All I really have to say regarding this topic is this... Whatever happened to teaching our children to take PRIDE in THEIR country and the Freedoms and privileges it provides? I get that there are a great many social injustices in our great nation, yet even when I myself threatened to protest such things I was REMINDED by my Mother that regardless of my own personal views that I (if called to service) WOULD answer the call of my country and I would forever respect and honor such freedoms and rights by doing so. To this day I stand for the National Anthem and actively participate in the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance.
I think you guys are missing the point. Millions of people are speaking out against police brutality. But they are largely ineffective. Right or wrong NFL players are looking at how they can draw the most attention to their message. It's not about being disrespectful of veterans and what the flag stands for. It's about how they can bring the most attention to their cause. We can all disagree with their methods but I don't think we can disagree on how effective it's been. They've captured the attention of the nation.
Some are . . . Some aren't. But the victims are still dead. You want to continue talking about the end result of the underlying problem. Go right ahead. I will not debate with you over something that is not debatable.
Their method, however, IS disrespectful of veterans and what our country's flag stands for. If they want to draw attention to the social problems in this country, they are more than welcome to do just that. My problem is the specific moment that they chose to do it - and - the apparent willingness of tbe NFL to allow them to disrespect this country on "company time".
I have no issue. I think that firing someone for not standing during National Anthem speaks to forced patriotism, and that is a dangerous thing. Once we instill forced patriotism, lets get to forced religion, and continue down that road and see how great this country becomes. Lym, you can say that this act "IS disrespectful of veterans" but I know several veterans who have no issue with it and even have made reference to that being the reason they enlisted. As far as what the flag stands for that's sort of a joke, this country was built on slave labor and genocide and that is what the flag represents. We just lucked out that our families decided to up and move from whatever country and procreate in the US.
Actually, I think the players are. We were talking about the issues before Kaepernick. I don't think the issues have picked up more air time because of Kaepernick. Quite frankly the more players that do this, the less the real issue gets talked about in favor of talking about not standing for the National Anthem.
The overwhelming majority are not punished. This is the problem and it's just a tad deeper (dead people) than a bunch of veterans getting their feelings hurt.
Okay but you're only speaking from your point of view and as I stated in my last post you're literally putting your feeling of being "disrespected" ahead of people trying to bring attention to cops murdering black people without consequence. Personally I can deal with a little disrespect if it saves even one life.
Oh yeah? Tim archives everything. Find me all the threads about blacks being killed by police officers before Kaepernick took a knee.
It could be argued that a lack of respect is the reason why these issues go so long without any real change being implemented. I believe most people would be willing to tolerate some degree of rounding the corners to protect life, but having respect for one's elders, respect for the authorities, respect for teachers, respect for neighbors, respect for personal property and respect for one's beliefs would go a long way towards keeping people out of situations where they could end up on the wrong end of violence. I personally believe that respect is being lost on the majority of our kids and being replaced with an attitude of 'do whatever the hell you want no matter how it affects others'. Community is lost in an age where people are more worried about their facebook lives than their real ones. Sorry for the mini rant, but I see disrespect happening everywhere and it has become the norm.
p.s. This entire conversation is rooted in the notion that service members have a greater hold on our country's flag than the rest of us which I have a hard time with. But I'm not sure I want to debate it.
I don't know what the exact numbers would be, but just one life lost over an overzealous use of a weapon by an officer is too many. I just posted this in another thread - When Kaep took a knee for the first time the league should have openly addressed the situation and took steps to work on the issue. They could have asked Colin to stand for the anthem and in exchange the NFL could have offered to help with his cause in a public manner that would have given it greater exposure and a positive platform. This would have shown that the league respects the players concerns and the concerns of a large portion of the black community while respecting the beliefs of the fans and ownership who feel that patriotism has a place in the league. This is still something that the league could do to turn a dividing issue into a common cause with some common goals. Everyone should have a vested interest in making our country safe and with equal opportunity for all.
Holy sh*t! Can't believe this isn't a thread about quarterbacks Can't believe I agree so freakin' much with Mr. Peachbum on something (anything) Can't wait to get some more thoughts out there... busy morning but I'll try to post some more soon
I really can't disagree with any of that and it's the side I fell on in this discussion until I watched as police officer after police officer walk after killing an unarmed man. Respect is certainly something this country could use some more of but the punishment can't be death and if it is then there is another thing we need to work on and that's called accountability. Because if we don't hold people accountable it won't change.
I believe respect and accountability go hand in hand. Without personal accountability you cannot demonstrate respect. Without respecting the rules in place you cannot enforce accountability.
And I thank you very much for that service. But I can be appreciative of your service and also believe those that kneel during the anthem have the right to do so. And I believe they can be appreciative of your service and still do so. I just don't see those things as mutually exclusive.
You could also say that this is exactly what our service members fought and died for, whether anyone agrees with the timing/subject matter or not. Whether or not it is an organized march or kneeling during the anthem is irrelevant. Protesting isn't always a matter of convenience for everybody. When a group has the spotlight, there is no better time to get a stronger message across. And the NFL is apparently fine with it because they either don't want to piss off the minority players and fans and look the azz-hole or they agree with the message or their employees right to do so even at this time of the game. I like many of you don't care for it during the anthem, but that's my problem to deal with. But really isn't that what our service members died protecting? I understand why they protest and that is their right. Being a white male, I can sympathize but I will never fully understand or grasp what minorities have to endure in life. I may not agree with all protests and the forms they take, but I can't be mad for the when and why of this or anything else. At this time, you just can't pick and choose who gets to protest and when. Whether it's worthy subjects like this or the opposite with white supremacists in Virginia or the Westboro Baptists who show up at military funerals with "it was caused by the gays" signs. Until my previous two examples are officially labeled hate groups by whichever gov't department and thus lose these rights, they have those rights to protest too unfortunately.
And this conversation goes full circle. As I clearly stated in my original post, these players have every right to protest. My problem is when they chose the moment to protest and the fact that the NFL has chosen to do NOTHING about it. The NFL has no problem glorifying service members or the flag in pre-game ceremonies but falls far short of reminding those players why they have that right. Perhaps I can clarify my position. My beef isn't with the players. Its with the NFL. Let me ask you a question. What would you do if servers in your restaurant refused to serve servicemen or police officers as a form of protest? And what impact (if any) would that have on the rest of your clientele if you did nothing?
