you might get lucky and have a winning season here or there, but you are destined to be mediocre at the very best. The only teams in this league that have consistent success are those that suffered in the beginning to bring about consistency within the organization. I honestly, and I am suffering with every loss, would rather sit through a 0 win season with the hopes that playoffs are a short 1 season and 10 games away, than blow it up knowing that at best we might catch lightening in a bottle for a single season then suffer more 3-7 win seasons in between.
Here's a question for you, Irishdawg (and please note that, in general, I agree with the idea of consistency): What has this front office done to give you confidence that their plan is a winning one? First and foremost, I don't believe that a front office has to blow things up, when they come in. As both a fan of Chicago and Cleveland, I've watched new staff after new staff come in and wreck shop, because they believe in their vision. Problem is, they always manage to throw the good water out with the bad, and have the fill the tub up again in its entirety. Of course, they get halfway done and are fired again... A competent front office doesn't believe that everything has to be scrapped, and you have to build from the ground up for five years. Is that a plan that's likely to succeed, if you have your shit together? Sure. But losing for five seasons isn't really an acceptable plan, either. With that said, if this front office doesn't have their shit together, then leaving them in place for longer doesn't help at all. I don't see a reason to have confidence in them. Their metrics approach hasn't shown to work, and if you argue that they've acquired a ton of draft picks for capital, well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that that's a big help... as long as you pick the right players. And in that effort, they haven't shown much promise. Granted, it's early, so that judgment should be saved. Ultimately, I believe in giving a front office 3 years to prove themselves, unless they prove disastrously incompetent in that time (which is very often the case). My question for Browns fans is: which is it? Does the Browns' front office deserve more time, or have they proven inept, yet? I believe it's the latter, but wouldn't condemn someone arguing for the former.
Blah blah blah w Mr stats.....do you watch the games? Do you see how many guys are committed to the box? Do you see when a team runs PA that the LBs are trailing the TEs and WRs cause their coming down hill every snap.....I can come in and be good against the run if I wanted to and put 11 guys w/in 5 yds of the LOS....does that make my defense sound? Vice versa, I can be #1 in pass defense w a 3 man rush and drop 8 so teams run at me all game....this defense is horrendous w scheme and now I see why Williams doesnt hold a job for long.....watching the game is so much easier than trying to convince people about this stat or that stat....Ricardo Louis has the same amount of catches as Amari Cooper...is Louis just as good as Cooper?
Nothing, we are 6 games into a complete tearing apart rebuild. I don't care what is going on right now, I want consistency just to see if it will work. I'll be honest with you, they could be the worst front office to ever be assembled...but over 19 years of football since the return they have tried 9 different Head coaches and have had 8 different personnel heads (6 GMs, 1 Coach/GM and 1 Exec VP of football operations)...In 19 years, that averages out to 2.04 years per HC and 2.3 years per personnel head. I contend YOU HAVE NO WAY TO KNOW in two years whether something is going to work or not, especially when you have a tear down to the extent this regime has torn down the roster. Whether you believe in it or not isn't the question. As I stated, we have had 8 different regimes and 8 times they have blown things up to different extents. No new regime wants the burden of a failed front office, it's just human nature. The problem is, with new regime come new coaches and different types of players needed. So, in most cases, you DO need to blow up the roster to a certain extent based on roster needs. Again, my contention is that a regime cannot be graded after two years, to me that is impossible. In theory, that is correct. If they are total miscreants then moving on sooner would seem to be the better option...however, each and every one in that front office has been exceptionally successful at every other endeavor of their careers. So would it make more sense to tell them that their 5 year plan failed after a year and 6 games, or would it make more sense to see the 5 year plan out that you signed up for? After all, day one in the press conference, they told us it was a long term plan and would most likely take 4 to 5 years to see a Super Bowl run. They didn't say by next year we expect to win 9 games, or any clue as to any expectation in year 1 or 2...what they said is they expected to be competing for Super Bowls in 4 to 5 years. I have suffered through 16 bad seasons out of 18, I don't see the end in sight if we blow it up again. What I do know is this was a 5 year plan and I am willing to suffer through another season-season and a half if it means a consistently winning franchise moving forward. I KNOW what blowing it up every two years looks like, what we haven't tried in these 18+seasons is sticking to a plan through it's entirety. If Haslem gave them 3 years, then I would agree with you. But, I personally don't believe they sat down and showed Haslem their 5 year plan and he said, I love the plan you are hired and you have 3 years to complete the 5 year plan. If they said don't expect much year one, but by year two we fully expect to be division contenders, by year three we fully expect to be in the playoffs, year four we expect to be the Division Champion, by year 5 we expect to be Super Bowl Champions....then yes, they are behind schedule and failing. I don't think anyone expected to win 1 out of 21 tries...don't get me wrong. But what was said in the beginning was they have a plan in place and expect to be challenging for Super Bowls in 4-5 years....we are only 1 year and 6 games into that plan. THIS BROWNS FAN says they deserve more time.. A) because we signed up for a 5 year plan and I want to see it to the end and B) the alternative has proven us wrong 7 times already in an 17 year span.
Exactly....blowing it up means getting a new FO and coaching staff....that doesnt mean you cut all 53 players and get a whole new team...like bass said what has this front office done to give you hope? You want to wait another yr or 2 and then blow it up and get even further behind the ball....have you seen improvement in this team? I see a terrible HC that makes so many wrong in game decisions whether its a challenge, going for it on 4th down, game plan, etc that he will never be considered for another HC job in the future...that should tell you all you need to know
STEP 1C: It's the law firm of Peyton & Payton. Sean Payton is a free agent coach after this season and has been rumored to be on the outs in New Orleans for some time. They're currently sitting at 3-2 right now, but have been stuck in neutral-to-bad for the past few seasons. After watching 2017 play out and witnessing the hot garbage fire that is Hue Jackson as a head coach, Peyton Manning decides to give Sean Payton the $10 million a year offer and see if it sticks. Sean Payton is a proven commodity when it comes to quarterbacks. With the organization setting up to take their quarterback of the future in the 2018 NFL Draft, I'd much rather have one of the greatest QBs to ever play the position and one of the most QB-friendly coaches in the league making the call on who the pick is versus Hue "Trust Me/Lights Out" Jackson and Sashi "Picks > Players" Brown. Here's the added bonuses of bringing in Sean Patyon: Familiarity with Gregg Williams. Williams' defense elevated the Saints the year they won a Super Bowl. Williams and Payton coached for three years together in New Orleans when their team went a combined 37-11 with three post season appearances. Payton and Williams were both hit hard by the League for the bounty scandal, so both could have an extra chip on their shoulders. Legitimate QB development. Drew Brees is a Hall of Famer, but when he went to New Orleans after being cut by the Chargers, he was struggling to find a job. Sean Patyon, the newly-hired head coach, took a chance on him and since then, Brees has thrown over 55,000 yards and 395 touchdown, earning a QB rating of 99.4 over that stretch. Tony Romo credits Sean Payton more than any one else with his development in Dallas, who went on to post the fourth-best QB rating of all time over his career. In Cleveland, he would be tasked with the development of the QB taken in the 2018 NFL Draft, as well as any hold-overs from previous drafts - Kizer, Hogan, Kessler. If he could make an undrafted rookie from a FCS school and a short, second-round pick into two of the best QBs in this generation, imagine what he could do with the No. 1 overall pick and/or some of our existing talent. Potential for Drew Brees as the veteran mentor. Now, Brees may not want to spend his golden years in Cleveland tossing touchdowns to a re-building roster, but it also might not be up to him. Brees has an opt-out in his contract in 2018, meaning if Payton leaves he can too. If Payton takes the money here, the Haslams could open their wallets and make Drew Brees highly paid to finish his career here as the mentor, bridge-QB who also immediately makes this offense a contender. In his time in New Orleans, Drew Brees made the following guys 1,000+ yard receivers: Brandon Cooks, Michael Thomas, Willie Snead, Kenny Stills, Marques Colston, Lance Moore, Devery Henderson. Been There, Done That. Payton took over a 3-13 Saints team where Aaron Brooks threw for 2,800 yards on a seaosn, Antowain Smith was leading rusher with 659 yards, and the leading receiver was Donte' Stallworth bringing in 945 yards. They went 10-6 in Payton's first season and posted over 4,600 passing yards, over 1,000 rushing yards out of their RB, and a wide receiver over 1,000 yards. Current Roster Alignment. Part of any deal will be not turning over the roster extensively because that sets everything back. But thinking of the Saints' hay-day, the following players line up pretty well with those Saints guys. Jimmy Graham - David Njoku Marques Colston - Kenny Britt Stallworth/Henderson/Cooks - Corey Coleman Darren Sproles - Duke Johnson Jr. The law firm of Peyton & Payton - taking the NFL to court.
I like everything you posted but strongly disagree with #5 (Current Roster Alignment). The SB Saints personnel is(was) much better than the current Browns players you listed.
Blah blah blah...If you didn't have Juniors and Seniors to run your offense, your school would SUCK every year as well... You don't implement a system and expect great things year one. If you truly understand football, that is something you should understand completely. I don't care if you want to call me "Mr. Excuse" for the rest of your days on this board...If is common sense and I really don't understand the argument against it. Do I agree with the defensive scheme? No, personally I do not, but it doesn't make it wrong, because I work in the transportation industry not the National Football League as a defensive coach. Can it work? No one knows yet because a) they don't have all the players needed to run it yet and b) they are still learning how to run it themselves. Williams hasn't held jobs long because: 1) regime change 2) scandal He was with the Oilers/Titans for 10 years, he became a HC because of his success there... The Bills gave him 3 years to build a winning team, he had a 3 win season, a 8 win season and a 6 win season...which by the way they averaged 6.6 wins per season since he left, so he was about an average HC in the Bills organization. Since then, he spent 4 years as Redskins DC until Gibbs was fired and Williams moved on to a flailing Jaguars team in 2008, I don't know why he moved on to the Saints other than articles stating Sean Payton recruited him heavily. He was with the Saints for 3 seasons before bountygate...he was suspended by the league so his year with the Rams doesn't even count since he never coached a day there. After serving 3 years as the Rams DC, Jeff Fisher was fired along with his entire staff and he was hired as Cleveland DC less than a month later. So, I don't see a history of his failing to put a competitive defense on the field as a reason for his career changes. You just write things down without even researching or knowing a history...maybe you should stop doing that..
I don't disagree they were much better overall roster - they won 13 games and a Super Bowl. This is a Browns team that's won 1 game out of their last 22. But that's not what I said. Here's their Super Bowl lineup skill positions: RB: Pierre Thomas WR: Marques Colston, Devery Henderson TE: Jeremy Shockey KR/PR: Reggie Bush Thomas never rushed for more than 800 yards in a season. Marques Colston was a seventh round draft pick from Hofstra - a converted TE to WR in the NFL, no less. Devery Henderson was a disappointing second round pick known for his speed and drops. Jeremy Shockey was in his seventh year (second team) when the Saints went to a Super Bowl. That season, he produced fewer than 600 receiving yards and 3 touchdowns. Reggie Bush was a great athlete who wasn't much of a football player. Jabrill Peppers is, stop me if you've heard this, a great athlete who's not much of a football player.
Because history shows us that is what happens when a front office and coaching staff are blown up...THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU BLOW IT UP...maybe putting it in caps will help you understand how it works. If you enter a job as a manager and the company has a two year history of failure in sales, the new owner tells you you have 5 years to turn around the company and then proceeds to tell you about the job performance of the staff. Do you bring in your own people that you have studied consistently or keep the failed staff and hope they change their ways? As for Hue Jackson, we aren't getting a HC, we are getting a strung out offensive coordinator that doesn't have enough time in a day to do everything he needs to do to be a HC. For that he is failing this team miserably. Not having more than a single time out in the second or fourth quarters of most games tells me he is unprepared for game day and cannot keep up. Someone needs to step in and take some power away. I don't know how his contract is written, but he cannot continue down this path. If he does, then I agree with relieving him of his duties. In that sense, I believe you can stay with the 5 year plan by promoting within. The staff would be well aware of why Hue was let go and hopefully learn from that mistake...my hope is Hue learns and delegates better moving forward, I just don't think he has it in him to hand over offensive duties. I do think he would make a good head coach if he concentrated on being a HC and not a OC....OR simply being an OC if that is his passion and stop pretending he wants to be a HC.
