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Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

I want them to take the best player no matter where they pick as well, but have you studied his game film TD? If that is the best this draft has to offer, then so be it, but it doesn't bode well for the health of the draft if he is the best...And there is no way he is a once in a decade talent..That's all I'm saying.

As I've stated, I haven't jumped into much game film yet, there may not be anyone better, but it is disheartening if he is the best.

Time to become relevant again in Cleveland...HERE WE GO BROWNIES, HERE WE GO, WOOF WOOF!!!

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Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

top dawg wrote:

lol!  Oh boy.  Here we go already...

If we stay at #1, I believe we should take Garrett.  All I want is for the Browns to take the best football player on the board, and I want them to stick with that plan throughout all 18 selections, or whatever the hell they accumulated, except for maybe one....Use the Philly pick to get the QB prospect.  Might have to reach a little, but it's necessary.  We have to take a shot....Trubisky, Watson, Kizer, whoever, I believe we must come out with one of the top rated prospects, especially if we finish our run to tie Detroit for worst record ever. It's not gonna fly if we have to "trust" Hue on another mid-round head scratcher.....But After round one, for God sakes forget position, WE NEED EVERYTHING!  Just take the best player regardless...

On another note, QB, it's possible that Eagles pick could end up being another top 7-10 pick overall...if they feel THAT enamored by a QB, they should just take him at #1 or risk losing him to the Eagles pick. I don't see any player in this draft that is a must take at #1 overall. QBs are a premium, so if they are going to take one with the first two picks, it might as well be #1 to make sure they get the one they want...I don't see one worthy of a top ten...if you are not taking one #1 overall, I would say wait until the second round to take a flyer, I see several QBs with similar grades. They have to be sold on one to take one.

FYI, Right now the Eagles are at #11 on the latest draft order list, but they are 5-7 and tied with the Saints(#9) and Chargers(#10).

They play 3 of their last 4 games against their division in which they are 0-3 this season..the 4th game is against Baltimore on the road. The only team that won't be playing for anything is the Cowboys January 1st, the last game of the season. I could very easily see them go into that Cowboys game reeling on a 6 game losing streak(currently on a 3 game skid).

We will have an opportunity to add some talent in 2017, as long as there is talent in the draft to be had.

Time to become relevant again in Cleveland...HERE WE GO BROWNIES, HERE WE GO, WOOF WOOF!!!

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Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

IrishDawg42 wrote:

I just spent my lunch hour watching Clowney...er Garrett's game film.

I just don't see it SAS...

Oh boy.

I know the talking heads have touted this kid as a once in a decade talent, but what exactly are you seeing on film to back that up?

31.0 sacks and 47.0 TFLs in 33 games, for starters.  Dude has been hyper-productive.  I know you get into mutli-sack games a little later, but to give that some flavor...

78.0 plays behind the LOS gives him 2.36 per game. 

  • Khalil Mack (as you listed below) had 103.0 in 50 games, or 2.06 per game.

  • Von Miller (a fellow Aggie) had 83.5 in 47 games, or 1.78 per game.

  • Joey Bosa had 77.0 in 38 games, or 2.03 per game.

  • In J.J. Watt's NFL Defensive Player of the Year season, he had 35.5 in one season, which is 2.22 per game.

Those are just raw numbers.

Using analytic measurements from PFF.com, Garrett becomes even more impressive.  Bosa was graded as the best EDGE players in 2014 and 2015.  Garrett was No. 2 both years.  This year, not only is he the best EDGE player, he's the best defender in the country.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft- … -2017-nfl/

I didn't care for what I saw on film, and despite his declaration of not believing in taking plays off, he does it consistently.

I'd have to see what film you're talking about.  Here's my resource:

http://draftbreakdown.com/players/myles-garrett/

He's had 32.5 career sacks, sounds GREAT on the surface...he has also had 8 career multi sack games, 3 his Freshman year, 3 his Sophomore year and 2 his Junior year...THAT stat doesn't jump out at me...his multi sack games make up 22 of his career 32.5 career sacks... That means 10 other games in which he managed to get 1 sack, or 18 games out of 34 games, or roughly half his games.

Khalil Mack had five out of 50... against Kent State, Miami (OH), Massachusetts, Morgan State, and tOSU.

Von Miller had seven out of 47... against Utah State, New Mexico, Texas Tech, UAB, Colorado, Nebraska, and Texas.

Joey Bosa had five out of 38... against Northwestern, Rutgers, Penn State, Illinois (twice), and Michigan.  And that's when both PSU and Michigan were unranked.

Where is the quality that bumps this kid up to one of the best in a decade, and the best of his position over the past 3 years?

If memory serves, you were on the Wentz Wagon last season and he played hot garbage in the way of "quality" teams.

At the end of the day, 11.0 of his 31.0 sacks came against the SEC - still a talent-rich conference, even if there aren't elite teams in there in 2016, and half (15.0) against "Big 5" conferences.

(edit:) I also don't see the QB pressures you want in a pass rusher, AND maybe worst thing of all, he is RARELY double teamed...and I mean RARE.

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/myles-g … ucla-2016/

Try this one... he has at least seven QB hurries in this game alone.

I am disqualifying him from MY PERSONAL #1 overall draft pick list. There has to be someone better than this to take #1 overall, if not, trade out of that spot if you don't love a QB.

It's extremely rare that you get a player like Garrett who, if eligible, would have been a Top 5 pick in the previous draft class and who is a lock to be a Top 3 pick in his current draft class.

The last time that happened was Jadeveon Clowney, and even zero work ethic, nagging injuries, and lukewarm interviews at the Combine couldn't stop him from going #1 overall. 

To contrast that with Myles, he's lauded for his work ethic, did miss a game this season with an ankle injury, but has been relatively injury free in his career, and while the Combine is a few months away, seems to have a much better demeanor.

Not sure if I'll have time today, but I want to take a look at some more the top guys and get some impressions as we wait until the Jan 16th deadline to declare.

Myles Garrett
Jonathan Allen
Derek Barnett

Those are your top three and any one of those guys would be a massive upgrade to the Cleveland roster.

(edit #2:) Full disclosure, I also was not enamored by Mack when he came out, I was OBVIOUSLY very wrong about that young man.

Same here.  I learned my lesson.  Garrett at #1 without a doubt.

More of a prophet, less of a poster.™  #TeamCody

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Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

top dawg wrote:

Use the Philly pick to get the QB prospect.  Might have to reach a little, but it's necessary.  We have to take a shot....Trubisky, Watson, Kizer, whoever, I believe we must come out with one of the top rated prospects

You had me until this part, TD...

Opinions are very mixed (again) on the QB crop this year.  Just yesterday Kiper said it could be a year with no QB taken in the first round.  That's a bold claim and there's a lot of ground to be made up, but it's worth noting.

For me, I don't see any first round guys after Deshaun Watson but some options in Day 2 (R2 - R3).

In addition, we have four more games to see what we have on the roster.  If (big if, I know) Robert Griffin can stay healthy for four games, we might at the very least have a competent starter. 

This weekend is going to be interesting... in his only other start, the offensive line was atrocious, the receivers dropped six balls (Barnidge dropped three alone), and our defense was asleep for the first 30 minutes of play.

More of a prophet, less of a poster.™  #TeamCody

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Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

I got 10 bucks says the Browns don't select ANY QB with either 1st round pick.

Do not confuse effort with results.

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Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

SAS wrote:

I'd have to see what film you're talking about.  Here's my resource:

http://draftbreakdown.com/players/myles-garrett/

Yep, same source I always use. I watched the Tennessee game first, then decided to start charting the Alabama and UCLA games, UCLA- he gets credit for 1 solo, 2 assist and a sack, but unless they missed a play, he had 1 solo tackle, 1 assist and a sack in that game and NOTHING ELSE. He did a lot of standing around.

Alabama, he gets credit for 3 solo tackles(all TFL), and 4 assists...If you watch the film 2 of the 3 were broken assignments and he was unblocked, anyone with a pair of cleats could have made those behind the line, even though one of them he almost missed the tackle, he managed to grab him by the ankle and save the play. The 3rd tackle for loss was an sweet ass play, he made an incredible spin move to beat his man and get to the ball carrier...as for the assists, I can find two for sure and the other two he gets credit for??? He was standing by the pile on a lot of plays, but...

If you watch every play, you'll see what I saw, a guy who makes his move and if it isn't immediately successful, he is done on the play. He didn't pursue at all, he had a chance at stopping quite a few plays but didn't do a damn thing. He allowed the Tide to score a TD on play where he was within about 4 yards of the QB and didn't even attempt to stop him, he ended up breaking a tackle of another player and scampered for about a 35 yard TD run.

SAS wrote:

31.0 sacks and 47.0 TFLs in 33 games, for starters.  Dude has been hyper-productive.  I know you get into mutli-sack games a little later, but to give that some flavor...

I get the production, but my point was that 80% of that production came against MUCH inferior competition. He had head turning games...until you look at the opponent of those BIG games. They play a SEC schedule and the production wasn't there even close to consistent against the better competition.

SAS wrote:

Try this one... he has at least seven QB hurries in this game alone.

I did watch that one as well...half of those "hurries" had a teammate that beat him to the QB to hurry the QB and many are giving him the credit for the disruption. I think you might have blinders on, expecting greatness.

SAS wrote:

If memory serves, you were on the Wentz Wagon last season and he played hot garbage in the way of "quality" teams.

At the end of the day, 11.0 of his 31.0 sacks came against the SEC - still a talent-rich conference, even if there aren't elite teams in there in 2016, and half (15.0) against "Big 5" conferences.

Not a great memory, well at least you remember about half the tale...or at least only talk about half of it..I hitched my favor to him as the top QB, but I repeatedly mentioned his competition as his biggest deterrent...

When you break that down, it's less than 4 sacks a year when playing the better teams...you know who was better than that??

Jonathan Allen...had 26 career sacks...of which 24 were against big 5 conference teams...also had 41.5 tackles for loss

Personally, watching his film this evening, I think Allen is the better player of the two.

Not to mention, Garrett played 3-4 OLB, 3-4 DE and 4-3 DE in 2016..By FAR his best position and most production came out of the 3-4 DE position, he was dismal at 3-4 OLB, almost no production. What position do you plan on using him with the Browns?


I'll look at Barnett next...If I don't pass out, it's been a long week

Time to become relevant again in Cleveland...HERE WE GO BROWNIES, HERE WE GO, WOOF WOOF!!!

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Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

Lyman wrote:

I got 10 bucks says the Browns don't select ANY QB with either 1st round pick.

I wouldn't have a problem with that...

Time to become relevant again in Cleveland...HERE WE GO BROWNIES, HERE WE GO, WOOF WOOF!!!

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Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

I don't know what to tell ya', Irish.  It sounds like your mind is made up.

Rob Rang:

STRENGTHS: The single most important attribute for pass rushers in today's up-tempo NFL is initial burst. Garrett excels in this area, showing the explosive first step to cross the face of would-be blockers on the perimeter and generating remarkable closing speed, which contributed to his knack for forcing the ball out.
Garrett's rare burst was quantified over the summer by Texas A&M's use of GPS technology, which according to Aggies head coach Kevin Sumlin, tracked Garrett at a remarkable 19-20 miles per hour - times normally associated with wide receivers and defensive backs.

Garrett's initial speed rush is impressive in its own regard, but is the moves he has created to complement this burst that separates him from most college pass rushers. Unlike most edge rushers of his height, Garrett has a flexible core, which allows him to dip, duck and change directions with remarkable fluidity.

The Aggies take full advantage of Garrett's change of direction skills by occasionally sliding him inside to defensive tackle or running tackle-end stunts, allowing the athletic rusher to loop around and wreak havoc against overmatched guards and centers. Garrett has developed a quick inside spin and has learned to use his hands well, featuring classic rip and swim moves along with a surprisingly effective bull rush. Garrett also shows impressive awareness, timing his leaps to knock down passes at the line of scrimmage and sniffing out trick plays.

While Garrett's "strength" lies with his length and athleticism, he is considerably more powerful than his somewhat lanky frame suggests. Garrett comes off the ball low and hard, maintaining his pad level throughout the play. He shows impressive functional strength to extend his arms, lock-out and anchor in the running game, as well as the power to drag down ballcarriers attempting to run past him.

WEAKNESSES: Garrett is almost too quick of his own good, at times, bursting upfield only to leave space behind him for teams to exploit on quick draws and screens. Garrett has shown improved awareness over his career of cut-blocks, but some teams (including Alabama) had some success against him in this area and his long legs leave him slightly vulnerable. Garrett is athletic enough to drop into coverage but looks less comfortable the further he gets from the line of scrimmage.

IN OUR VIEW: Finding true weaknesses for Garrett is tough duty as he's a remarkable talent destined for an early pick if he can remain healthy. The NFL team fortunate enough to draft Garrett will have the luxury of using him as a traditional hand-in-the-dirt defensive end or stand-up rusher. He projects as a 10-plus sack-a-season edge rusher in the NFL and would have almost surely leapt Joey Bosa to be the first non-quarterback selected in 2016, had he been eligible.

Lance Zierlein:

Strengths
It's one thing to look the part and have teams project an increase in production as a player gets more experience and coaching. It is quite another to produce at an elite level on a consistent basis, and that is what Garrett (26.5 career sacks) is able to do. Garrett has the length and thickness of frame to project to a natural defensive end spot. He possesses a shredded physique and is much stronger in his lower body than when he arrived at Texas A&M.

Garrett's burst off the snap sets up his entire portfolio as a pass rusher. Tackles that are slow out of their stance have no chance against Garrett's twitchy upfield charge and corner-turning ability. When tackles overset and try to rush to the edge, Garrett has a devastating spin move that tackles have little-to-no chance of recovering from. Garrett has enough power to fight through redirect blocks and corner the edge at sharp angles. His inside charge is lightning fast and can be extremely disruptive against rushing attacks. Garrett looks to maintain run fits rather than playing "hero ball".

Weaknesses
With any great athlete, sometimes the player can be too reliant upon natural athletic ability and explosion. Garrett has all the tools but needs to get better at stringing moves together and working with a pass-rush plan. Although he hasn't had to rely heavily on his hands as part of his pass-rush attack, he will find that skilled hands will be a necessity at the next level. He stays engaged with blockers longer than you want and can improve the consistency of his reaction time off the snap.

NFL comp: Jevon Kearse

One of the easiest comparisons to make for Garrett is former Texas A&M defensive end Von Miller. Not only do they come from the same college team, but they have similar athletic attributes. Their explosion off the snap and around the edge is what makes them special and so difficult to block. The problem with this comparison is that Garrett (6-foot-5, 270 pounds, per school measurements) is bigger and stronger than Miller (6-3, 250). One friend suggested Garrett would be the result if you put Von Miller and Jadeveon Clowney together.

However, for my comp, I'm going with a blast from the past. Garrett has freaky athleticism, explosiveness and footwork. The guy is a freak, which leads us to a comparable NFL talent in Jevon "The Freak" Kearse. Kearse measured in at the NFL Scouting Combine at 6-4, 262, which happens to be very close to the listed measurements for Garrett. Garrett's strength, initial explosion up the field lateral agility is very similar to Kearse's. Kearse had longer arms and Garrett appears to be a more skilled pass rusher than Kearse was at this same juncture of their college careers, but their playing style and high-end ability make this my preferred comp.

Matt Miller:

From a technique standpoint, his size and speed are a dangerous combination. Garrett, whom scouts measured at 278 pounds this summer, has ideal length on a 6'5" frame and can match his speed with power. And one scout I spoke with thought Garrett could easily gain weight to play at 290 pounds without sacrificing flexibility or power.

Garrett is an athletic marvel, but one of the standout aspects of his game has been his consistent improvement at Texas A&M. Many top-ranked high school players arrive on campus with a spotlight on them and never develop football skills. Garrett has been the opposite, staying off Twitter and instead focusing on refining his talent on the field. In 2016, he is showing a much better bull rush and starting to shake off blockers' hands with his hump move.

As a raw athlete, Garrett can do it all. He’s expected to run in the 4.5-second range at the NFL Scouting Combine (per a scout who saw him running this summer) and jump in the 11-foot range in the broad jump. Those numbers would put Garrett in Clowney’s neighborhood as one of the freakiest athletes of the last decade.

There is no easy NFL comparison for Garrett. Some may go with Kearse or Julius Peppers, but Garrett is bigger than Kearse (6'4") and has a higher motor than Peppers. He’s definitely not former Aggie Von Miller, but that’s the type of impact he could have as a pass-rusher in a scheme that allows him to go after the quarterback consistently.

Link: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2670 … k-prospect

Brent Sobleski:

It's easy to praise Garrett. He's the total package and effective in multiple phases. The defensive end also makes an impact on special teams. He's already blocked both a punt and a kick.

NFL organizations certainly won't be looking for the pass-rusher to play much on special teams, but his ability to affect another phase speaks to his overall talent.

The really scary part is that Garrett has plenty of room to grow.

Link: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2652 … on-clowney

Sports Illustrated:

Were it not for the rule demanding that players be three years removed from high school before entering the NFL draft, Texas A&M might have lost Garrett (6' 5", 262 pounds) after his freshman or sophomore year. He has been an elite pass rusher since Day One. Between his quick get-off, speed and ability to finish, Garrett is the type of playmaker NFL teams dream of having on their defense.

Mel Kiper Jr.:

Garrett suffered a high ankle sprain in late September and has missed two games since, including the blowout win over New Mexico State two weeks ago. In the Aggies' upset loss to Mississippi State over the weekend, he didn't look like himself. The injury has taken away some of the explosion that makes him such a promising talent. This shouldn't affect Garrett's draft status, though, if the injury doesn't linger past January. At 6-foot-5, 265 pounds, he has the length, strength and ability to bend the edge. He's a brilliant, natural pass-rusher who looks like a top-five lock.

*Garrett is No. 1 on Mel's "Big Board".

Draft Wire:

The biggest knock on Garrett during his sophomore campaign was a lack of ideal bulk, which prevented him from being able to anchor consistently against the run. He added some quality weight in the offseason, and it shows on his 2016 film. He’s more effective at setting and keeping the edge against the run, and he’s not as easily neutralized by bigger, more physical blockers. His thicker frame also serves him well as a pass-rusher, giving him an element of power to go with his rare explosiveness off the edge.

Durability has been Garrett’s biggest struggle in 2016, as injuries have held him back and negatively impacted his production. But he’s also shown toughness and a willingness to play through injuries, showing he can still be effective at less than 100 percent.

Garrett is a complete prospect, and the prototypical edge defender NFL teams are desperate for. He can be effective in any scheme, and will make an impact on every down at the next level. If he can stay healthy, he’s talented enough to immediately give NFL offensive tackles trouble.

Even if the team picking at the top of this year’s draft needs a franchise quarterback, Garrett is too good to pass up. He’s easily the best overall player in this class, and should be the No. 1 overall pick, regardless of what team owns the selection.

I could go on and on because he's the consensus top pick in this draft by each and every sports site and analyst.  There's just simply no denying that everyone think he's special.

More of a prophet, less of a poster.™  #TeamCody

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Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

I could go on and on because he's the consensus top pick in this draft by each and every sports site and analyst.  There's just simply no denying that everyone think he's special.

I could have regurgitated all the talking heads...I thought we were actually watching film and describing what WE saw...Oh well.. *SCRATCH*


I don't disagree with his first step, his explosiveness. What I saw on film though is a guy who relies on it constantly and if he doesn't beat the man across from him in that initial step, the play is over for him. In the NFL, he will not win consistently enough for that to work. He will need a LOT of coaching imho if he will ever become something great. It doesn't mean it can't happen...it can happen for a lot of players...

For my money, I see it more consistently ALREADY in the techniques used by Jonathan Allen...

However, you think they will bring in Garrett as a 3-4 OLB pass rusher, right? Allen will not work in that role. Allen, I believe can work multiple spots as a 4-3 DT, 4-3 DE or 3-4 DE. He already possess the hand work needed to succeed at the next level. He also has the strength to work against the linemen at the next level. His speed reminds me of a top 4-3 DE, not a WR, but his reaction is great off the ball. He has nice lateral movement as well.


Look, I'm not saying Garrett isn't a nice athlete...not what I am insinuating at all. But, he is a much different type of player than Allen, imo. Allen SEEKS out contact, he wants to hurt anyone within arms length. Garrett wants to rely on that speed to beat someone as cleanly as possible. That works a lot more at the college level than it does at the next level. He is big and strong, so coaching may be able to change the way he plays, but as of TODAY and the film I have to watch, my bet would be on Allen over Garrett...Now, if they traded down a couple of spots and Allen was gone, I would still take Garrett with his skill set...I haven't seen enough tape to say EXACTLY where he lands in my top ten, but I will be SHOCKED if he isn't in my top 5.



Truth be told, before analysis, I'm not jumping up and down excited about this draft class yet...I am anxious to see exactly who declares and who doesn't.

Time to become relevant again in Cleveland...HERE WE GO BROWNIES, HERE WE GO, WOOF WOOF!!!

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Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

IrishDawg42 wrote:

I could have regurgitated all the talking heads...I thought we were actually watching film and describing what WE saw...Oh well.. *SCRATCH*

Those quotes are just parroting the same things I'm saying about him.  Not only do I not see any "loafing" on the field, but I'm not able to find anyone else who's saying that, either.

For my money, I see it more consistently ALREADY in the techniques used by Jonathan Allen...

Dude, I love Jonathan Allen, too.  I don't disagree with anything you said about his position type and in fact, agree that Allen is a better fit schematically for the Browns.

But I'm taking the position that you - if the Browns do end up at #1 overall - draft the best player available in that situation and I, with pretty much everyone else out there, thinks that's Myles Garrett.

But, he is a much different type of player than Allen, imo. Allen SEEKS out contact, he wants to hurt anyone within arms length. Garrett wants to rely on that speed to beat someone as cleanly as possible.

Isn't that the very nature of the difference between a DE/DT and a DE/OLB?  One's in the trenches routinely and matched up on big guys where brute strength is vital, the other is a more finesse type player who has to use speed, balance, and misdirection to avoid contact and pressure the QB?

He is big and strong, so coaching may be able to change the way he plays, but as of TODAY and the film I have to watch, my bet would be on Allen over Garrett...

That big and strong is what separates Garrett from most of the other EDGE players.  His size allows him to play a variety of positions and he could 100% play down in the DE spot in the NFL because of this strength.

And yeah, so Cleveland runs a 3-4 but we're in our  base defense, what... 30% of the time?

Now, if they traded down a couple of spots and Allen was gone, I would still take Garrett with his skill set...I haven't seen enough tape to say EXACTLY where he lands in my top ten, but I will be SHOCKED if he isn't in my top 5.

I will be shocked if Garrett is available after a trade down scenario unless:

1. He suffers a serious injury between now and April.

2. We trade to #2 overall and #1 is a QB selection.

Truth be told, before analysis, I'm not jumping up and down excited about this draft class yet...I am anxious to see exactly who declares and who doesn't.

Must have been missing a bunch of college football this season.  The QB class is crap, but this is one of the best years I can remember for defensive players and especially pass rushers.  Also, RB and WR looks to be deep and talented.

More of a prophet, less of a poster.™  #TeamCody

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Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

Posted in DPL also, but impacts 2017 offseason as well:

John Greco likely needs Lisfranc surgery too, like his teammate

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 … -teammate/

He’s going to see specialist Dr. Robert Anderson in Charlotte next week, and will likely have surgery then. The rehab could last a year, which could complicate next season as well.

With Greco potentially out all - or most - of 2017 and Bitonio's return uncertain to begin the season, the weakpoint of our offensive line - interior linemen - just got worse/murkier.

More of a prophet, less of a poster.™  #TeamCody

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Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

What's not to like about Garrett or Allen?  Either one is an immediate upgrade and impact player for our defense.  They both pass the eye test.  If we stay at #1, I'd still take Garrett first...You guys were talking about which one fits our scheme better.  Does anyone think our "scheme" might be getting a makeover this offseason?  I know Hue loves Ray Horton, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hue is forced to say goodbye to his buddy at season's end.   The scheme has not worked.  We spent high draft picks on Ogbah and Nassibb last spring, and they have only showed flashes of what was expected.  For years and years the Browns have tried to make the player fit the scheme.  IMO, the good coaches, adapt the scheme to best fit the player.....You don't want your players out there thinking too much.  You just want them in their "comfort zone", reacting quickly and making plays....It seems simple in theory, though clearly it's not with our Browns...

let it ride

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Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

SAS wrote:

Isn't that the very nature of the difference between a DE/DT and a DE/OLB?  One's in the trenches routinely and matched up on big guys where brute strength is vital, the other is a more finesse type player who has to use speed, balance, and misdirection to avoid contact and pressure the QB?

Yes it is...however, nearly all of Garrett's success has come from the 3-4 DE position. He has not made many plays from the 3-4 OLB position despite the fact the Aggies played him there. Isn't that a red flag for you? He excelled at beating less talented players on the inside of the line. Asking him to beat more talented players on the outside, when he couldn't do it in college, is a recipe for disappointment.

That big and strong is what separates Garrett from most of the other EDGE players.  His size allows him to play a variety of positions and he could 100% play down in the DE spot in the NFL because of this strength.

And yeah, so Cleveland runs a 3-4 but we're in our  base defense, what... 30% of the time?

I agree 100% with you here, in fact, we may be built better for a 4-3, which is why we spend most of our time in that scheme.

While Garrett could play multiple positions, I haven't seen him be effective at multiple positions...I have seen Allen be effective at not only multiple positions, but multiple sides of the line as well. Garrett has been used on the right side exclusively in the 3 games I watched. He didn't line up a single down on the left side...is that because they want him going against the best tackles due to his ability, or is it because he is ineffective from the left side? These are just questions I think about when I evaluate a player.

SAS wrote:

I will be shocked if Garrett is available after a trade down scenario unless:

1. He suffers a serious injury between now and April.

2. We trade to #2 overall and #1 is a QB selection.

I won't be shocked in any way shape or form if A) QBs are taken at #1, #2 and possibly even #3 overall, depending on how many declare...B) Allen could easily be drafted ahead of Garrett. Depends a lot on scheme of the teams at the top of the draft. Player wise overall, I personally would put Allen ahead no matter the scheme, his versatility, again imho, is superior as well.

SAS wrote:

Must have been missing a bunch of college football this season.  The QB class is crap, but this is one of the best years I can remember for defensive players and especially pass rushers.  Also, RB and WR looks to be deep and talented.

I agree it is deep, and starters will be found in here...but I don't see a team changing player. I need to watch a lot more individual film to fill out my thoughts, but I was very excited to watch Garrett and after watching his 3 games, I am much less so...

I am very excited about players like Barnett, as you mentioned before. I watched his film and I see a future starter that will help any 4-3 team improve their run defense and be able to give them another pass rusher. Extremely solid game film...but not a team changer.

I'm talking about a draft with 5-6 guys that will give teams an opportunity to build their offense or defense around them...I just don't see it...including Garrett, unfortunately. I think he can be an important cog that will fit nicely in situations, but not an every down stuffer that will transform a defense.

As for the RBs and WRs, I agree...in fact RB is one of my favorite positions in this draft..BUT, how many RBs transform teams these days in the pass hungry NFL? I can guarantee you, this front office will not be drafting a RB with their first round draft picks..so, why get excited about them?

WRs are deep and I would be surprised if one isn't drafted this year again by the Browns, but Schuster-Smith may not even declare and I think he is a well rounded WR, but wouldn't take him in the first half of the draft. As late as last week, he was leaning towards staying another season. I love Mike Williams, but I'm not sure he will make it into my top 10 overall, probably end up falling into the mid teens and he may not declare either...Personally, I think the best receiver in this draft is Corey Davis and you have to go back to our argument of, was the lack of defensive talent he played against, or is he really that good? I think the Eagles pick will be in the top ten, tough to find a WR that falls into the top ten.

I'm excited to see players like Robinette and Dupre on film when I get around to it...but we are talking 2nd and 3rd rounders.

Time to become relevant again in Cleveland...HERE WE GO BROWNIES, HERE WE GO, WOOF WOOF!!!

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44

Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

@IrishDawg42

We'll just have to agree to disagree on Garrett, I suppose.

At least we can both agree that DeShone Kizer is a third round prospect at best, right?

;)

More of a prophet, less of a poster.™  #TeamCody

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45 ( edited by IrishDawg42 12-09-16 02:58)

Re: Out of the abyss, 2017 off season needs, wants, essentials

SAS wrote:

@IrishDawg42

We'll just have to agree to disagree on Garrett, I suppose.

At least we can both agree that DeShone Kizer is a third round prospect at best, right?

;)

LOL, I respectfully decline at this time to comment in order to not incriminate myself or opinion on the subject matter. I need at least 4 hours of studying his mechanics before I can discuss further...fair enough?


Besides, he may not even be in the 2017 draft class...He may be spending another year in South Bend...He has asked for an NFL eval, if it comes back 2nd round, he will stay in school.

Time to become relevant again in Cleveland...HERE WE GO BROWNIES, HERE WE GO, WOOF WOOF!!!

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